Old 10th September 2014, 13:53   #81
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I totally understand that the discussion is academic and I appreciate the responses, thx. I know there is no time for this presently and won't be for quite a while.

however I find that last post very interesting, b/c on the one hand it doesn't seem workable, and yet it gives me another idea.

the problem, or reason why it doesn't seem workable, is that if users "just click columns as needed" currently that sorts, or makes that column, the last one clicked, the primary sort; and its also used for alternating ascending / descending. so, as is, I don't see how that could work without breaking current behavior.

HOWEVER, the idea this gives me, is what if you had a 4th button in the 3-button-area by the search box, that normally was "off" but when clicked, became "on" and depressed looking, whose function was to allow a user to set multiple column sort orders for any given smartview. click the 4th button again (back to off and no longer depressed looking), and the order is set and clicking columns won't change it.

so, when 'on' a user could click columns in the sort order they wanted, and then when the sort order was achieved, clicked again to set it in stone and return clicking-on-columns to current normal behavior. when the user wanted the custom order removed, they could right click the columns in any given pane, and pick "Return Column Sorting to defaults" via the current right click context menu.

there would be no visual indication a custom sort was being used if one was being used, or what that sort order is, but u seem to want it that way UI-wise, and this idea only requires one button needs added to the UI.

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Old 10th September 2014, 16:51   #82
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My idea of how this would work is along the lines of what DrO said (in post #80) and thus would change the current behavior. Upon opening a view, the 1st column heading clicked on would set the 1st order sort. The next column heading clicked would set the 2nd order sort and so on. If no column heading is clicked on then the first column (from left to right) would set the 1st order sort by default. The ascending or descending order within each column would be controlled from a context menu for each column.

There would be no permanent 2nd, 3rd and so on sorting arrangement maintained. Each time a view is opened, the user could select the desired sorting order or stay with the default. So changing a particular multi-column sort order would require the view be closed and reopened. Alternatively, a preference option could be added to maintain non-default arrangements (which would have to be disabled in order to change arrangements).

The method used to select which columns are visible and their arrangement from left to right for each view would remain like it currently is and then maintained once selected or changed.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents for the academic record.

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Old 10th September 2014, 17:05   #83
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i think this is just reinforcing my fear and concern over this request.
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Old 10th September 2014, 17:16   #84
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Forget about it DrO. I, for one, have accepted that you're not going to volunteer to do anything for this request. I just wanted to put my idea on the record for what may happen in the future.

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Old 10th September 2014, 17:21   #85
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the point i'm trying to make is that multiple things are coming out yet none seem as simple to either implement or use as all of the "me too" posts seemed to imply. maybe if i properly understood how it's meant to work in actual use (which seems like i'd need to use another player to see that) then maybe i'd change my view. but as things have been put forward / suggested, if i'm not following, how on earth am i meant to try to explain it to those higher up to get it something that would considered for official development. but as you say, i'll now forget about it.
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Old 10th September 2014, 17:28   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrO View Post
maybe if i properly understood how it's meant to work in actual use (which seems like i'd need to use another player to see that) ...
Sounds like an idea for later. I've pretty much stuck with Winamp for the past few years and have nothing to suggest you look at at this time.

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Old 10th September 2014, 22:41   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aminifu View Post
My idea of how this would work is along the lines of what DrO said (in post #80) and thus would change the current behavior. Upon opening a view, the 1st column heading clicked on would set the 1st order sort. The next column heading clicked would set the 2nd order sort and so on. If no column heading is clicked on then the first column (from left to right) would set the 1st order sort by default. The ascending or descending order within each column would be controlled from a context menu for each column.

There would be no permanent 2nd, 3rd and so on sorting arrangement maintained. Each time a view is opened, the user could select the desired sorting order or stay with the default. So changing a particular multi-column sort order would require the view be closed and reopened. Alternatively, a preference option could be added to maintain non-default arrangements (which would have to be disabled in order to change arrangements).

