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Old 6th February 2013, 16:02   #1
c627627
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Any way to delay start of first song only for a fraction of a second?

Second and subsequent songs play just fine but if I double click on a music file and Winamp launches for the first time, sometimes the very beginning of the song is cut off just a bit.

Is there any way to maybe delay the first song start by a fraction of a second to avoid that problem?
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Old 8th February 2013, 22:53   #2
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Is there any way to maybe delay the first song start by a fraction of a second to avoid that problem?
There is no way to do this, afaik. Other than this issue, it must be nice to have such a fast responding system.

You may be able to slow the startup slightly by adding useful plug-ins. I do not recommend adding plug-ins that you do not need. But look through those written or updated by DrO (link below) for any that may be useful to you.

http://nunzioweb.com/daz/plugins.html

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Old 8th February 2013, 23:20   #3
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plug-ins won't really help. it is most likely due to a lot of things going on at the same time when Winamp starts which causes the slight skip in audio output - which other plug-ins being installed is more likely to exacerbate as the play on start (via the method being done) happens pretty much without the means for plug-ins to block it, etc.

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Old 9th February 2013, 16:30   #4
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Quote:
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...it must be nice to have such a fast responding system. http://nunzioweb.com/daz/plugins.html
I do have a fast system but with even faster new Intel architecture coming in a few months, why wait for more people to report this problem?

Delaying initial starting Playback for x milliseconds (as an option, just an option) would resolve this, would it not? If yes, what is the procedure to have this addressed as a bug to be fixed?
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Old 9th February 2013, 20:22   #5
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because for most people it's not something this is noticeable - there are so many factors which can cause it to happen, irrespective of you having a fast system or not. adding a delay is just a fudge and yes that might solve things for you but it increases the complexity in the code implementation which is more likely to cause issues for more people rather than less. plus this might be something specific to the encoding of your files (as i've not heard such a glitch in a quick test - using mp3 files with details about the silence at the start to skip).

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Old 10th February 2013, 04:17   #6
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Thanks. It makes sense what you're saying but if this problem can be replicated maybe then we could justify including an option (just an option) for an X millisecond delay.

So I took a closer look. I have a quadruple boot of Win 7/XP/8/Vista which allowed for additional testing. I also have a regular sound card and also sound going out from video card HDMI to receiver.

Yes, some files are affected, some are not. The ones that are affected only show up when the sound output is through video card's HDMI out to my receiver.

However, the same file comes through just fine when played through sound card to small stereo speakers.


So the problem only appears with video card HDMI out to receiver connection and then only on some files.
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Old 14th February 2013, 18:20   #7
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Tested the problem also on a .wav file + SPDIF Sound Card connection.

Problem appears on initial start only. Delaying initial playback on launch by X milliseconds would resolve the problem.
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Old 12th March 2013, 18:01   #8
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If there is any way that delay on first start by xx milliseconds can be included in the upcoming new version as an option (just an option), I sure would be grateful.
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Old 12th March 2013, 18:05   #9
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nope, i've already explained what you wanting is too niche and it is not a true solution (and likely breaking other functionality to alter known code is not something that is wanted whilst trying to stabilise the beta).
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Old 12th March 2013, 21:56   #10
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I understand and thank you for replying.

I would appreciate your thoughts on this issue as far as possible cause. I believe I have ruled out file encoding as this happens with uncompressed wav music files. Only the initial start is affected, subsequently, there is no problem.

I tried the same file my 10 year old system and it starts immediately without a problem.


I can only replicate the problem on my current system if I reboot and then only when I double click on the music file which starts Winamp and it plays with a slight initial delay. Everything from then on is OK until next reboot and initial start.

Since I have identical installs on Windows 7/XP/8 I can replicate this on all three OS.
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Old 4th April 2014, 14:49   #11
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Where can a plugin request be made to delay Winamp playback by a fraction of a second

When Winamp launches for the first time, the very beginning of the song is cut off just a bit on my system and I think I know why. This may be due to the long HDMI cable I am using to connect the computer to the stereo because the problem is not present if sound goes through small speakers which are directly connected to the computer and are right next to the computer - only if the sound goes through the (long) HDMI cable.

