Old 16th December 2004, 19:39   #1
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Are Atoms aware? or Intelligent even?

Do Atoms know what they are? or are they just that an Atom?

Would it be reasonable to consider that for an Atom to exist in conjunction with another Atom that it must be aware of it's neighbouring Atoms?

And if an Atom is 'Aware' of it's neighbour, then would it be true to state that it must be 'Aware' of itself?

Every thing is made from them and that includes us, any thing even the Air that surrounds us but what says that an Atom of carbon belongs to a human being say and yet the same type of Atom is a part of the surrounding Air?

If then, we follow a course that says that Atoms are 'Aware' and that they 'Know' what, where they are, would that not mean that every thing that has happened and is happening is 'recorded' somehow? and that we can 'Read' this stored information...

Essentially then 'Are Atoms Aware and if so do we then follow that they have Intelligence'?


Just some off- topic thoughts in relation to Mia's thread on Robots and A.I.

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Old 16th December 2004, 19:49   #2
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Well, I study chemistry and according to me, the answer is a rotund NO. They're lifeless little things, but they do cause some people to get very excited (some chemists. Not me). They have electrons whizzing round in them and you can actually "see" them using STM (Scanning Tunneling Microscopy):



That's iron atoms on a copper surface.

But I don't think they're aware. That does bring the question of "how come WE are aware, then, if we're made up of inanimate specks of matter" and I struggle to decide upon an answer for myself there.
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Old 16th December 2004, 19:58   #3
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Not EVERYTHING are made of atoms. There are such things as quark stars. Made of, uh... quarks.

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Old 16th December 2004, 20:00   #4
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That does bring the question of "how come WE are aware, then, if we're made up of inanimate specks of matter"
Exactly my point! Is it actually us who are aware or is it the Atom? Or is it because via electrical impulse and the order we then place the Atomical structure that gives us this ability - the ability of 'Awareness'.

We also have to factor in a very important point (and probably the most important facet IMHO) Resonance. After all even an inanimate object is made from Atoms and those Atoms are 'Alive' in that to exist they have a resonance.

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Old 16th December 2004, 20:09   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wolfgang
Well, I study chemistry and according to me, the answer is a rotund NO. They're lifeless little things, ...
No offense intended, but that is a very chauvanistic answer. Just because something is beyond our comprehension, doesn't mean it can't be.

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Old 16th December 2004, 20:11   #6
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I don't think it is physically possible for something without bodily organs, or a brain in the matter, to try to became "aware" of their surroundings, understand it, then react to it in their own specific way. They can't be that intellegent.

But then again I am proving myself wrong by saying we get infected with bacteria and viruses all the time that seemingly "know" where to attack, infect, and then produce inside the host. The issue of how the common cold is slowly becoming immune to most antibiotics because we are breeding a superbug that "learns" from the antibodies is an example.
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Old 16th December 2004, 20:28   #7
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Atoms are made of electrons, protons and neutrons. The atom itself isn't a single object, but a collection of anywhere between two to hundreds of these three fundamental particles. And even more so, there are lots more particles, such as quarks (three of which make up protons and neutrons), w and z bosons (weak nuclear force carriers, which play a role in transmuting one quark to another type (or leptons into another type of lepton) as well as forming heavy nuclei), gluons, which hold atomic nuclei together, as well as hold the quarks together in the form of protons and neutrons, as well as more than a dozen other elementary particles. If atoms are “alive”, then the elementary particles that make up the atom (or in some way, have to do with its formation and structure) must be alive as well. If none of the elementary particles are alive, and yet the atom is, then it can just as likely be that atoms are not alive, yet the combination of atoms into molecules and other more complex structures can be alive. The latter is my belief and take on it.

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Old 16th December 2004, 20:32   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by CaboWaboAddict
No offense intended, but that is a very chauvanistic answer. Just because something is beyond our comprehension, doesn't mean it can't be.
True. But I did say "according to me."

I really don't think atoms are anything more than a collection of subatomic particles, as Gogitta said, that somehow, when arranged properly, create something aware. There is something missing in the whole "what sparked life off" thing, and I haven't made up my mind yet. Maybe I never will.
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Old 16th December 2004, 20:41   #9
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Old 16th December 2004, 20:45   #10
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My opinion is basically the same as Wolfgang's and Gogitta's. To me, atoms are not alive since they don't grow, have a metabolism (they can change charge but I don't consider that a metabolism), and they cannot reproduce themselves - not regarding core reactions since they are not reproduction as we consider it but simply falling apart. Since they are not alive, they cannot be aware of themselves or their surroundings. They act because of their forces around it but in my opinion do not have a knowledge about it nor have a choice to do so. Intelligence for me is the ability to learn or solve problems which atoms clearly don't posess.