The method used to select which columns are visible and their arrangement from left to right for each view would remain like it currently is and then maintained once selected or changed.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents for the academic record.
I'm not trying to be rude, but I don't see any of the above as workable. keeping current behavior is first of all, necessary. people want to be able to re-sort the primary column on the fly without switching views or right clicking, as well as change ascending / descending. so this is a non-starter right there. (the only current behavior I advocate changing is the hidden "under the hood" aspects of sorting that currently exist, but even that doesn't have to happen, I just think it should b/c the effects are not obvious or intuitive).

also, people bothering to do this at all are more likely than not going to want to set a sort order and have it maintained for that pane, in that smartview. of course they will need a way to undo it, but that shouldn't be "just changing views"

I'm totally open to suggestions for implementation and how to put it into the UI, etc, but some sensible ground rules need to be established.

again, I realize the discussion is academic but the discussion is worth having so the goals are fully understood before anyone tries to code anything.

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Old 11th September 2014, 16:23   #88
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... keeping current behavior is first of all, necessary. people want to be able to re-sort the primary column on the fly without switching views or right clicking, as well as change ascending / descending. ...
How is it possible to change behavior and keep the current behavior at the same time? This is obviously not what you mean, but it is what you're saying. What primary column are you referring to and what kind of re-sort other than switching the alphanumeric order from ascending to descending or the reverse?

Currently, clicking on a column heading causes that column to sort in ascending or descending alphanumeric order. The affect on the other visible columns in the view may follow some 'hidden rules' or maybe it just appears that way.

For instance, currently in the local library audio view, clicking on the artist column heading groups everything by artist (all items by the same artist are grouped together). Then clicking on the year column heading groups everything by year (all items with the same year are grouped together) and the grouping of all items by the same artist is lost.

What I suggested means that clicking on the artist column heading first would group all items by the same artist together. Then clicking on the year column heading second would keep all the items by the same artist grouped together but rearrange them by year. Then clicking on the album column heading third would keep all items by the same artist grouped together arranged by year and then rearranged that by grouping those items by the albums they are associated with.

The idea is to keep the initial tag grouping together and then be able to rearrange it by selecting subsequent tags.

I also suggested that controlling ascending or descending alphanumeric order be done by a context menu command. Alternatively, it could also be controlled by clicking on the same column heading (tag) more than once before clicking on another column heading.

I don't understand what is a "non-starter" about that. What is clear is that there are different ideas about how to implement ML multiple column sorting. As DrO said, a working example of any implementation would be much more helpful that what you and I and others have tried to suggest in writing.

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Old 11th September 2014, 16:41   #89
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yes, its obviously NOT what I am saying. its possible to add new features without changing current behavior, and I am sure DrO or any dev would always want to do that if possible and sensible.

how is it possible? by leaving current behaviors intact, meaning, allow things to continue to work as they already do. so what one does then is add a new feature or method on top of it. ergo, my suggested hyphens/icons, or my 4th button, as previous posted.

fyi, currently the "primary" column is whichever one is actually clicked on and sorted; its denoted by the arrow/triangle. so my point was that people often want to only change that primary column quickly just by clicking a column, i.e. how it works right now. your suggestion would kill that behavior, as you stated, and that can't happen.

I understood your suggestion, and I think if you re-read my posts, you'll understand why your suggestion is a non-starter.

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Old 11th September 2014, 16:55   #90
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... I think if you re-read my posts, you'll understand why your suggestion is a non-starter.
The only thing that tells me is that my idea is different from yours. It does not tell me why my idea is any more workable or non-workable than yours. Both ideas have been presented, let's leave it at that.