A split second delay on first playback would deal with this and make Winamap usable with long HDMi connections. The problem does not appear after Winamp is launched - only when first launching it.


I believe the problem is not widely reported because not many people use long HDMI cables. Is there a forum where a request can be made for a plugin that would resolve this problem by introducing a split second playback delay on first launch?
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Old 4th April 2014, 15:05   #12
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the length of the cable is very unlikely to be your issue. if it was, it would have to be an insanely long cable to allow for the speed of electron movement to become noticeable.

it is more likely a combination of Winamp taking resources to load and things not being passed through fast enough to the hdmi aspects (all determined by things outside of Winamp's control i.e. the video card drivers could be the cause or even the video card itself if you say it's consistent across multiple setups for the very first time audio is output) that causes this one time glitch.

as i'd have hoped by now you've looked for newer system drivers and / or reported the issue to the manufacturer to see if they have any suggestions as Winamp will just output what it can to the OS and then that (and it's drivers) is what determines how / where audio goes to.

and i'm really not sure a plug-in would even be viable for blocking things in the manner you're wanting to do (or even finding someone who knows enough about how Winamp does playback to try to manipulate things in the manner you're wanting).
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Old 4th April 2014, 20:42   #13
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DrO, that post was actually very helpful as it lead me to simply replicate the problem using other media players and I got the same results.

You are correct that HDMI video card is not passing through the sound fast enough. This has nothing to do with Winamp.

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Also lack of system resources is definitely not to blame here. I think the video card is the problem here. Thank you.

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Old 4th April 2014, 21:56   #14
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or the card / driver is ok and the final output device is the point of the issue. but at least you've got a rough area to work with now to try to track down and hopefully resolve the issue.
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Old 4th April 2014, 23:06   #15
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Stellar advice! I've deduced the problem to the stereo passing through the signal.

The signal is OK and without any delay when the computer's HDMI out is connected directly to TV. The delay appears only when the HDMI cable is connected to the receiver and passed through to the TV through the receiver.

All HDMI inputs on the receiver produce this delay.

Thanks again. I don't know why the receiver does this but it is the culprit.
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Old 5th April 2014, 20:42   #16
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HDMI is known for input lag, something gamers care a lot about. (different from display response time). it affects audio as well.

http://www.displaylag.com/

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Old 7th April 2014, 17:49   #17
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Thanks for getting me on the right track.

I wanted to experiment with the receiver to see if anything affects the audio lag. However, at this time, there is no lag. This leads me to believe that the lag is intermittent, I can only speculate on the cause.


When it appears again, I'll try to see what makes it go away.
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Old 7th April 2014, 17:54   #18
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well, something else I thought of, that may explain the cause and intermittency, is that sometimes these things "sleep" until they auto-sense a signal, and that takes a moment to wake em up. so once awake, no issue. and then they stay awake for a given amount of time until they sleep again. if true, its likely hardwired into the circuit and not adjustable.

I could be way off the mark, just a guess.

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Old 7th April 2014, 18:42   #19
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Possibly. I will post everything I find about this over time, in this thread.


This problem is not unique to me, it will be useful to know exactly why it happens and I'll figure it out over time. If it turns out to be a fraction of a second requirement so that it can awake from sleep, if it happens to be a problem that cannot be permanently fixed, then I see no alternative to either living with it or creating software with an option of a fraction of a second delay on first launch.

So that when you double click on a music file and it launches the music playing software for the very first time, there would be a fraction of a second delay. I fully understand if Winamp cannot have this feature but I would not see alternative to fixing that problem other than using software with that feature, would you?


I'll say this about your theory though, when it happens, I can replicate it by closing Winamp, then double clicking on a music file to launch Winamp that way and replicate the initial audio lag. I shouldn't say Winamp, since this happens with *every* music player.


But once Winamp is already launched, the second song and subsequent songs have no lag. Therefore the problem exists on initial launch only. And only on HDMI and then only if HDMI is connected to receiver, not if HDMI is connected to say, TV set directly.
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Old 7th April 2014, 19:19   #20
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Quote:
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I'll say this about your theory though, when it happens, I can replicate it by closing Winamp, then double clicking on a music file to launch Winamp that way and replicate the initial audio lag. I shouldn't say Winamp, since this happens with *every* music player.

