Old 7th April 2002, 01:02   #1
Rovastar
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For Krash

Here is a little present for Krash in the form of a preset.

I think you will find it solves your second most desired feature in MilkDrop.

It is nothing special to look at folks but just hit that monitor key.
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Old 7th April 2002, 04:07   #2
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An fps monitor that we can use in presets! hallelujah!

/me goes to fix the digital flame presets

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Old 7th April 2002, 04:51   #3
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Better solution:

frame_per_sec = 0.01*(frame_per_sec*99 + 1/(time - last_time));
last_time = time;

this way, frame_per_sec is the frame rate for the last 100 frames. Your method is the average frame rate since the preset started - if the preset is running for a long time, changes in fps aren't picked up. PLus, this way doesn't use the progress variable ;p

Even better solultion: An internal fps variable that we can access

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Old 7th April 2002, 13:07   #4
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:)

Very nice Krash - that is a much better why of doing it. It was late when I did the first one but it got the ball rolling.

I have a better solution.

frame_per_sec = 0.1*(frame_per_sec*9 + 1/(time - last_time));
last_time = time;

As yours takes about 10 seconds (I think far too long ) to get the correct frames per second. This speeds the rate of the exponential-ism up (takes about a second) and it is nearly as accurate. It still evens itself out.

There is probably a formula for working out exactly but this is good enough.

Try it and see.

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Old 7th April 2002, 13:32   #5
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=]
indeed. It all depends on how many frames you want to average. you could have frame_per_sec = 0.02325*(frame_per_sec*42 + 1/(time - last_time)); If you really wanted to. Not that there's much point

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Old 7th April 2002, 13:46   #6
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In my opinion, it is better to use frame in beat detection than time. More data points, finer granularity, etc. Your results may vary.
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Old 7th April 2002, 14:41   #7
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Krash

Got it the forumla it is (you must have this)

1/(my_ratio) * (frame_per_sec*(my_ratio-1) +1/(time-last_time))

Krash it is not the average of the number of frames it is the 'average of the average of the last x frames' there is a difference.

To work it out and you will have loads of old redundant data in there. If I were you I would stick to something like 10. 2 isn't that bad it is very quick to get within 1 or 2 fps.

Anyway I still feel that anything above my_ratio=10 takes too long to work out that the average fps is. 100 takes ages. You must run this line about 300 times to get an accurate result.

I guessed it correct values

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Old 7th April 2002, 19:20   #8
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If my name wasnt idiot I would feel stupid... =)
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Old 7th April 2002, 19:42   #9
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Don't worry idiot you don't need to know all of this to make a good preset.

Me and Krash are just boffins.

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Old 7th April 2002, 21:15   #10
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*phew*
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Old 8th April 2002, 03:10   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rovastar
Krash

Got it the forumla it is (you must have this)

1/(my_ratio) * (frame_per_sec*(my_ratio-1) +1/(time-last_time))

Krash it is not the average of the number of frames it is the 'average of the average of the last x frames' there is a difference.

To work it out and you will have loads of old redundant data in there. If I were you I would stick to something like 10. 2 isn't that bad it is very quick to get within 1 or 2 fps.

Anyway I still feel that anything above my_ratio=10 takes too long to work out that the average fps is. 100 takes ages. You must run this line about 300 times to get an accurate result.

I guessed it correct values
Yeah, as you said, it's not the true average. It's a pretty good approximation though. Doing it accurately would be possible, but yes, there would need to be plenty of frames worth of redundant data.

100 works fine on my machine, actually - Considering that without text on, (the fix slow text doesn't seem to work as well as it once did), I get ~85fps, it takes less than a second to get a value that's good enough for the flame effect to appear.

Oh, and idiot: It's not that complicated, really. Follow it through mathematically (that's all milkdrop really is, after all), and you should see what were on about. Don't let the numbers scare you.

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Old 8th April 2002, 03:32   #12
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This may not be the best thread to post it in, but I didn't feel like starting a new thread for a simple mod of an old preset.

- Krash
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File Type: zip krash - digital flame (within the inferno).zip (1.2 KB, 134 views)

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Old 8th April 2002, 10:09   #13
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Thats what im scared of Krash.. the math...
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Old 8th April 2002, 10:59   #14
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Krash,

Run the presets when you uP the texture size. And Mesh. And Res. Set all these to max and see if it runs reasonable.

It take bloody ages to reaches to got to a reasonable value. And whilst doing that it is really ugly.

Remember mate. Write the presets for everyone.

BTW what setting do you run MD at? 85fps! IF it is that quick why not up the texture size. I though you where going to regulate the preset so it runs (roughly) at a set fps.

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Old 8th April 2002, 13:29   #15
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Yeah, sorry Krash, but these do look kinda strange compared to the originals. Digital flame used to run nicely at 35fps but now it looks really choppy and can barely hit 25fps.

Damn you all for having decent video cards 85fps... sigh
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Old 8th April 2002, 14:16   #16
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1024x1024 texture size, max mesh, running in a window which is 1024* about 650 pixels, 32bit.
No point in putting the texture size to 2048 - it'll only get downsampled anyway.