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Old 11th September 2014, 17:00   #91
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all suggestions are pretty much non-starters so there's no need for anyone to claim theirs is better than the others as none seem easy or intuitive (which matches with the whole request in general).

anyhoo as its just academic, without some sort of mock / working example to try / compare against, its best to let this request just die for now.
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Old 11th September 2014, 17:51   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aminifu View Post
The only thing that tells me is that my idea is different from yours. It does not tell me why my idea is any more workable or non-workable than yours. Both ideas have been presented, let's leave it at that.
this is why I try not to talk to you. I was EXPLICIT as to whats wrong with your idea in my last post. and all you can do is ignore that, and then attack ME. typical of you.

just so its clear, I have bolded below the explicit parts of the last post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSinatra View Post
yes, its obviously NOT what I am saying. its possible to add new features without changing current behavior, and I am sure DrO or any dev would always want to do that if possible and sensible.

how is it possible? by leaving current behaviors intact, meaning, allow things to continue to work as they already do. so what one does then is add a new feature or method on top of it. ergo, my suggested hyphens/icons, or my 4th button, as previous posted.

fyi, currently the "primary" column is whichever one is actually clicked on and sorted; its denoted by the arrow/triangle. so my point was that people often want to only change that primary column quickly just by clicking a column, i.e. how it works right now. your suggestion would kill that behavior, as you stated, and that can't happen.

I understood your suggestion, and I think if you re-read my posts, you'll understand why your suggestion is a non-starter.
previous posts also had reasons.

and just to add more explicit reasons:

no one wants to have to right click to change ascending or descending. that's a TERRIBLE idea. it breaks current behavior and its cumbersome.

as I also mentioned previously, no one wants to have custom hierarchy column sorting lost just b/c they switch views, as you proposed.

and no one wants every column they click on to become the next sorting rule. and no one wants this to be the default behavior of clicking on columns.

I could go on, but there's no need to. the outcry from users after 15 years of expected behavior would be deafening. how can that not be obvious to you?

and if you would bother to read my posts instead of skim them, you would see that my 4th button suggestion basically is what you want to have happen, with the important distinction that a user must first initiate it, create the desired order by clicking columns in desired order, and then set it by deactivating it [the proposed 4th button]. and more importantly, perhaps most importantly, it preserves existing behavior.

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Old 12th September 2014, 08:54   #93
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Hybrid Behavior for Multiple Item Sort

Maybe, as you suggested, DrO, all these ideas are non-starters. But...for my other two colleagues here, I'd like to toss out yet another idea.

As it currently stands, when you click on the top of a column in the Local Media view(s) of the ML, the column (and ONLY that column) SORTS. At that point, a small arrow icon appears, indicating the sort direction, up or down. When you sort again on the same column, the icon (and the sort order) reverses. When you click the top of a DIFFERENT column, the icon disappears, and appears in the newly clicked column.

Now...what if, i n addition to that little arrow icon thingy, there were ANOTHER icon...say, an asterisk...next to the arrow? Now...when we click this asterisk, the sorting for the current column LOCKS, and the asterisk turns into a numeral 1. (The icon would also have a "depressed" look, just to remind the user that they are now using multiple-item sorting.) Next, you click a different column...and IT now has a direction arrow, and a 2 icon next to that! BUT...THIS "2" is not yet depressed (or "LOCKED"). Press the "2", and then you can sort a third column. Now...if three columns is the limit (and I can't think of a PHYSICAL reason why it should) the "3" icon on the title of this third sorted column will not lock down. Therefore, as long as you click on a different (unlocked) column, it will sort the items by the First + Second, + Newly clicked column, and the "3" icon will appear next to the direction icon instead of the column that was previously clicked.

Now, as long as the user doesn't ever "lock" a column to be sorted, Winamp's behavior is identical to the old behavior except with the small addition of the second icon appearing at the top of that column. I know as a programmer myself, sorting on multiple fields is as simple as concatenating two or more strings prior to the Compare process; and with most database engines, doing that can be as simple as requesting the three fields to be returned as a single string.

Of course, this is Winamp we're talking about; and from the sound of what DrO was telling us, accessing and sorting multiple fields of Winamp's data may not be nearly so straightforward. In fact...DrO might have to redesign the Media Library entirely, just to be able to IMPLEMENT some form of Database-like behavior...am I right?