But once Winamp is already launched, the second song and subsequent songs have no lag. Therefore the problem exists on initial launch only. And only on HDMI and then only if HDMI is connected to receiver, not if HDMI is connected to say, TV set directly.
well, it is the receiver HDMI I am thinking is the one doing the "sleeping." and it may be the case that closing an app on the computer immediately "offs" the computers HDMI, which immediately causes sleeping on the receiver HDMI.

again, just my stab in the dark. I'm not a dev btw, just a user like you.

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Old 7th April 2014, 20:23   #21
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Correct.

There are many speculative questions. Is there a Receiver feature that can affect this? Are only low end receivers affected by this? Are only some receiver brands affected by this?

What is the solution for people who have their computers connected to their main stereo receivers and do not use computer speakers? This problem shouldn't be ignored.


Receiver in question is a relatively low end Pioneer VSX-521
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Old 7th April 2014, 21:21   #22
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well, on my TV, i have all the HDMI's connect to it, and then i run the digital audio coax out into the receiver. that's one workaround.

but you can't assume that winamp causing a delay in playback will fix the issue either, b/c its unknown if what i am suggesting is correct, and even if it is correct, its unknown as to the precise chain of events, and if a delay by winamp would somehow affect it for the better.

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Old 7th April 2014, 23:33   #23
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Hi c627627,

I was thinking along the same line as MrS (that your issue is basic to the way your receiver works).

Thanx for letting us know what receiver you have. Your receiver supports the latest HDMI 1.4a specification which allows various automatic setups depending on the sensed input. On page 37 of the Pioneer VSX-521's operating manual it states, "HDMI format digital audio transmissions require a longer time to be recognized. Due to this, interruption in the audio may occur when switching between audio formats or beginning playback."

Yeah, the bad news is always buried somewhere near the end.

I doubt that yours is the only A/V receiver that does this. It appears that this is something that the receiver vendors will need to address, if enough of their customers complain about it. In any case, there is nothing Winamp (or other software digital media players) can do about it. Having a little extra silence encoded at the start of every music file may help, but that is not an option if you like gap-less playback.

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Old 8th April 2014, 15:44   #24
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Hi. It is much easier living with this knowing what the cause is. Thanks to you guys, the culprit, which is the Receiver, has been found. If you don't mind and if it doesn't bother anybody, I would like to continue posting in this thread about various things I am doing about this, if it is bothers anybody I hope they would simply unsubscribe.


My goal is to further understand why the problem does not always appear. Just now, the problem can be replicated again, giving me the opportunity to figure out what steps lead to it (temporarily) disappearing.

By the way, thank you for acknowledging that the problem is wide-spread because it's so easy for people who do not have this problem, to simply wave it away as not important. Well, it is important .


Steps attempted to get the receiver into state where it does not exhibit this problem:

No solution:
1. Turned OFF/ON using remote

2. Switched receiver settings like Direct, Stereo, Adv Surr, etc. All have this problem.

3. Physically disconnected Receiver from wall. Waited couple of minutes. Reconnected.

4. Switched Receiver to DVD, started a DVD disc from DVD player. Stop DVD. Switched back to computer HDMI input on Receiver.

5. Disabled video card HDMI output. Re-enable it.

6. Set different video resolutions being sent through HDMI.

7. Physically disconnected HDMI cable from computer.

8. Physically disconnected HDMI cable from both computer and Receiver.
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Old 8th April 2014, 15:55   #25
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Aminifu, do you think what you found in the manual (interruption in the audio may occur when... beginning playback.) is something that is present in some but not all receivers?


That would be a major selling point when buying a receiver, don't you think? It would be useful to know how to tell if a Receiver is advanced enough not to have this problem, I don't even know if this is a problem with all or most Receivers when it comes to HDMI format digital audio transmissions?
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Old 8th April 2014, 16:20   #26
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You can't double click on the file too quickly after closing Winamap or else the problem cannot be replicated. I am starting to question whether the problem ever went away, I'm pretty sure it cold not be replicated yesterday. Time will tell.


