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Old 30th July 2009, 01:10   #1
rockouthippie
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Will Obama's health care plan mirror the 1994 Clinton failure?

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- In 1994, universal health care was a key policy plan for then-President Bill Clinton. It eventually failed.
In 1993, President Bill Clinton and First Lady Hillary Clinton listen to a man's story about health care problems.

In 1993, President Bill Clinton and First Lady Hillary Clinton listen to a man's story about health care problems.

Now, 15 years later, another Democratic president is taking on the challenge, but facing an uphill battle from not only from Republicans, but from members of his own party.

http://www****n.com/2009/POLITICS/07...are/index.html

Many press articles are trying to soften the blow of what is being called "compromise" in the Obama health care plan.

Let me look into my crystal ball.....hmmm... I see a plan so watered down that it is useless, except for the beneficiaries of government spending....

Just as Hillary retreated like a kicked dog with her tail between her legs, we begin to see Obama cringing, tail down and whimpering a little. Trying to negotiate his way out of his ass kicking.

The Democrats will not risk a repeat of 1994. The Republicans have no reason to wish Obama success.

While the liberal pundits are trying to paint this as a "compromise" of Obama campaign promises, it's not a compromise. It's a FAIL. If we are lucky the special interest pork that comes out of the Congress won't make matters worse.
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Old 3rd August 2009, 17:23   #2
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Take the blue pill.
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Old 4th August 2009, 09:58   #3
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I usually stay away from anything political, but I have had a few drinks and I feel like ranting. Let me first off state that I consider myself a Democrat. While I tend to dislike the whole two party system and what the blinders that party labels seem to cause for some, that is a completely another rant. That being said, I find myself quite against universal health care. Now I think our current system has flaws and needs work, maybe even by legislation, I don't think this is the right direction.

Personally, I love my health coverage. I also have a job and health care was one of the benefits I look for besides salary when looking for a job. Now I know "get a job" isn't the cure for everyone. But it is a good start. In the end I favor some system that helps the under-insured and the lower income people get care for serious medical conditions.

Now, it gets to the point that while I do drink socially I don't smoke, I attempt to manage my diet (I am within the right weight range for my height) and I exercise several times a week. I don't feel I should be paying more in either premiums or taxes to take care of the smokers, the drunks, the obese and the hypochondriacs. Not to say that the car insurance model is idea, but if you have never been in an accident, you pay less. A good driver, you pay less. Do think to prevent getting in accidents, you pay less. But the idea that the people who make more then average hospital visits or have an unhealthy life style have to may more, it is discrimination and all that crap.

I'll admit, I end up at the hospital or Urgent Care a few times a year or so, because I am a klutz. But when I am there for stitches, an x-ray or a tetanus booster, I see the same people. The ones who go to the ER because their kid has the sniffles, or because their 300lb chest hurts after climbing a flight of stairs.


So, sorta on a tangent, in a way. The big complaint that health care costs are spiraling out of control. It just seems that the problem isn't that there isn't enough insurance going around, it is that there is too much. I can get a cold and go to the hospital, urgent care or see my primary care physician and I pay the same amount, or nearly the same. He can look at me and tell me I am find and sleep in a few days and suck it up or he can run some tests and prescribe some meds. I still pay the same for the office visit, but now the in insurance company plays a lot more. But I don't see that, so I don't care. So I don't care if they cahrged my insurance $20 or $200. I have no incentive to find the cheaper option, or even contemplate if I really need to see the doctor.

[Pours another drink]

Let's go back to the car insurance analogy. I have a $250 deductible (or $100 or $500). I get in a small fender bender, I shop round, if I can get it fixes for under the deductible I don't even tell the insurance company. If it is an scar I can live with, I just don't deal with it. I start to go out of my way to drive right, safely, healthy. I try to avoid the accidents in the first place. But if I treat my car poorly and I find myself in the body shop every week, my rates go up, because I don't take care of my car.

What I would like to see if I get sick and need some crazy flu medicine, I am on my own. Maybe sprain my ankle, cover the doctor visit and the muscle relaxant prescription on my own. If I was I know for sure I would not be running to the ER for every single little booboo. That and I know I would shop around for my care find a nice cost vs quality compromise (which can vary per person), and costs of the *******y. And when health care providers actually have to compete instead of blindly billing the insurance company, they will be forced to compete and prices will go down.

