Old 18th November 2001, 04:29   #1
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Do the evolution! part 1

way back in the day when the "2001" monolith landed on earth, and the monkeys were all just learning to use tools, the fate of mankind was still a bones throw away into space. those crazy little monkeys which eventually evolved into our present state as humanoids, had absolutely no knowledge of their inevitable change.

today mankind has managed to produce intelligent computers that can make a human heart beat and program nucleur weapons, we've put men on the moon, and sent satellites to the outskirts of our galaxy, in only a few hundred years we have witnessed change upon change, upon change... it seems only yesterday in the great span of the universe that we learned to navigate across the globe, mankind is moving at a break-neck pace...

my question to you is this: the monkeys that evolved into us had no idea that, that would ever happen, since we are capable of abstract thought... what will we evolve into? AND will humans find a way to dodge the inevitable decay of the universe?

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Old 18th November 2001, 04:38   #2
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Re: Do the evolution! part 1

Quote:
Originally posted by Boplicity
my question to you is this: the monkeys that evolved into us had no idea that, that would ever happen, since we are capable of abstract thought... what will we evolve into? AND will humans find a way to dodge the inevitable decay of the universe?
That is assuming that A) evolution, in the form we percieve of it, happens, and B) that the universe will indeed decay. The problem is that these two assumptions are based on modern science, which has been proven time and time again to be inexact. It's fully possible that entropy does not occur naturally, and that life is self-organizing (a nice application of chaos theory in both cases ).
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Old 18th November 2001, 04:40   #3
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for this discussion we will assume that (1) evolution does exist and (2) the universe (as we know it) will eventually die.

what then?

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Old 18th November 2001, 04:54   #4
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Well, in that case, we are screwed. When the universe collapses on itself, we will have no where to go, and existence itself will cease to be. Assuming, however, that there are multiple universe (thus, multiple regions of existence), we would still be screwed. There would be no way to transport our race to another universe, because the space between universes would be in a state of nonexistence and unbeing. In such a place, nothing can exist or be.
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Old 18th November 2001, 04:58   #5
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Evolution will stop once pregnant women routinely have their foetus' genetic makeup checked, and all foetuses will gene anomalies are terminated.

It will also stop when human reproduction occurs entirely in vitro in a tightly controlled lab environment.

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Old 18th November 2001, 05:03   #6
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Evolution can be behavioral and societal.
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Old 18th November 2001, 05:32   #7
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Quote:
originally posted by Boplicity
today mankind has managed to produce intelligent computers that can make a human heart beat and program nucleur weapons, we've put men on the moon, and sent satellites to the outskirts of our galaxy, in only a few hundred years we have witnessed change upon change, upon change... it seems only yesterday in the great span of the universe that we learned to navigate across the globe, mankind is moving at a break-neck pace...
All this and yet it takes a road construction crew 20 years
to build a 10 mile stretch of interstate.

One would have to ask, that if this universe and everything in it,
including the monkeys and then us, was created by a greater being,
then the day after it's all gone, would he want to try again?
Would a new universe be created the same way as the first,
starting with monkeys and evolving onward?
And was there another universe complete with evolution before us,
which ended in a big bang,
which in turn gave birth to our universe?
Questions...
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Old 18th November 2001, 06:33   #8
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questions, is right doc;

ok consider these factors,

since evolution is somewhat practical, and the changes that do occur are in accordance to the enviornmental conditions... would mankind not eventually evolve to indure the changes to the earth, and since we are higher thinkers (we could help evolution by adapting technologically).

also consider the fact that our space program has been in existence only a few short decades... yet we have managed to map out a large chunk of our little cosmic neighborhood (we have begun to ponder the idea of black holes, worm holes, etc), and space discovery is only in its infancy

assuming that the universe still has a good billion years (and assuming that their are multiple universes) and space discovery continues to gain ground... is the idea that humans can some how find a way out of this dying universe so hard to fathom?

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Old 18th November 2001, 06:44   #9
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Evolution is due to survival of the fittest, natural selection. Now unless something drastic happens (big ass war) natural selection has pretty much stopped in the human species. With advancing medical technology and out ability to create tools and products to help us to adapt to our environment procreation of all members of the species is possible. In laymen's terms, even dumb ass fucks can get to reproduce now a days (Darwin Award Winners excluded). So unless a drastic change of events occur natural selection is pretty much nil for humans. Though there is artificial means of evolution that we are starting to reach, genetic engineering. Why wait or nature to improve the species when we can do it ourselves. And in theory if the human body is self modified in the proper way and the trait effects the sex cells then that trait can be passed naturally, which is cool.
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Old 18th November 2001, 07:52   #10
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[a little side track]

i think Nu's onto something... we have already discovered a way to transplant a heart, imagine this:

human beings can live considerably longer than today, everything that eventually shuts down can be manufactured and replaced; i'm talking heart, lungs, kidneys, bladder, the whole damn thing, even skin can be replaced with some sort of synthetic material... life can be extended.

we can summarize it even further by saying that everything below the brain can be technologically replaced. how long can the human brain function if everything else is running at full capacity?