I do believe that the most important piece of information was found by Aminifu in the manual. It leads to the important question already occurred to me: are there Receivers which have a feature that takes care of this or

since "HDMI format digital audio transmissions require a longer time to be recognized. Due to this, interruption in the audio may occur when beginning playback."


Are there any receivers that take care of this and if so, how can you tell when buying?

I asked here, not sure where else I can ask...
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1526396/hd...nning-playback
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Old 9th April 2014, 01:53   #27
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Hi c627627,

I'm not an expert on A/V receivers and do not know the price range of the current 'advanced' models. It seems to me that 'advanced' (sensing the input and responding appropriately) is part of the problem. Maybe the relatively low-end models are not advanced enough.

The ability to sense and respond with no noticeable delay could be a selling point or could be a short-coming that the vendors don't want widely known, if no one is able to do it. Less advanced receivers do not try to sense the input. They either expect a certain thing or let you switch to what will be used.

It does take time (however short) to sense and respond. Maybe the higher-end models have some way to compensate for the delay or complete the process super quickly. You could ask Pioneer's tech support. A carefully worded (diplomatic) request for info may work. Your experience on the AVS site shows how testy some people can get, by the way a question is asked or the way a response to an answer is given.

What I have learned (the hard way) is to take the time to research beyond the surface before buying any new gear. The biggest problem is knowing what to look for and the right questions to ask. So I go online, get the manual (not the User's Guide), and read all the cautions, warnings, and troubleshooting info I can find. I then look for a few user reviews (good and bad). And sometimes after all that, I still get surprised by something. So I've also learned to get the exact terms of the item's return policy, if any.

Anyway, the good thing for you is that the clipping doesn't happen each time and the clipped part of the music is very small.

Good luck.

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Old 9th April 2014, 02:44   #28
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Quote:
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No solution:
did u try mine?

Quote:
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well, on my TV, i have all the HDMI's connect to it, and then i run the digital audio coax out into the receiver. that's one workaround.

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Old 9th April 2014, 02:56   #29
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MrSinatra,

Is this a passive pass thru or does the TV need to be on for this to work?

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Old 9th April 2014, 03:10   #30
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prob depends on the TV, but in most cases I would guess not passive, esp since most TVs have multiple HDMI inputs.

also, the TV has to be set for PCM or whatever you want to use. but for some situations, its a great way to do things, b/c it makes it easy for others to operate. meaning, most people can handle picking an input on a TV via onscreen icons, whereas trying to get them to figure out what to push beyond "on" on a receiver is usually futile.

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Old 9th April 2014, 06:33   #31
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MrSinatra, I have to have the HDMI go into the receiver because HD audio cannot go through digital audio out, only HDMI can and I need HD audio to reach the receiver from computer. There are other reasons too.


Aminifu, thanks for all advice. I certainly regret wording things the way that I did over there, it's no excuse that I didn't intend to hurt that guy's feelings.

Your observation about low end receivers makes sense since the problem does not appear when HDMI cable goes directly to TV. I don't know, I still say that ability of receiver to handle initial first play without delay, would be useful information to know when purchasing a receiver and I have no idea how to go finding out if the receiver can do that or not.

Clearly this issue is by design of the Receiver.
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Old 9th April 2014, 06:35   #32
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prob depends on the TV, but in most cases I would guess not passive, esp since most TVs have multiple HDMI inputs.

...
Ok, I understand your points. Sounds like a good work-around for some situations (only 1 more cable), but it seems a bit much to have to turn on the TV just to listen to some music from the computer thru the A/V receiver's speakers. Especially since there is only a spot of trouble with the first song played.

But, it's up to c627627 and what's acceptable to him.

My systems are too far apart to use HDMI cabling. I just run coax from my computer soundcard's PCM output to my A/V receiver when I want to use it's speakers to listen to music from the computer. But I mostly use the speaker system connected to my computer. Sounds almost as good.

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Old 9th April 2014, 06:39   #33
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I still say that ability of receiver to handle initial first play without delay, would be useful information to know when purchasing a receiver and I have no idea how to go finding out if the receiver can do that or not.
Ask the maker of the receiver. They all have websites offering customer support.