I have to agree though that the microscopic worls is fascinating, even more proteins that are designed in a way to just react to certain elements and perform work only when it's needed - they are not aware either but the whole machinery is nevertheless extremely interesting - for me at least, that's why I study biochemistry

Cabo - I don't think Wolfgang meant it the way that no one else can have a different opinion, we were asked to give our thoughts and he simply stated what his opinion was.

And I'm glad that my other thread inspired you Smeggle!

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Old 16th December 2004, 20:46   #11
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It isn't really the atoms their selves that arrange themselves into something that create something aware. Clumps of different atoms form molecules (some of which are amino acids), which can form DNA (another acid, deoxyribonucleic acid, to be exact), which can lead to the formation of virus’ with the help of other acids and molecules, which can lead to single-celled organisms, which can later evolve to multi-cellular organisms, and so on and so forth, until you get to the human species. It just so happens that the brains of humans are able to “think” ((develop complex response to simple stimuli, to which the entire body responds to (the response to the stimuli itself becomes a stimuli)). This “thinking” gave rise to more complex thought, which eventually allowed us to come to the conclusion that we “think, therefore, we are”.

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Old 16th December 2004, 21:15   #12
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And a man on acid today decided that all matter is just energy moving very slowly.
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Old 16th December 2004, 21:39   #13
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yeah, i suppose it is.
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Old 16th December 2004, 21:46   #14
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I think that you're all clueless
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Old 16th December 2004, 22:37   #15
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im more clueless... on further note;
were only human... humans use go... simple... like anyother animal ... (genesis, cell, whatever, atoms*) .. there just here to be used by us... but we have the brains to do what they can do... but there brains are our brains... they ARE THERE FOR THE TAKING... like anyother human lifeform -
-> Cow -> Processed -> Eaten -> Shit -> cooked -> end of life ...
but they dont have to be used...

i am not normal, no really.
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Old 16th December 2004, 22:44   #16
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GrammarBot v .05 Loaded
Attempting to parse thread.


Line 02: we're only human... humans use go... simple...
Error! Bad Grammar Overload!

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Old 16th December 2004, 22:49   #17
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Quote:
They can't be that intellegent.
The following isn't very relevant to the topic, since we've already established and seemimngly agreed that atoms are lifeless, but am I right in assuming there's a difference between intelligence and instinct?


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Old 16th December 2004, 22:52   #18
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you got the point though didnt you? + they should include a grammar check & spell check :P

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Old 16th December 2004, 22:54   #19
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I'd say there is a big difference, short said, to me instinct is simply the ability to react accordingly on your environment, maybe even from experience, but intelligence is the ability to reason and plan your actions rather than just do something without considering effects etc. Now if it is always better to act according to your intellect and not your instincts is a whole different question

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Old 16th December 2004, 22:57   #20
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Actually, I couldn't understand it at all. "Humans use go" - that makes no sense whatsoever.

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Old 16th December 2004, 23:16   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mrs_Mia_Wallace Now if it is always better to act according to your intellect and not your instincts is a whole different question
Considering the afformentioned information, I'm guessing it's like this: Instinct kicks in when intelligence fails to preform.


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Old 16th December 2004, 23:33   #22
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i was being simplistic =P humans have always something up... until its dry-DEAD/extinct... e.g. trees...
as a side topic-http://images.google.com/images?q=michelle+behennah&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&start=40&sa=N

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Old 17th December 2004, 00:12   #23
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Haven't you people read anything?

It clearly states in the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy that we are nothing but pawns of the lab mice who are actively trying to find the question with the answer 42, by using the most powerful computer ever...
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Old 17th December 2004, 00:46   #24
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so that makes you a hitchhiker?

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Old 17th December 2004, 01:34   #25
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Actually the original pawns of the mice died out cause our spaceship crash landed on the experiment planet. duh.
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Old 17th December 2004, 01:46   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by S-uper_T-oast
And a man on acid today decided that all matter is just energy moving very slowly.
"Today young men on acid realised that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration."
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Old 17th December 2004, 01:52   #27
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Re: Are Atoms aware? or Intelligent even?

