Old 20th November 2004, 20:07   #201
gaekwad2
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You forgot the 'and face eternal damnation' part.
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Old 20th November 2004, 20:09   #202
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a question

I don't mean this to sound anal or anything, really I'm curious.

god is just, and loving, right? why would such a god send people to hell to suffer forever simple because during their lives on earth, they made a mistake in not believeing in (or loving) him? couldn't they right their wrongs, so to speak? ie, after dying, and realizing they were wrong, promise to, i dunno, love him?

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Old 20th November 2004, 20:13   #203
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edit: no I will not succumb to religious debates.

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Old 20th November 2004, 20:57   #204
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Reminds me of a lyrics


The closer you get to the meaning
The sooner you'll know that you're dreaming
So it's on and on and on, oh it's on and on and on
It goes on and on and on, Heaven and Hell

Ever noticed that people who believe in Creationism look really unevolved?
- Bill Hicks
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Old 20th November 2004, 23:42   #205
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Oh, and shakey, you said "what kind of love is it?" It's exactly the kind of love that god supposedly created. Why not make love unconditional and permanent in his creations? afterall, he's the creator of the universe. Why bother making such a fickle definition of love when he knows that his creations will just violate it? It's like programming robots to think on their own and then demanding their allegiance or they rot in hell for eternity. Why bother when you can just program them to listen to you in the first place? It doesn't make sense when this supposed god is the creator of the very definitions of the things he strives to achieve.

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Old 21st November 2004, 00:41   #206
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Quote:
Originally posted by mikeflca
I don't mean this to sound anal or anything, really I'm curious.

god is just, and loving, right? why would such a god send people to hell to suffer forever simple because during their lives on earth, they made a mistake in not believeing in (or loving) him? couldn't they right their wrongs, so to speak?
God understands that we often choose ourselves over loving him. Nobody choses God all the time,its called sin, and that's what Jesus is about. God came to earth as a man, gave us an example to live by, and then was sacrificed for the forgiveness of man's sins, if we choose to accept it.
Quote:
ie, after dying, and realizing they were wrong, promise to, i dunno, love him?
Death is finality. It ends the "probation period" that we call life. This is like asking why doesn't God make himself 100% emperical? Well, because then that would, in all practicality, eliminate choice.
Quote:
Originally posted by General Geoff
Oh, and shakey, you said "what kind of love is it?" It's exactly the kind of love that god supposedly created. Why not make love unconditional and permanent in his creations? afterall, he's the creator of the universe. Why bother making such a fickle definition of love when he knows that his creations will just violate it? It's like programming robots to think on their own and then demanding their allegiance or they rot in hell for eternity. Why bother when you can just program them to listen to you in the first place? It doesn't make sense when this supposed god is the creator of the very definitions of the things he strives to achieve.
Love is love because you know there are options, but you choose otherwise.
Would you rather be a robot?

This whole line of reasoning doesn't make sence to me,
Are you really saying that just because God gave you the choice to love him rather than forcing you to, you don't want to? Doesn't that line of reasoning seem juvenial to you?


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Old 21st November 2004, 01:06   #207
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And how does the line "Love me or suffer for all eternity!" sound to you?

Could you love somebody who is threatening you this way (well apparently you can)?


General Geoff's question (the way I understand it) is "Why isn't his love for his children unconditional?" (the way parental love should be)
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Old 21st November 2004, 01:29   #208
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Well, is the glass half empty or half full?
because "love me and I'll never let you suffer again", sounds like a pretty good deal.
Understand, hell is a theological problem, and not everyone agrees that you'll suffer forever, because the Bible never explictly says that. There are many Christians that I know that believe that those condemed to hell will just simply cease to exist, or be "annihilated". I myself, am unsure about the exact implications of hell, all I know is that I don't want to end up there.
Now, God's love for his children is completely unconditional, but he never in his word calls those who do not love him his children.


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Old 21st November 2004, 01:33   #209
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Then what's this about a "probation period"?
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Old 21st November 2004, 01:35   #210
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Quote:
Originally posted by shakey_snake
Well, is the glass half empty or half full?
Depends, if the cup was full and was drank out of, then the cup would be half empty. If the cup was empty at first and then filled up, it would be half full.