I'm not sure what you mean by "HD audio cannot go through digital audio out". What kind of HD audio are you referring to (DTS or something like that)? If your sound card/chip can handle the input, it can sent PCM digital audio out.

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Old 9th April 2014, 07:08   #34
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but it seems a bit much
I just wanted to know if that workaround worked. I wasn't suggesting it as the ultimate solution.

it does however allow you to do visualizations on the TV.

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I'm not sure what you mean by "HD audio cannot go through digital audio out". What kind of HD audio are you referring to (DTS or something like that)?
same question I have. perhaps its his only digital out on his computer, or maybe there is some other technological bottleneck or lack of a feature somewhere.

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Old 9th April 2014, 14:07   #35
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Oh sure, we can definitely talk about that. There are other reasons but I have a Blu-Ray drive on my computer. To send out TrueHD and DTS-HD you require HDMI. Other connections cannot send out TrueHD and DTS-HD. By the way, Windows Vista/7/8 or later are also required, Windows XP cannot send out High Resolution Audio even through HDMI. Just FYI.


Also FYI, what is the physical distance between your computer and your receiver, long HDMI cables sometimes go on sale with prices slashed quite a bit.
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Old 9th April 2014, 20:42   #36
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I can't say one way or the other if only HDMI can carry "TrueHD" or "DTS-HD" signals but if you have any links that spell all this out, what can and can't be done and why, I'd love to read em.

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Old 9th April 2014, 22:01   #37
c627627
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I found that out the hard way personally. But sure, here's proof from HDMI.org itself:

"S/PDIF does not have the ability to support the data rates required by Dolby TrueHD, and thus will not support it."

http://www.hdmi.org/learningcenter/kb.aspx?c=11
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Old 9th April 2014, 22:49   #38
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interesting.

as noted here:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1420486/tr...hd-over-s-pdif

the reason may be copy protection, not data rates.

perhaps one solution to your problem would be a pref in winamp that sends a quarter-second bit of nearly inaudible noise prior to the song whenever winamp is coming back from a stopped state. the problem is this is a very niche issue, affecting very few people, and really the onus is on the hardware. but if its not hard to do for the winamp devs, (say, in the output plugin), I could see it being a reasonable request. you could also create your own bit of nearly inaudible noise file, and simply start each playlist with it.

PENN STATE Radio or http://www.LION-Radio.org/
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BUG #1 = Winamp skips short tracks
Wish #1 = Multiple Column Sorting
Wish #2 = Add TCMP/Compilation editing
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Old 10th April 2014, 00:01   #39
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This is not that important, but High Definition Audio maxes out at a lot more than the 1600kbps bandwidth limit of S/PDIF. So.. it's nice that some guy said that he 'heard' it's because of Copy Protection but the numbers don't add up. S/PDIF cannot handle max rates of High Def Audio.


On the Winamp mod, yea, we established that is *not* going to happen.


I do not have a single play list by the way. This happens when double clicking on a music file which launches any music player to start playing the music file. It would have to only be for initial launch.


The last thing you said about this being 'niche' is unclear:


We now know thanks to the post above, that the manufacturers specifically said that it is by design that computers connected to receivers through HDMI will have the delay.


My followup question, the most important question, still stands:
How many Receivers connected to computers through HDMI only are made to by design delay playback on first launch?


Some? All? How can we tell before buying one?
Perhaps people who do not have their computers connected to their main Receivers through HDMI cables *only* are posting "well this doesn't happen to me, it shouldn't happen to you" posts.
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Old 10th April 2014, 05:07   #40
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its niche b/c most people using winamp don't listen to it via HDMI on their stereos, nor do they listen to TrueHD source material or similar.

and what post does it say all receivers do this?

and what is the maximum bitrate for TrueHD?

you could btw just create a shortcut to a small noise file, click that first, then click whatever u want after that.

there are also some 3rd party output plugins, so maybe u could get one of them to insert a pref to send a noise burst.

PENN STATE Radio or http://www.LION-Radio.org/
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BUG #1 = Winamp skips short tracks
Wish #1 = Multiple Column Sorting
Wish #2 = Add TCMP/Compilation editing
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