Now if I am walking down the street and I get plowed over by a car and am laid up in ICU for a week or have an heart attack, I am way over my deductible and I am totaled, then the insurance does step in.

I guess what I am saying, is get a fucking job. That and if you have to pay for the basic issues you4rself there will be less of them and providers will be forced to compete. When you aren't the one paying the bills for the services you receive, of course the prices will go up. (Seriously, I sound really Republican tonight [*shivers*], but I just don't want to be forced to pay for the unhealthy hypochondriacs of America).

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Old 4th August 2009, 14:33   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sawg
Personally, I love my health coverage. I also have a job and health care was one of the benefits I look for besides salary when looking for a job. Now I know "get a job" isn't the cure for everyone.
Most of the uninsured had a job and insurance when they got sick. How close are you really? Did you buy disability insurance? If you did.... Can you keep your employer insurance should you become temporarily disabled? Really... how far are you from bottom?

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In the end I favor some system that helps the under-insured and the lower income people get care for serious medical conditions.
It's not total down n' outers that don't have insurance. They have public assistance and medicaid. It's working people.

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Now, it gets to the point that while I do drink socially I don't smoke, I attempt to manage my diet (I am within the right weight range for my height) and I exercise several times a week.
Well goody for you. Could someone who treats themselves even better discriminate against you? Maybe you have some heredity problems? Bottom line. If you get seriously ill... smoker... fat or not... you're screwed.

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I'll admit, I end up at the hospital or Urgent Care a few times a year or so, because I am a klutz.
You're a KLUTZ! Sounds high risk to me! I smoke, but I've been in an emergency room twice and been hospitalized for 2 days. Oh. And that bullshit you heard about smoking. Smokers are cheap. They die. The Government saves a grip of money when smokers die early.

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[Pours another drink]
You drink too!

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I guess what I am saying, is get a fucking job.
It's not people that don't have a job that aren't insured. If you're living on food stamps, popping out puppies for welfare and on the public dole, they'res a government program for you. If you manage to get to 65... medicare takes over and you get to medical payday where they'll spend a hundred thousand dollars to keep you alive another year. Even if you were so miserable you really wanted to die.

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I just don't want to be forced to pay for the unhealthy hypochondriacs of America).
You'd rather pay lobbyists, insurance companies, politicians, hedge fund managers, *******eutical companies and a plethora of other useless money eaters?

Here's the problem. The medical and insurance industries are controlled by powerful cartels who own the best government money can buy.

Read some. Neither the Democrats or the Republicans have the interest of us normal working people at heart. They are owned by this travesty. It isn't the only travesty.

Now we are considering government revenues to support a new war that isn't probably going to help security. New revenues for a health care program that won't cover everyone..... just cost more... New revenues to fight global warming that probably is not stoppable. New revenues for drug treatment programs that don't work... prisons that make criminals worse.... "clean cars" that pollute as much as a Hummer... and cost more... and a "bailout" that returned the rich to the status quo while we paid for it....

You found our new "Jews" for our society with your comments. Broke people. Petty Criminals! Fat People! Bigots! Chauvinists! Drunks! Drug addicts! Terrorists! Christians! Smokers! People that have unprotected sex... unless they're gay! None of these "deviants" cost as much money as the people who are going to "save" us from them!

You thought things would be so much better with Barry than George, but aren't you rapidly noticing they are interchangeable butt plugs?

Last edited by rockouthippie; 4th August 2009 at 15:28.
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Old 11th August 2009, 03:28   #5
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In case any of you chose to take the time to read this piece of cronyism and incest.....
Bill

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Read H R 3200, the Health Care Bill
• Pg 22: Mandates audits of all employers that self-insure!
• Pg 29: Admission: your health care will be rationed!
• Pg 30: A government committee will decide what treatments & benefits you get (and, unlike an insurer, there will be no appeals process)

• Pg 42: The "Health Choices Commissioner" will decide health benefits for you. You will have no choice. None.
• Pg 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free healthcare services.
Pg 58: Every person will be issued a National ID Healthcard.
• Pg 59: The federal government will have direct, real-time access to all individual bank accounts for electronic funds transfer.