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Old 18th November 2001, 10:00   #11
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It appears to be that mental capacity is related to natural physical fitness. Most centarians are pretty mentally fit, but you'll find many 40yr old drunks who don't have a clue.

[a little sidetrack of my own]
If we accept that outside the bounds of the universe, there are no things, and existence ceases, then God must exist within the universe (because no thing exists beyond the universe). Would this mean that God is a physical thing? but more importantly, what would he be doing inside the thing He has created? And where was He before He created existence (the universe)?
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Old 18th November 2001, 15:54   #12
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Down the pub most likely. Deities seem to hang there a lot. I heard that Allah is a laughing stock in there at the moment...
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Old 18th November 2001, 16:15   #13
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if anything will happen it will be devolution by way of fat lazy slobs controlling the masses.

thus when the "forth reich of the rich" theory comes into play each sector of wasteland (earth will be a microwave) will be ruled by one of these devolved humanoids:
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Old 18th November 2001, 16:55   #14
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RM: There are a couple of things to consider here. Since you are assuming God exists, you are also assuming he is omnipotent. Most people don't realise the full meaning of the word: they tend to attach the constraits of human imagination to it. Not so. God can do *anything*, not just anything you can think of. He can reside wherever he wants - and not just in one place, which brings me to the next point.
Christians (and people of some other religions) will say he exists everywhere. He does indeed live within the universe: he also lives outside of it. Heaven and Hell are most likely not part of this universe: come armageddon, God's gonna nuke everything, the whole universe, leaving only Heaven intact. Saying the universe contains everything, and outside it existence ceases is (in my view at least) a false assumption.
Oh, and God is both physical (Jesus) and not (Holy Spirit). The Father I reckon can be either. He is omnipotent after all.

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Old 18th November 2001, 18:16   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by 7icha7d
Christians (and people of some other religions) will say he exists everywhere. He does indeed live within the universe: he also lives outside of it. Heaven and Hell are most likely not part of this universe: come armageddon, God's gonna nuke everything, the whole universe, leaving only Heaven intact. Saying the universe contains everything, and outside it existence ceases is (in my view at least) a false assumption.
A) I wrote a nice piece on how God can't be benevolent and omnipotent at the same time. If I find it, I'll post it here.

B) The universe (at least in the metaphysical sense of the word) is existence. Possibly the universe is infinite, because existence itself maybe infinite. I don't know. But, I do know (to a certain degree of certainty, at least) that since the universe is all of existence, there is no thing, and no existence outside of it. This is hard to imagine, a state of no-thingness. The closest we can come to conceiving this is a vacuum, which is nothing (that's still a thing; an absence of something). So, if you say God lives outside the universe, you are denying his state of existence. There can be no thing outside the universe, because the universe holds everything.
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Old 18th November 2001, 18:21   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by Radioactive Man
There can be no thing outside the universe, because the universe holds everything.
I'm not seeing how you can state that with such certainty.

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Old 18th November 2001, 18:26   #17
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Because the metaphysical definition of "universe" is like the definition of "one". "One" means "a single thing". Therefore, it cannot mean "a single thing", and "two things" at the same time. "Universe" means "all of existence". Therefore, it cannot mean "all of existence", and "not some of existence" at the same time.
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Old 18th November 2001, 18:30   #18
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I saw a thing like this on the discovery channel.
It was about how we might adapt to other enviroments in the universe, and how we might travel to differnt planets and adapt there to avoid the destruction of our race from the sun. It was very interesting.
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Old 18th November 2001, 20:25   #19
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The universe is of little concern to me, a mere mortal (), so i am off to join the gods down the pub. Its Wotans turn to buy shots!
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Old 18th November 2001, 20:48   #20
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read "manifold: time" by stephen baxter
tries to answer all those questions, and in a VERY good book
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Old 19th November 2001, 00:27   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by Radioactive Man
Because the metaphysical definition of "universe" is like the definition of "one". "One" means "a single thing". Therefore, it cannot mean "a single thing", and "two things" at the same time. "Universe" means "all of existence". Therefore, it cannot mean "all of existence", and "not some of existence" at the same time.
RM, you are too hung up on definitions; if God is what you are concerned about i'll have to agree with 7icha7d- the defintions and boundaries that you are setting are only "frames" they are only reference points