In any case...this won't happen in the next release, and apparently may not be possible for many revisions afterwards. But...it's one possible idea. Thanks for your efforts towards even a BASIC working version of Winamp, DrO! I will definitely be looking forward to whatever may be possible in the future.

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Old 12th September 2014, 12:02   #94
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hi Sass,

you basically described, in your own words, my first suggestion I posted earlier.

just fyi, the ML is already a DB, so the complexity * should be * in the UI and tying that to ini files so what the user does is remembered. I think all the foundation is basically in place, and if DrO or other devs, should there ever be any others, were so inclined I don't think implementing this would be too challenging for them, except possibly doing it "elegantly" as DrO prizes efficiency and minimalism, at least imo.

personally I like the idea of asterix and numerals, (or hyphens and numerals as I described it), but I posted a revised suggestion in this thread:

http://forums.winamp.com/showthread.php?t=379261

...mainly b/c I think DrO hated the first idea. of course, he might not like that one any better, but I'm not sure how he envisions this working and I think he'd say he doesn't really envision it at all, which is understandable if albeit lamentable.

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Old 12th September 2014, 16:33   #95
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anyone looked at explorer of late... as that is doing additional filter handling where the sort arrow is made into a button / menu pop-out (and which appears when moving the mouse over columns which aren't the selected one) whilst it still allows for clicking on the rest of the header to work as-is for sorting.

that is what i'd deem to be an intuitive UI implementation without adding additional ui clutter which is one of my main dis-likes of the current suggestions (especially when it's not shown for other columns unless you mouse over it so it's only there when needed).
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Old 13th September 2014, 08:08   #96
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that's pretty sweet for the UI, the down only arrow on the righthand side.

but what would you do to let the user set the hierarchy? pick digits? and, once set, would you leave a visual indication behind so the user could see the digits on the righthand side? or allow that by pref?

I never thought to suggest explorer methodology b/c I didn't think that would fit into how ML currently works, but if it does that's great and I think its a very elegant solution.

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Old 13th September 2014, 11:12   #97
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I only mentioned it as a way of allowing additional ui features without adding asterisks or whatever it was. I was not referring to mimicking what explorer actually does as its filtering is not what is asked for.
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Old 13th September 2014, 11:20   #98
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right, I totally understood that. I think its a great solution. u get the down arrow on the right hand side when u hover, and can manipulate a pop menu of commands, which for this suggestion, would probably involve digits so you could rank the column, (right?).

I was just asking that once u did that, what visual indication would u leave behind showing something was done?

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Old 13th September 2014, 22:36   #99
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you'd do nothing as the part would remain as showing up or down as applicable or hidden if not the column chosen to initially sort by. and visual adjustments when mousing over a column would make the sorting arrow become more obvious as a clickable button.

using something like the explorer mini dialog would then show available columns to sort by and on that the default behaviour would be shown and allowing for that to be changed as applicable.

this would allow for specific rules per column (as sort of happens anyway) with the customisability aspect (assuming all of that fits with what is expected as the sorting functionality).
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Old 22nd September 2014, 07:58   #100
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What about a digit appearing INSIDE the arrow itself, in order to indicate both that multiple-column sorting was on, as well as to indicate the priority of the columns? This could even be skinned (for foreign languages, fancy arrows/icon sets, etc.) and controlled by right-clicking on the top bar column rather than left-clicking. And no Asterisk or other extra icon required...no apparent visual difference from the original behavior--until you use it.

THAT....would be Elegant.

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Old 22nd September 2014, 14:06   #101
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there's no need for an additional ui aspect like that and it just complicates a) the ui and b) the implementation of things.

a clickable up/down sort arrow (or the equivalent for where it would be shown) is the best way to keep things clean and better mirror OS integration (which is something we all to poorly do).
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Old 25th September 2014, 08:26   #102
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Fair enough.

In any case...thanks for your continued attention, DrO. I'll consider this the final word on the matter.

Cheers!

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Old 10th February 2015, 11:23   #103
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What a thread.
These are the sad results of my attempts at finding solutions for the issue.