The regulation is there to modulate the values of the dx and dy values according to the actual fps compared to the "desired" fps.

You dropped 10fps Illusion? That's no good... Go back to the old ones then... =/

And things don't run at 85fps when I have any text on screen (the fps meter for instance). The "fix slow text" option is supposed to fix the problem, but it doesn't seem to work for me any more. For instance - in rainpainting 2, with no text on the screen, everything is running silky smooth, and looks great. put on the fps meter, and watch it go:
85fps...75fps...65fps...55fps...and levels out around there. at 55fps, rainpainting 2 doesn't look anywhere near as good.

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Old 8th April 2002, 15:16   #17
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I had never seen rainpainting 2 like that.

I run it at about 34fps. Fullscreen - 1028x768x32 Mesh Max Texture 1024x1024

Digital Flame at 33
Digital Flame (Remix) at 32

- on my GF2 MX 400 (64MB). I thought you had the same. What card to you have?

That is about the average for all the presets.

I turned the mesh and texture down and I see what effect you were trying to get.

I always try and make the presets run about 25-35fps. I though everyone did. I run with as much detail as possible.

I always write my presets to run with these 'average' benchmark in mind.

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Old 9th April 2002, 03:37   #18
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Oh me and my lil TNT2 m64 pci =(

[edit]\/\/00+ [\/]Y 100+[]=[] []D0$+[/edit]
[edit2]\/\/00+ $3[\]][0R /\/\3/\/\l33r[/edit2]
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Old 9th April 2002, 06:00   #19
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Athlon 1100MHz, 512Mb Ram, 64Mb GF2 Pro.

Rainpainting at 30fps? ye gods, that must look horrible.

The rainpainting presets were designed to be run at ridiculously high frame rates - the faster the better. Rainpainting 2 for example:
There are 3 ripples at any one time, and these (and their respective blending effects) are drawn in alternating frames. At 30fps, each ripple is therefore only getting 10fps - It's very clear that the waveforms are alternating. It's clear even at 50fps (looks like you're staring at an interlaced screen or something - hurts the eyes). At 85fps, each ripple is getting 28fps. It looks like the ripples exist concurrently - It's a really nice effect, and I can sit and stare at it for hours.

It's a shame you guys can't see it the way I do...

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Old 9th April 2002, 09:19   #20
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Shh... Im gonna sneak to Krash's house and steal his computer and put my plastic box where his was. Muahahahahaahah... Oh My I think I have said to much.
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Old 9th April 2002, 11:55   #21
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Even better, try and swipe a GeForce 4 Ti4200 MilkDrop would look *so* awesome on one of those....

BTW, idiot, please explain your "l33t" language there... I thought I was OK at understanding it, but I can't work these ones out.. damn you computer geeks
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Old 9th April 2002, 12:36   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by idiot24-7
Shh... Im gonna sneak to Krash's house and steal his computer and put my plastic box where his was. Muahahahahaahah... Oh My I think I have said to much.
mind waiting until after christmas? I'm upgrading my rig at the end of this year, I won't need the stuff I've got now. I could use your plastic box as a DHCP router or something

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Old 9th April 2002, 12:37   #23
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oops. double post

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Old 9th April 2002, 13:38   #24
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Krash,

That means that everything else will run too quick. I COULD make mind run at that apeed if I reduced the texture but all the other preset IMHO run way too fast.

I always thought that the 'general' optimium speed was 25-40 or something like that. (Going for Ryan's Geiss guidelines of 28-30fps)

Any quicker is just too quick. Up your texture size.

Loads of mine like ambient wallpaper look totally wrong at that speed.

I though you said when 1.0 came out that it runs too quick and you would be limiting the fps.

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Old 9th April 2002, 13:39   #25
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Mind sending your Athlon to me? I'm not that far away really.. you could just throw it in your kangaroo's pouch, next to the sub, and tell Skippy to go to Adelaide
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Old 9th April 2002, 13:44   #26
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You must have posted a few seconds before me there Rova. That was actually a reply to Krash....

BTW, I think you need most presets to run a little bit above 30fps, because often in the transitions (or in more complex presets) they tend to lose a few FPS.. going from 35 - 30 is OK, but sometimes when it goes from around 30 down to 22 you do notice it. I think anything faster than 40 or 45 isn't that useful really... from what I've seen on others machines it's better at extra-high res & mesh size @ 30fps than low-res @ 60 - 70 fps.
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Old 9th April 2002, 14:06   #27
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I don't really think there's much point in upping the texture size - I'm only running in 1024x768 - a 2048x2048 texture size will therefore be downsampled to less than 25% of it's actual size, and I'll be losing all that extra data that is getting computed.

And not *all* presets run that fast. It depends how complicated the effect is. Aenema, for instance, has some pretty complicated per-pixel stuff going on, and runs at about 45fps. Ambient wallpaper actually looks just fine at 80fps. It's fast, that's all. The effect is still there, and it still looks good.

The bad part of the high frame rate is that some presets really don't look as intended - digital flame is the only one I've noticed that was really bad though - it didn't look like proper flames anymore - it was just speedy vertical wavy lines. Not very nice to watch.