• Pg 65: Taxpayers will subsidize all union retiree and community organizer health plans (read: SEIU, UAW and ACORN)
• Pg 72: All private healthcare plans must conform to government rules to participate in a Healthcare Exchange.
• Pg 84: All private healthcare plans must participate in the Healthcare Exchange (i.e., total government control of private plans)

• Pg 91: Government mandates linguistic infrastructure for services; translation: illegal aliens
• Pg 95: The Government will pay ACORN and Americorps to sign up individuals for Government-run Health Care plan.
• Pg 102: Those eligible for Medicaid will be automatically enrolled: you have no choice in the matter.
• Pg 124: No company can sue the government for price-fixing. No "judicial review" is permitted against the government monopoly. Put simply, private insurers will be crushed.

• Pg 127: The AMA sold doctors out: the government will set wages.
• Pg 145: An employer MUST auto-enroll employees into the government-run public plan. No alternatives.
• Pg 126: Employers MUST pay healthcare bills for part-time employees AND their families.
• Pg 149: Any employer with a payroll of $400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays an 8% tax on payroll

• Pg 150: Any employer with a payroll of $250K-400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays a 2 to 6% tax on payroll
• Pg 167: Any individual who doesn't' have acceptable healthcare (according to the government) will be taxed 2.5% of income.
• Pg 170: Any NON-RESIDENT alien is exempt from individual taxes (Americans will pay for them).
• Pg 195: Officers and employees of Government Healthcare Bureaucracy will have access to ALL American financial and personal records.

Pg 203: "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax." Yes, it really says that.
• Pg 239: Bill will reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors and the poor most affected."
• Pg 241: Doctors: no matter what specialty you have, you'll all be paid the same (thanks, AMA!)
• Pg 253: Government sets value of doctors' time, their professional judgment, etc.
• Pg 265: Government mandates and controls productivity for private healthcare industries.

• Pg 268: Government regulates rental and purchase of power-driven wheelchairs.
• Pg 272: Cancer patients: welcome to the wonderful world of rationing!
• Pg 280: Hospitals will be penalized for what the government deems preventable re-admissions.
• Pg 298: Doctors: if you treat a patient during an initial admission that results in a readmission, you will be penalized by the government.
• Pg 317: Doctors: you are now prohibited for owning and investing in healthcare companies!

• Pg 318: Prohibition on hospital expansion. Hospitals cannot expand without government approval.
• Pg 321: Hospital expansion hinges on "community" input: in other words, yet another payoff for ACORN.
• Pg 335: Government mandates establishment of outcome-based measures: i.e., rationing.
• Pg 341: Government has authority to disqualify Medicare Advantage Plans, HMOs, etc.
• Pg 354: Government will restrict enrollment of SPECIAL NEEDS individuals

• Pg 379: More bureaucracy: Telehealth Advisory Committee (healthcare by phone).
• Pg 425: More bureaucracy: Advance Care Planning Consult: Senior Citizens, assisted suicide, euthanasia?
• Pg 425: Government will instruct and consult regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney, etc. Mandatory. Appears to lock in estate taxes ahead of time.
• Pg 425: Government provides approved list of end-of-life resources, guiding you in death.

• Pg 427: Government mandates program that orders end-of-life treatment; government dictates how your life ends.
• Pg 429: Advance Care Planning Consult will be used to dictate treatment as patient's health deteriorates. This can include an ORDER for end-of-life plans. An ORDER from the GOVERNMENT.
• Pg 430: Government will decide what level of treatments you may have at end-of-life.

• Pg 469: Community-based Home Medical Services: more payoffs for ACORN.
• Pg 472: Payments to Community-based organizations: more payoffs for ACORN.
• Pg 489: Government will cover marriage and family therapy. Government intervenes in your marriage.
• Pg 494: Government will cover mental health services: defining, creating and rationing those services. .

I am so important I feel the need to let it be known like a liberal discovering the internets for the first time. Uh hur hur hur. I also wash myself with a rag on a stick.
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Old 11th August 2009, 03:53   #6
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heh
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Old 18th August 2009, 18:44   #8
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As a Scandinavian, the debate is immensely interesting to watch, especially how committed the majority of the American pubic is to capitalism.

Glad it's not a choice I face, personally I prefer my government over a private corporation any day, and it costs 54% less per capita not having to pay the shareholders, or whatever the extra $3300 per capita is spent on.
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Old 19th August 2009, 02:40   #9
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Oh, you pay. It is called administration. Government plans tend to be top heavy with administrators. They are not cheap by any means, and why? That's how a government pays of its cronies.
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Old 19th August 2009, 06:30   #10
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You can complain about your cronies too Wally, but Canadians spent US$3,678 per capita on health care and covered everyone. The US spends US$6,714 per capita, except that some about 20% of our "capita" are uninsured. While no one dies of absolute medical neglect in Canada, about 50,000 US citizens die every year of lack of basic medical care..... that's not brain surgery..... just little shit that could have been taken care of simply.