Quote:
"love me and I'll never let you suffer again"
So now you need an incentive to love something?
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Old 21st November 2004, 03:58   #211
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Quote:
Originally posted by van der graaf
Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27.How should they die?
haha. sig material.
Quote:
Originally posted by MagnumOne
Of 284 million Americans:
Ninety three percent or 264 million of them are Christians.
249 million Christians belong to an organized church.
15 million are Christians who are not members of an organized church.
7% or 20 million are non-Christians
1.9% or 5.4 million are Muslims.
1.9% or 5.4 million are Jews.
0.6% or 1.7 million are atheists.
0.3% or 0.9 million are Buddhists.
0.3% or 0.9 million are other religionists.
2% or 5.7 million are of other religions or are non-religious.
2% or 5.7 million have no opinion about it.
where did you get those statistics?

"Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?"
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Old 21st November 2004, 04:05   #212
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Quote:
Originally posted by gaekwad2
Then what's this about a "probation period"?
That's what life kind of is; I time to decide if you love God or not.
Quote:
Originally posted by Schmeet
So now you need an incentive to love something?
No, but bravo on your ability to take something out of context.


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Old 21st November 2004, 05:23   #213
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Re: a question

Quote:
Originally posted by mikeflca
I don't mean this to sound anal or anything, really I'm curious.

god is just, and loving, right? why would such a god send people to hell to suffer forever simple because during their lives on earth, they made a mistake in not believeing in (or loving) him? couldn't they right their wrongs, so to speak? ie, after dying, and realizing they were wrong, promise to, i dunno, love him?
If you subscribe to the idea that Hell is being seperated from God, then it is just. God is just giving those people what they wanted. They didn't want God while they were alive, they don't get him when they're dead.

I can't believe that people said God should have just made everyone a bunch of robots that love him.
Try this experiment: program your computer to tell you that it loves you every ten minutes. Let me know how much more loved you feel.
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Old 21st November 2004, 18:03   #214
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Re: Re: a question

Quote:
Originally posted by Mattress
Try this experiment: program your computer to tell you that it loves you every ten minutes. Let me know how much more loved you feel.
Well it tells me that it loves me, but I don't know how far
this relationship can possably go
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Old 21st November 2004, 18:16   #215
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Quote:
Originally posted by shakey_snake
Love is love because you know there are options, but you choose otherwise.
Would you rather be a robot?

This whole line of reasoning doesn't make sence to me,
Are you really saying that just because God gave you the choice to love him rather than forcing you to, you don't want to? Doesn't that line of reasoning seem juvenial to you?
You're missing my point. If god invented love itself (as well as every thing else in existence, both physical and logical), why didn't he just make it unconditional for us to love him back? And who's to say that we aren't loving him at this very instant, without us knowing? You know, a subconsious type of thing?

I just don't understand how any kind of self-respecting deity can invent such a concept and then expect his own inferiour creations to take it upon themselves to just happen to love their creator, sight unseen.

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Old 21st November 2004, 19:03   #216
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love means nothing if hate and indifference aren't available options
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Old 21st November 2004, 19:45   #217
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existance is nothing without proof.

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Old 21st November 2004, 21:12   #218
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Quote:
Originally posted by shakey_snake
Well, is the glass half empty or half full?
because "love me and I'll never let you suffer again", sounds like a pretty good deal.
The more I think about it: No it doesn't.

It's still blackmail, only reworded. Any kidnapper can say "Do what I tell you and you won't suffer.", does that really sound good to you?
(hmm, maybe religious faith is some kind of Stockholm syndrome)
Quote:
Understand, hell is a theological problem, and not everyone agrees that you'll suffer forever, because the Bible never explictly says that. There are many Christians that I know that believe that those condemed to hell will just simply cease to exist, or be "annihilated". I myself, am unsure about the exact implications of hell, all I know is that I don't want to end up there.
And that's all that's necessary.

The idea of heaven and hell and life as a probation period makes perfect sense if you want to tie people in and control them.

Almost all religions (Buddhism may be an exception) obviously need something to scare people into submission.
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Old 22nd November 2004, 02:38   #219
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Quote:
If god invented love itself (as well as every thing else in existence, both physical and logical),
Sometimes I think that there are laws (or concepts) inherent in the existence of God (or perhaps necessary in an integral scheme-of-things sort of way) that God did not directly create. It seems that He operates on certain principles that are either self-imposed or exist apart from him for whatever reason.

--And if we accept God as valid logically, why would we expect to understand all His actions and decisions? We're slightly less than nothing by comparison.--
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Old 22nd November 2004, 11:05   #220
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to those who require a proof for God, have you required the same type of proof for Gravity or Yourself?