I offer 30 USD through bank or pay-pal transfer to the person who develops a sort-order fix that would be released in an official update to WinAmp.
If you are interested in funding the same service, feel free to post your additional offer below. If anyone knows an online-service that could be used to ensure these promised transactions to the developer of the fix, please feel free to post it below, and contact me at laetitian@gmx.at so I can link to a collective request-fund in this post.
If no such service is found, I would pay up-front, in exchange for some proof by the developer that the feature works, and an explanation of how they intend to ensure its release.

The request:
  • The only feature I would insist on is that multiple columns could be assigned a sort order to.
  • However, the best solution would probably also add the numbered icons which have been mentioned by the SASS Man, right above.
  • Another potentially important feature to ensure that the update would even be accepted for WinAmp might be adding the "Multiple Sort Order Values On/Off"-button, which MrSinatra has suggested. It would prevent the Sort order from annoying those who do not need it.
    This could, instead of an on/off-option, also be solved, even more conveniently, by an option to determine the desired maximum amount of sort-order columns. Thus, anyone who only wants to sort by one selected column, could just choose "1". "1" would obviously remain default.

Obviously, I have no idea how Radionomy deals with updates and whether the developer of the fix would have to be a member of the WinAmp-development-team in order to be able to realise my request. I do not really care either. The person who finishes the project gets my money.
I understand this thread has undergone frequent calming. I understand the necessity of keeping forum-posts in order when they are not leading anywhere. I still want this feature fixed, though, so I hope no-one minds my offer here.
If anything about my suggestion would make it impossible to be realised as an official update, feel free to point that out.
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Old 11th February 2015, 23:50   #104
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A possibility to sort added files by added date in managed ML lists and i offer 30 USD too . Winamp is far away the best software to play and manage music files... except that essential missing tool.
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Old 12th February 2015, 16:20   #105
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Quote:
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A possibility to sort added files by added date in managed ML lists ...
You can add a "Date Added" column to any of the default ML smartviews (listed under the Local Library heading on the left) that let you customize the columns shown in the bottom plane of the views. Just right click on any 1 of the column headings and select "Customize columns...", if shown. You can use the window that pops up to add to (from the hidden columns list), and/or hide 1 or more of, the columns currently shown. You can also change the left to right display order of the columns by changing the top to bottom order of the visible columns list in the pop-up.

You can also make your own customized smartview based on 'Date Added' and any other available filtering criteria you want to use. Smartviews provide very powerful ways to organize and present your files that are associated with the appropriate metadata tags (in the files themselves or added to the files' ML records).

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Old 12th February 2015, 21:11   #106
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I was speaking about the manageable Playlist in the ML, not the local Libray Smartwiews. On the List views, there are only two choices of sort : title and time

But thank you for your answer !
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Old 12th February 2015, 21:21   #107
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Whereas I can sort these files of my lists like I want when I import them with Traktor !

In Winamp, If I sort the content of these lists by title name, I definitely lose their order by the dates I 've added them to. Pretty insecure.
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Old 12th February 2015, 21:46   #108
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you're comparing apples with pears.

Winamp treats a playlist in the manner that it is - as just a list of items with generally no additional context of where it came from or when it was added or moved or anything else like that.

if Traktor is providing extra things then maybe it's turning the playlist into an equivalent of library items (as an analogy to other parts of Winamp's handling of things) for how it needs to handle things. that is the only obvious reason to explain what you're seeing (when i've not used said software).


otherwise everything you're wanting can only really be done natively (and which in both cases are new features, not bug fixes as the implementation of things is correct for how they were coded) or by someone replacing most of the playlist functionality with their own implementation (as the second request would require to achieve it, whilst somehow trying to replicate everything that is expected by other aspects of Winamp) which is far more work to do than is reasonable to expect from your bounty.
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Old 13th February 2015, 18:37   #109
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Quote:
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Whereas I can sort these files of my lists like I want when I import them with Traktor !