You seem to think that Canadian government cronies get too much for insuring everyone. You'll have to notice that our insurance companies, pharma companies etc. are getting about double that and more if you count the people that they kick to the curb.

The real problem is that there is no way that 10 trillion dollars by Obama helps. What has to happen is that we try to figure out how to get everyone medical care for what we are paying now.... or even better.... what you Canadians are paying.

This number being at 17% of our GDP and climbing is not sustainable. Our medical and insurance industries need Jenny Craig! It's too damn fat! It doesn't matter if it's Democrat fat or Republican fat! Fat is Fat!

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especially how committed the majority of the American pubic is to capitalism.
Yep. That's because those on the socialist dole usually end up stealing your bicycle.

Last edited by rockouthippie; 19th August 2009 at 07:36.
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Old 19th August 2009, 19:03   #11
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Originally posted by Wildrose-Wally
Oh, you pay. It is called administration. Government plans tend to be top heavy with administrators. They are not cheap by any means, and why? That's how a government pays of its cronies.
I'm fairly sure administration costs is factored in those numbers, a lot can be said about our taxes, but no one have ever blamed our government for not knowing where the tax dough is spent.

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Yep. That's because those on the socialist dole usually end up stealing your bicycle.
Ha, that may be much more true than you imagine, not going to look it up, but I'm fairly sure I remember that bike theft is the most common criminal offence here.
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Old 20th October 2009, 02:25   #12
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Read the new health bill here Cited as the "America’s Healthy Future Act of 2009"
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Old 25th October 2009, 06:11   #13
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It still will do nothing to address the root cause of the issues faced today, namely the escalating cost of employing the resource base.

I am so important I feel the need to let it be known like a liberal discovering the internets for the first time. Uh hur hur hur. I also wash myself with a rag on a stick.
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Old 25th October 2009, 09:27   #14
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Really, before we tackle health care reform, don't we need to tackle tort reform? If someone can sue a doctor because their poop looked funny after getting a flu shot, then their malpractice insurance goes up and health care costs go up....

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Old 26th October 2009, 01:06   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sawg
Really, before we tackle health care reform, don't we need to tackle tort reform? If someone can sue a doctor because their poop looked funny after getting a flu shot, then their malpractice insurance goes up and health care costs go up....
OMG.

I will die a happy man knowing at least someone out there gets it and has the same basic fundamental complaint about this whole "reform" as I do.
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Old 26th October 2009, 08:28   #16
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OMG.

I will die a happy man knowing at least someone out there gets it and has the same basic fundamental complaint about this whole "reform" as I do.
As my first post above I took a very political minded look at this idea of "Health care reform" but later I realized that is not addressing the problem. There is all this talk about health care reform, it is clearly to resolved that problem. What is the root problem here? Skyrocketing health care costs.

Sure, it is a small sample set and not definitive, but it set me down that road. I asked both my doctor and my dentist what their biggest costs was, and it was malpractice insurance. If you can get costs in check you can in theory get the basic services to out of pocket costs. (Have a flew, maybe an allergic reaction, need some stitches, if it is cheap enough you don't need insurance to take care of it). Not everyone may agree, but I would like to see health insurance be for catastrophes. The "run of the mill" medical issues to be able to be covered out of pocket.

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Old 27th October 2009, 02:05   #17
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Rush Limbaugh wouldn't have a job if his sheep could decypher facts on their own.
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Old 27th October 2009, 09:59   #18
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Originally posted by Sawg
Skyrocketing health care costs.....I asked both my doctor and my dentist what their biggest costs was, and it was malpractice insurance.
The Democrats have picked their heroes and villian in the health care "reform". The insurance companies are the single villian.

You won't find tort reform seriously considered. Too many liberal lawyers chasing ambulances. You'll find all the other forms of waste and greed in the medical system relatively untouched.

The pharma companies got such a sweet deal they are buying most of the pro "health care reform" advertising.

The insurance companies are the man with the twirly black mustache from an old silent film. They are to be the only ones facing "reform". Oh I forgot, they'll be picking on fat people and smokers to pay double.... even though they die quicker and save the system money.
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