And for a while, I *was* running with the fps limited to 45. But something weird happened, and Milkdrop became unstable. Crashed all over the place. So when I was back to watching presets zoom around at 80fps (which I'm quite used to, by now), I asked myself what all these extra fps could be used for - the rainpainting presets were my answer. These blending effects in these presets are reproducible so that thhey all happen in a single frame - but that would be very slow - like have three sets of dynamic swirls going all at once. So instead, I simplify the per-pixel code, and change its input so they alternate frames. I can keep track of multiple variables in the per-frame section, where it's cheap, and do the expensive calculations only once per pixel per frame, instead of four times per pixel per frame. Because of the high framerate, the result is an illusion that all parts of the image are moving simultaneously.

I felt like illustrating my massive drop in fps with some screenshots. These are of rainpainting 2, and are full 1024x768 jpegs, so they're about 130k each.

First image - taken the instant after I turned on the fps meter.
http://krash.idx.com.au/secret/fps1.jpg
Second image - about 20 seconds later
http://krash.idx.com.au/secret/fps2.jpg

And for those people who CAN see rainpainting 2 the way it was intended, I've tweaked it to remove the two parts that I wasn't happy with - that the ripples outran the waveform, and that when the ripples were very far out, they didn't ripple - they just made streaks.

And for those who can't see it as intended
http://krash.idx.com.au/secret/quickdry.jpg

- Krash
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Old 9th April 2002, 15:48   #28
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Krash: I never thought that Rainpainting looks so cool. On my machine it is.. boring..
Ok.. my framerate is way below 80fps.. but take a look for yourself.
Here is a downsampled jpg.. 640x480

http://www.planet-starfire.de/md/rain2.jpg

Maybe its time to upgrade my system...
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Old 9th April 2002, 19:23   #29
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Illusion,
Quote:
[edit]\/\/00+ [\/]Y 100+[]=[] []D0$+[/edit]
[edit2]\/\/00+ $3[\]][0R /\/\3/\/\l33r[/edit2]
Edit 1 = Woot My 100th Post

Edit 2 = Woot Senior Member,
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Old 10th April 2002, 07:10   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jessail
Krash: I never thought that Rainpainting looks so cool. On my machine it is.. boring..
Ok.. my framerate is way below 80fps.. but take a look for yourself.
Here is a downsampled jpg.. 640x480

http://www.planet-starfire.de/md/rain2.jpg

Maybe its time to upgrade my system...
Looks like you're running in 16-bit. Which is pretty unfortunate. I've tried some things to get it to at least look watchable on 16bit, but it either goes bright white, or bright pink. very ugly.

You could always invest in a tnt2 card - you can get them in pci if you don't have an agp port, and they're dirt cheap now. Could at least give you 32 bit colour until you can afford a proper upgrade.

It's amazing how different some of the presets are. I know that most of mine don't look as nice.

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Old 10th April 2002, 09:43   #31
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AGP =( I got a ATI readeon 7200 for X-Mas and had to take it back because of the damn AGP ports =( Witch I had none of.. Had to get a TNT2 but Nvidia is good so.. BTW I got it for like $8.99 usd.
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Old 10th April 2002, 10:18   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by Krash


Looks like you're running in 16-bit. Which is pretty unfortunate. I've tried some things to get it to at least look watchable on 16bit, but it either goes bright white, or bright pink. very ugly.
Can´t be. I am using a Kyro II (AGP, 32MB), which uses internally 32bit rendering. So it does not make sense to switch to 16bit (no or little speed increase). Actually I can´t believe it. Every other preset I know looks perfectly.
I think I judged you a bit wrong. I am sure that most of your presets are really cool, but I am not able to watch them the way they should be watched.

Quote:

You could always invest in a tnt2 card - you can get them in pci if you don't have an agp port, and they're dirt cheap now. Could at least give you 32 bit colour until you can afford a proper upgrade.
The only Nvidia card which will ever invade my system is a GF4 Ti (or better ), which I can´t afford. So.. I have to stay with my Kyro. I love this card, and this is the first time I ever have problems with.
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Old 10th April 2002, 11:32   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by idiot24-7
Illusion,

[edit]\/\/00+ [\/]Y 100+[]=[] []D0$+[/edit]
[edit2]\/\/00+ $3[\]][0R /\/\3/\/\l33r[/edit2]

Edit 1 = Woot My 100th Post

Edit 2 = Woot Senior Member,
I can proudly say that I did not understand 1 'word' of that.

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Old 11th April 2002, 00:37   #34
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Thats ok Rova neither do I =)
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Old 11th April 2002, 01:58   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jessail


Can´t be. I am using a Kyro II (AGP, 32MB), which uses internally 32bit rendering. So it does not make sense to switch to 16bit (no or little speed increase). Actually I can´t believe it. Every other preset I know looks perfectly.
I think I judged you a bit wrong. I am sure that most of your presets are really cool, but I am not able to watch them the way they should be watched.
Well, it's true - if I switch to 16 bit colour, rainpainting 2 looks exactly like the screenshot you have there. Make absolutely sure that you're running in 32 bit.

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