Quote:
Originally posted by Smeggle
Do Atoms know what they are? or are they just that an Atom?

Would it be reasonable to consider that for an Atom to exist in conjunction with another Atom that it must be aware of it's neighbouring Atoms?

And if an Atom is 'Aware' of it's neighbour, then would it be true to state that it must be 'Aware' of itself?

Every thing is made from them and that includes us, any thing even the Air that surrounds us but what says that an Atom of carbon belongs to a human being say and yet the same type of Atom is a part of the surrounding Air?

If then, we follow a course that says that Atoms are 'Aware' and that they 'Know' what, where they are, would that not mean that every thing that has happened and is happening is 'recorded' somehow? and that we can 'Read' this stored information...

Essentially then 'Are Atoms Aware and if so do we then follow that they have Intelligence'?


Just some off- topic thoughts in relation to Mia's thread on Robots and A.I.

~
1:
"Would it be reasonable to consider that for an Atom to exist in conjunction with another Atom that it must be aware of it's neighbouring Atoms? " No. It just shares an electron or two.

2:"And if an Atom is 'Aware' of it's neighbour, then would it be true to state that it must be 'Aware' of itself?" Most animals are inable to study themselves - In fact, I read somewhere that humans were the only creatures that WERE capable of studing themselves.

3: If then, we follow a course that says that Atoms are 'Aware' and that they 'Know' what, where they are, would that not mean that every thing that has happened and is happening is 'recorded' somehow? and that we can 'Read' this stored information..." how would they go about STORING the information (even if atoms were 'aware')? Do you know how an atom works?

Btw: This was after reading the FIRST post, not the rest.
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Old 17th December 2004, 02:48   #28
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Here is something most may not have thought of.

How do we know we are not Atoms ourselves existing inside a much larger Universe? for all we know each Solar System is the full Atom.
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Old 17th December 2004, 03:15   #29
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And how do we know that there arent tiny donkeys living in our water?


...because there's no reason to believe that.
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Old 17th December 2004, 03:28   #30
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That does bring the question of "how come WE are aware, then, if we're made up of inanimate specks of matter"
Because we're a collective system of these specs of matter working together to produce a specific output.
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Old 17th December 2004, 03:56   #31
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so an atom is 'aware' because it can attach itself to another atom given the right conditions? In that case train cars are also aware of each other, so are legos.
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Old 17th December 2004, 06:21   #32
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i wasn't aware that train cars and legos had the ability to attach theirselves to other train cars and legos using their own free will
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Old 17th December 2004, 06:47   #33
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Neither do atoms. That's like saying magnets attach themselves together with their own free will.
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Old 17th December 2004, 06:54   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shalken Rebirth
Here is something most may not have thought of.

How do we know we are not Atoms ourselves existing inside a much larger Universe? for all we know each Solar System is the full Atom.
i think you stole this from Men In Black, where the movie ends with the the alien playing marbles with universes.....
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Old 17th December 2004, 09:01   #35
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I was just saying his analogy was bad cognition, the magnet one is a much better example
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Old 17th December 2004, 12:08   #36
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Interesting where this is going...

With the magent thing though - that force is produced via the energy resonated by the atomical structure or the 'electro' - magnetic field is. (btw I accenuated 'electro' on purpose).

That doesn't neccessarily mean that Atoms are doing this via some intellectual understanding.

Wonder if resonance has a lot to do with it...

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Old 17th December 2004, 16:20   #37
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awareness as its used in the first post is a philasophical concept. Much like saying, it was cold outside, and the rain feeling the cool, turned itself into snow.

Sure they're away of neighboring atoms. You have all kinds of effects caused by neighboring atoms. Even some long distance effects caused by atoms that are just in the proximity, not actually bonded. But self aware? I doubt it. Awareness is just being used as an explaination for things that are difficult to formally explain. (see above example.)

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Old 17th December 2004, 16:22   #38
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magnatism has to do with the alignment of spin within the molecules. So its not resonance as its usually used in chemistry, but, sort of and it depends greatly on the type of magnatism that the compound expresses.

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Old 17th December 2004, 20:49   #39
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Quote:
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And a man on acid today decided that all matter is just energy moving very slowly.
It basically is...

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Old 17th December 2004, 21:27   #40
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thats what i said!
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