If God does exist and he is omnipresent, he is therefor ubiquitious; meaning he is in this universe, and other possible universes, heaven, hell, earth, inside black holes, in the core of the sun.... EVERYWHERE

when we speak of the universe we do speak of one entity but that is only because we don't have evidence of other universes. let's create a word for everything, everything meaning ALL possible spaces that can hold other objects (whether they be life-like or merely gaseous, or whatever).... we'll call this place planeX, within this place exists all the universes, GOD, life, and any other type of object regardless of shape, form, or substance. it is infinite, and undying..... and contains EVERYTHING

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Old 19th November 2001, 01:00   #22
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Ok, for the sake of argument, let's call everything Creation. Creation includes everything physical (matter) and everything metaphysical (forms and concepts). God created Creation, right? Until Creation was created, no thing (matter, ideas, etc.) existed. So where was God before he created Creation?
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Old 19th November 2001, 10:51   #23
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Or, to pose the question from an unreligous viewpoint, where did the matter that started the big bang come from? Maybe before this "Creation" there was another one. Maybe not. Maybe God is part of nothingness as well. It's futile to speculate on it, as you cannot back your views up with evidence: nobody knows.

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Old 19th November 2001, 14:02   #24
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ok, forget God in this discussion, we live in a godless creation

still the idea of what existed before existence (physical and metaphysical) is something that i have struggled with for years-

a philosophy professor i had a few years back wouldn't even get near the topic because he said it was useless in trying to figure it out.

but still, there had to have been something; perhaps it is all cyclical, when creation dies, it gives birth to a new creation, but then the problem is what happened and existed before the first creation?

if we create a model that is infinte and undying, even that model had to be created out of something...

perhaps it is pointless in trying to reach back that far...

back to the initial question: if mankind is able to somehow stretch its own mortal limits and eventually be formed more mechanically than organically- and assuming that eventually we are able to move life beyond this planet, and interstellar space travel is made infinetly faster... is a move to a safer universe not possible?

consider this also... if mankind pushes technology to a point where humans are all machine except the mind... isn't teleportation possible? and if that is the case, can not the mind move anywhere?

even more extreme would be to consider in the distant future a human being existing in nothing but thoughts... we will be able to live metaphysically, without the need for a physical body- if so, how is it ever possible for an end to such a race?

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Old 19th November 2001, 14:15   #25
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The problem is the human brain is just not equipped to think about, to comprehend such ideas. Thinking directly about, or imagining, eternity, infinity, a time without time, oblivion, is impossible. Just try and *imagine* what eternity is like, or what it would be like if you had never been born, or an infinite space - if you are doing it properly, you will find it impossible. Mostly, the reverse is also impossible - thinking about if time ends, if there is a limit to space, eternal life - that's just as hard.
So the only way to tackle these problems is to think *round* them as it were, applying logic and philosophy to it and only thinking about the idea of it, not the actuality. It doesn't help that our language, while capable of abstract constructions is not that good at it - often if you get too deep you will be stuck for words, or worse get sidetracked into debating the connotations of a word (like "universe" above) rather than the actual thing itself. Maybe our next evolution will be to be able to debate such issues more succesfully - although it is true that natural selection for humans is more or less gone.

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Old 19th November 2001, 20:35   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Boplicity
back to the initial question: if mankind is able to somehow stretch its own mortal limits and eventually be formed more mechanically than organically- and assuming that eventually we are able to move life beyond this planet, and interstellar space travel is made infinetly faster... is a move to a safer universe not possible?

consider this also... if mankind pushes technology to a point where humans are all machine except the mind... isn't teleportation possible? and if that is the case, can not the mind move anywhere?

even more extreme would be to consider in the distant future a human being existing in nothing but thoughts... we will be able to live metaphysically, without the need for a physical body- if so, how is it ever possible for an end to such a race?
A) No, because between universes, there is no thing. Unless, all universes where contained in one large universe. But in that case, when the large universe dies, then we are screwed.