To the crazy Christians: perhaps you can explain to me this: How can God have no favorites yet have Isreal as his "chosen people"? How can God/Jesus/Holy Spirit love EVERYONE yet have only certain people whom he/they have CHOSEN to get to heaven?




The bottom line is that hte BIble is not infallable and it is entirely possible that God can exist.

No sig here folks.
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Old 22nd November 2004, 11:29   #221
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It's also entirely possible that pink leprechauns exist.

Except noone is saying you'll go to hell if you don't believe in them.
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Old 22nd November 2004, 11:37   #222
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Shakey, what about a group of people born on an island who have never heard of your god and your ways. Are they condemned to hell because they don't love your god?

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Old 22nd November 2004, 12:02   #223
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Did GqSkrub just ask for proof of gravity? You're not implying it...no you couldn't possibly think...no theres no way..

That was a joke right? please...tell me you were joking.. I mean... dear lord the sheer stup... nope.

no he did not just say that.. no way...

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Old 22nd November 2004, 16:45   #224
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Quote:
Originally posted by GqSkrub
to those who require a proof for God, have you required the same type of proof for Gravity or Yourself?
Yes.

Freedom of speech is the basic freedom of humanity. When you've lost that, you've lost everything.
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Old 22nd November 2004, 17:00   #225
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Quote:
Originally posted by bgesley
Did GqSkrub just ask for proof of gravity? You're not implying it...no you couldn't possibly think...no theres no way..

That was a joke right? please...tell me you were joking.. I mean... dear lord the sheer stup... nope.

no he did not just say that.. no way...
I'm also hoping that was a joke aswell.
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Old 22nd November 2004, 17:13   #226
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The current scientific model of gravity has been show to work in all tests. However, we already know that it is likely to be superseeded by a better model at some point in the future (when a theory is developed that encompasses both quantum physics and general relitivity, which is the biggest possible development in understanding in the future).

Indeed, without our current understanding of gravity, man would not have landed on the moon. The fact that we have sent probes to most/all of the planets in the solar system shows that our current understanding works very well.

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Old 22nd November 2004, 17:19   #227
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What you have to keep in mind about Gravity vs. God is that the theory of Gravity holds some (in fact, quite a lot of) predictive power - that is, knowing that theory allows us to predict that if we send a probe with X vector, then Y planet's gravitational pull will send the probe to Z.

However, the theory of God holds absolutely no such predictive power, and, as such, is scientifically useless.

Freedom of speech is the basic freedom of humanity. When you've lost that, you've lost everything.
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Old 22nd November 2004, 17:22   #228
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Quote:
Originally posted by xzxzzx
However, the theory of God holds absolutely no such predictive power, and, as such, is scientifically useless.
word.

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Old 22nd November 2004, 17:32   #229
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i love you guys.

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Old 22nd November 2004, 18:32   #230
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Quote:
Originally posted by xzxzzx
What you have to keep in mind about Gravity vs. God is that the theory of Gravity holds some (in fact, quite a lot of) predictive power - that is, knowing that theory allows us to predict that if we send a probe with X vector, then Y planet's gravitational pull will send the probe to Z.

However, the theory of God holds absolutely no such predictive power, and, as such, is scientifically useless.
Something similar could be said about the theory of evolution.
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Old 22nd November 2004, 18:43   #231
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Quote:
Originally posted by gaekwad2
The more I think about it: No it doesn't.

It's still blackmail, only reworded. Any kidnapper can say "Do what I tell you and you won't suffer.", does that really sound good to you?
(hmm, maybe religious faith is some kind of Stockholm syndrome)

And that's all that's necessary.

The idea of heaven and hell and life as a probation period makes perfect sense if you want to tie people in and control them.

Almost all religions (Buddhism may be an exception) obviously need something to scare people into submission.
I still think that this argument is a matter of preception. I think the part that you are not understanding is that when God creates the new heavens and earth as promised in Revelation, they will be perfect, and God will fellowship with his church, and there will be no room for sin. So, in order to promise something better, there has to be something worse. That just happens to be hell. And the people who have been sent there have choosen to go there.
Quote:
Originally posted by CraigF
existance is nothing without proof.
Then how does proof exist?
Answer: God.
Quote:
Originally posted by General Geoff
You're missing my point. If god invented love itself (as well as every thing else in existence, both physical and logical), why didn't he just make it unconditional for us to love him back? And who's to say that we aren't loving him at this very instant, without us knowing? You know, a subconsious type of thing?
God didn't invent Love, God is love. God is the meaning of is.
Quote:

I just don't understand how any kind of self-respecting deity can invent such a concept and then expect his own inferiour creations to take it upon themselves to just happen to love their creator, sight unseen.
God doesn't expect, god wants, he craves it, but since the fall, he doesn't expect it.
Quote:
Originally posted by Phyltre
Sometimes I think that there are laws (or concepts) inherent in the existence of God (or perhaps necessary in an integral scheme-of-things sort of way) that God did not directly create. It seems that He operates on certain principles that are either self-imposed or exist apart from him for whatever reason.
i would say that this is very accurate. However, these don't exist apart from him, but instead, he is the very embodiment of these principles.
Quote:
Originally posted by Raz
Shakey, what about a group of people born on an island who have never heard of your god and your ways. Are they condemned to hell because they don't love your god?
I've actually already answered this one. First understand, if someone has heard an accurate depiction of the Gospel, I think it is nessicery that they're heart be moved to the point of accepting him as savior. But should this not happen, I do think that those peoples' hearts (i've been using the word 'heart' in this posts figuratively) will be fairly judged by Christ. Job was not a Jew, he was from the east, but he still found favor inthe sight of God.
Quote:
Originally posted by GqSkrub
To the crazy Christians: perhaps you can explain to me this: How can God have no favorites yet have Isreal as his "chosen people"? How can God/Jesus/Holy Spirit love EVERYONE yet have only certain people whom he/they have CHOSEN to get to heaven?
The bottom line is that hte BIble is not infallable and it is entirely possible that God can exist.
God choose Israel as his chosen people do to Abraham's faithfulness. What this means is that God choose Israel to be the culture that the Messiah would be born into. That is pretty much all God's election for Jews was was, more or less.


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Old 22nd November 2004, 19:35   #232
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So basically, you're saying that god is flawed and is a hypocrite because he covets love. Good job.

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Old 22nd November 2004, 19:38   #233
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Quote:
Originally posted by shakey_snake
Then how does proof exist?
Answer: God.
True proofs only exist in maths (and the axioms contained therein [such as 1+1=2]).

Humans created maths.

(Sure, we do use mathematical formalities to descibe the universe in science, but science is not in the business of proof, science is in the business of prediction. Similarly, law is in the business of "beyond resonable doubt" which is not proof.)

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Old 22nd November 2004, 19:41   #234
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Quote:
Originally posted by shakey_snake
I still think that this argument is a matter of preception. I think the part that you are not understanding is that when God creates the new heavens and earth as promised in Revelation, they will be perfect, and God will fellowship with his church, and there will be no room for sin. So, in order to promise something better, there has to be something worse. That just happens to be hell. And the people who have been sent there have choosen to go there.
Nobody will be sent to hell against their will?

And what is "in order to promise something better, there has to be something worse." supposed to mean?
Is heaven so unattractive that you have to create hell to make it look good in comparison?
Quote:
Then how does proof exist?
Answer: God.
No offense but that's just stupid!
Quote:
God didn't invent Love, God is love. God is the meaning of is.
Creative linguistics, respect.
But what does that mean in the case of a man loving another man?

And of course then these sentences should read:
Quote:
God didn't invent God, God God God. God God the meaning of God.
God is a word, nothing more, nothing less.
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Old 22nd November 2004, 19:42   #235
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Science is the pursuit of fact; philosophy is the pursuit of truth. Math is the only absolute when it comes to proofs.

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Old 22nd November 2004, 19:55   #236
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Quote:
Originally posted by General Geoff
Science is the pursuit of fact; philosophy is the pursuit of truth. Math is the only absolute when it comes to proofs.
Then how do you explain imaginary numbers?

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Old 22nd November 2004, 20:11   #237
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Can you show me a church that worships imaginary numbers?

Maybe I'd even join.

"Oh square root of minus one, thy kingdom come!"
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Old 22nd November 2004, 20:11   #238
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numbers are nothing but imaginary. The number "15" doesn't actually exist; it's just a logical placeholder to represent a certain amount of things. Now here's a better question: What's the square root of -1 (and don't say i)?

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Old 22nd November 2004, 20:14   #239
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But I am the square root of -1
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Old 22nd November 2004, 20:14   #240
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Quote:
Originally posted by CaboWaboAddict
Then how do you explain imaginary numbers?
I <3 imaginary numbers.

(they just came about because some mathematicians thought it might be interesting to see what would happen if sqrt(-1) did exist. turns out they are interesting and useful [the numbers not the mathematicians ])

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