In Winamp, If I sort the content of these lists by title name, I definitely lose their order by the dates I 've added them to. Pretty insecure.
I'm too old to understand what you mean by "Pretty insecure" in this context.

But, DrO appears to be correct by saying "If Traktor is providing extra things then maybe it's turning the playlist into an equivalent of library items ...". The Traktor DJ app appears to be very similar to the "VirtualDJ" app (which I use on occasion).

The important thing is that you can start playback from the ML views and maintain a chronological listing in the Playlist Editor panel of what is played (which can be saved for replay later). Download and install the following plug-in (http://winampplugins.co.uk/mlenqplay.html). Then you can right click on an item (or selection of items) in a ML view and select "Enqueue and play selection". This will add the item(s) to the bottom of the current listing in the Playlist Editor panel (or clear the existing listing first so that you can start clean) and start it or them playing. So you can sort a ML view by 'Date Added', select what you want for playback, and then have it start playing with 1 mouse click.

Even without this plug-in, you can right click on an item (or selection of items) in a ML view and select "Enqueue selection". This will add the item(s) to the bottom of the current listing in the Playlist Editor panel and then you can start playback by double clicking on the item in the Playlist Editor panel that you want playback to start with. You can also use this method to add items to a playlist that is already playing.

Using Winamp to DJ is not as convenient as using software designed for that purpose, but if you're willing to adapt your methods it can usually get the job done.

Winamp Pro 5.666.3516 fully-patched - Komodo X Touchscreen by Victhor skin
Windows 10 Home 64-bit desktop - Logitech Z906 5.1 speaker system
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Old 3rd May 2015, 00:40   #110
sathishcit
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Play using multiple sort

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtbse View Post
Probably not exactly what you're after, but I've done something very similar to this with the Bento skin.

Just create a smart view with a 3-pane filter. Set the panes to Album Artist, Year, and Album Art, then click in the album artist pane to select an artist, see the years, and then the albums/album art.
I have created a smart view as suggested above. But how do I play songs in the same sequence without clicking the next Album Artist each time?
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Old 3rd May 2015, 14:33   #111
ryerman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sathishcit View Post
I have created a smart view as suggested above. But how do I play songs in the same sequence without clicking the next Album Artist each time?
In the same sequence as what?
Be clear. Be specific. Be detailed.

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Old 24th June 2015, 13:44   #112
Laetitian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryerman
Quote:
Originally Posted by sathishcit
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtbse
Probably not exactly what you're after, but I've done something very similar to this with the Bento skin.

Just create a smart view with a 3-pane filter. Set the panes to Album Artist, Year, and Album Art, then click in the album artist pane to select an artist, see the years, and then the albums/album art.
I have created a smart view as suggested above. But how do I play songs in the same sequence without clicking the next Album Artist each time? In the same sequence as what?
Be clear. Be specific. Be detailed.
He means that the SmartView is completely useless, if playing a song from the Artist/Year/Album-plane does not create playlists larger than a single album.

Bumping this for my offer.
My money is waiting for your coding.
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Old 24th June 2015, 13:58   #113
DrO
 
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your offer won't work as it's far too little an amount for the time involved and it's only something that can either be done on the library plug-in directly (trying to make a plug-in to hack in the functionality will not work) or by creating a whole replacement library plug-in which is intentionally built to work in such a manner than trying to shoe-horn it back into what is effectively the same library code as was provided with Winamp 2.9x.

and seeing as there's meant to be loads of able and competent developers who wanted to save Winamp (i see their site has now expired), I don't know why there's not been an effort to just create a replacement library plug-in beforehand (or any of the things that people don't like or find are broken). but oh wait, they were all predominantly web developers so that doesn't help with what's needed and attempts have been made a few times over the last 12yrs to make a replacement library and they're all languishing now as dead projects (and didn't do what was being asked for either).

so personally, I don't think you're going to see any interest or realisation of this feature either natively or from someone trying to hack it in / create a complete replacement.
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