B) Metaphysical things are not bound by the laws of physics, so yes. But for anything to be really real, it must have a form. If it doesn't, it's just an imaginary concept... an abstraction.
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Old 19th November 2001, 20:39   #27
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I learned everything I know about the Universe from Mystery Science Theater 3000, Space Ghosts, and Douglas Adams books. The universe is big and dark and really fucking big.
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Old 19th November 2001, 20:47   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by NuLoser
I learned everything I know about the Universe from Mystery Science Theater 3000, Space Ghosts, and Douglas Adams books. The universe is big and dark and really fucking big.
But double galzing salesmen ALWAYS track you down!
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Old 19th November 2001, 22:19   #29
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my theory, assuming im not racist against anyone:

people started as the bacteria, which mutated, mutated, mutated into higher forms of life. each mutation is like down syndrome, the bacteria gained an extra chromosome. so, people with down syndrome are either the next evolutional step UP the ladder, or humans have reached their peak and are beginning to devolve.

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Old 19th November 2001, 22:44   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by Radioactive Man
But for anything to be really real, it must have a form. If it doesn't, it's just an imaginary concept... an abstraction.
again with the definitions, RM... your definition of real is bound by the laws which you deem to be present, now; abstraction has its own values- different beings in different enviornments are subject to a different set of laws... solid or not, its completely up to the subjectivity of the observer (which is in turn defined by the observer's own perception)

*just like the theory of worlds within worlds

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Old 20th November 2001, 11:15   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by Boplicity
if mankind pushes technology to a point where humans are all machine except the mind... isn't teleportation possible? and if that is the case, can not the mind move anywhere?
I am assuming that by "mind" you mean our being, personality, the part that thinks and feels. *If* it is possible to convert this to a form of data, then I suppose it would be possible to transmit it to a suitable reciever. However, I doubt this is the case - I do not believe our soul/mind/spirit or whatever can be seperated from our body - or at least our brain. Unless we can find a way to succesfully teleport brain matter I don't think that that is possible. I believe that at least until we die our soul or whatever is stuck firmly in our bodies. Still, who knows?

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Old 20th November 2001, 14:13   #32
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ok if's its form you're looking for, can we agree that the mind will eventually be able to exist only as a tiny piece of matter, i mean that is something tangible right; about this size ---> *

the human body condenced to its essential needs

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Old 20th November 2001, 15:20   #33
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Not sure you can say that. There's a lot of brain that scientists don't know anything about: and we also don't know where, if anywhere, the mind or whatever 'lives'. I don't think we can really guess how small the tissue needed to house the mind is.

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Old 20th November 2001, 16:34   #34
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speaking of religion... have you guys ever wondered (those who believe in God) if we will ever achieve the formlessness of the almighty great one? i mean there must come a time when the world will end and the savior will take us to another place... we will surely not be organic then, right?

it's a shame i don't believe in a god... i do however believe in my incredibly strong teeth, i'll open any crammed-tight bottle cap

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Old 20th November 2001, 21:31   #35
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dude, that's the rapture you're talking about
according to something in the bible, just before judgement day jesus will come, take all believers away, and leave everyone else to suffer through the armageddon (read "left behind" first in a series of books like that, only problem: fundamentalist christian science fiction, kind of funny at points)

and if you mean become like God, that's not supposed to happen, God is supreme, meaning that nothing can be like him
the highest we could hope to be like is angels

(sorry if i sound like a fanatic, i'm not, it's just these are things that i'veheard)
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Old 21st November 2001, 08:27   #36
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It says in the Bible that after armageddon we will all be given new bodies (well, Christians will anyway). Our aim is to become as close to being like God as possible. We will not become omnipotent or omniscient or omnipresent like God but we *will* become sin free, pure like God.

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Old 21st November 2001, 08:30   #37
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He may be YOUR ancestor, but he's not OUR ancestor.

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Old 21st November 2001, 12:25   #38
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Quote:
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It says in the Bible that after armageddon we will all be given new bodies (well, Christians will anyway).
i don't believe in God, but i live a morally sound life, and try to do good... i've done nothing to hurt other people, and try my hardest to help when i can... what happens to me? am i fuct?

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Old 21st November 2001, 12:41   #39
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No. That is wrong.

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Old 21st November 2001, 12:57   #40
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jns, i'm a little confused about god (in the christian sense)

i've heard two very contradictory things:

1) God is just, loving, understanding, and forgiving- he will forgive those who are genuinely good on judgement day, regardless of whether they believe in him or not- and they shall be saved

2) God is jealous and angry (i have friends who believe this & i have heard this on religious programming)- he will only save those who openly believe in him, and consciously repent- those who don't believe will be damned, even those who were born into another religion, because they didn't take the time (or effort) to find christianity.

have you heard these veiws before? what is the reason for the discrepency? i understand that the bible can be interpreted in many different ways... but there are so many differing views about it that it all just seems so silly- that we put so much importance on a scripture that appears to be so similar to modern day science-fiction

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