Old 30th September 2006, 14:44   #1
Faiakes
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Better ID tagging

Suggestion about Media Library & iD tags:

I would like to see the following: multi-genre tagging and handling.

What do I mean:

Currently an mp3 has a rating (1-5) and a single genre function which can be customised. It's the latter I wish to see expanded. One ought to be able to add as many "genres" or "moods" as one would like.

Example:
"Staying Alive" by the BeeGees. Currently I can give it 4/5 stars and set the genre to "Disco". What I'd like though is to be able to create multiple tags of it, like: set it to "Disco" + set it to "Dance" + set it to "70s" + set it to "Decade Classic" + set it to "Upbeat" + set it to "Anytime Favourite" + set it to "Party Classic" + etc...

This actually makes the use of star rating a bit obsolete, as it should be.

Why?

Because I have a huge music library, as most people do nowadays and will do so in the future (mine exceeds 200GB and it's growing).
This makes it hard to find what I want, when I want it efficiently.
When I am in a specific mood i want to be able to hear ALL the songs in my library which match that mood.

Example:
I am in an upbeat mood, getting ready to go out (Friday/Saturday night) to various clubs and I want to listen to some equally upbeat music while I'm dressing up. I open WinAmp (naturally), go to the Media Library, where all the moods/genres I have entered can be found in a some sort of menu, I choose a mood/theme/genre and as soon as it is registered and presented somewhere, the menu does not lock, just in case I wish to add some more mood/theme/genre descriptors for what I want to listen to. If I do then the process is repeated in a loop.

Thus, if "Dance" + "Anytime Classic" are my mood/theme/genre choices then both "Staying Alive" and "Rythm is a Dancer" and "Freestyler" ought to be selected, i.e. songs from the 70s, 90s and 00s which all have the word "Dance" in their description tag (as I would like to able to do), something which is not possible currently.

If i choose the "Dance" genre in WinAmp now it will only bring up current dance songs like "Freestyler", otherwise I would have to have registered "Staying Alive" only as "Dance" which is not an accurate description of that song.

Other details:

It would be best if this info could fit in the ID tag of each song (unlikely, I know). If that's not possible then the Media Library should be able to assign those extra values. This should be irrespective of file location, so as to maintain our preferences of song compilations, which can take years to tweak to perfection. That, ability would probably need a basic fuzzy logic funnction too, just in case a song is not spelled exactly as stored in the Media Library preferences, with an option to confirm wheter it is the spelling that is wrong or whether it is indeed a different song.

Each combination of descriptors ought to be able to be saved too. Perhaps with unified short description name by which to recall them.

Example:
I ought to be able to open my Compilations Selector (or whatever you name it) and choose "Friday/Saturday night" (there should be no limit on the number of characters describing any saved compilation), run it, and have all the moods which I assigned to that description bring up all the relevant songs.

A file that can be exported ought to be able to hold all descriptors and descriptor combinations. And an import function to re-introduce our preferences after a WinAmp re-install or OS install.

There should also be an option to do so with or without having to rescan my library. Refreshing a large library can take hours and it's only necessary if you've added new songs to your database. Hence, an additional usefull feature would be to be able to right-click on a song and be able to add it to a saved mood/theme/genre compilation, if there is one, instead of having to do a whole library scan.

Also, it would be nice if I could listen to all those songs in a random, alphabetical or even a custom defined order.


If you do decide to implement my idea I don't want any money but I do want to be credited with it.

That's all, I think.

Last edited by Faiakes; 30th September 2006 at 15:18.
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Old 30th September 2006, 15:23   #2
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To do this with Winamp use the ID3v2 comment field to store any additional information you wish, and use queries (or views) in the media library to filter files.

You might run into a character limit of 256, not with Winamp but with programs on other operating systems and some portable devices.

Otherwise, it seems what you're asking for is for Winamp to support user-defined tag fields.
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Old 30th September 2006, 15:29   #3
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Quote:
Originally posted by Early Devil
To do this with Winamp use the ID3v2 comment field to store any additional information you wish, and use queries (or views) in the media library to filter files.

You might run into a character limit of 256, not with Winamp but with programs on other operating systems and some portable devices.
So, words seperated by space?
And then go to Media Library, View, ... ? (where?)

Quote:
Originally posted by Early Devil
Otherwise, it seems what you're asking for is for Winamp to support user-defined tag fields.
Yes, and multiple ones per song, is that bad?
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Old 30th September 2006, 15:57   #4
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We're hoping to support multiple genres when we develop the next version of the Media Library (hopefully ready by 5.4)
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Old 30th September 2006, 15:58   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by Faiakes
So, words seperated by space?
And then go to Media Library, View, ... ? (where?)
Yep. Or separated by commas, to keep things clear.

Then in the Media Library, right-click Local Media > Add Smart View
At the 'Advanced Editor' tab, give the view a name (eg. Upbeat) and type as query eg.
comment has "Upbeat"

The same type of queries can be used to search the ML database, by adding a question mark in front:
?comment has "Upbeat"


Just a workaround, of course.

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Old 30th September 2006, 16:05   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by Faiakes
Yes, and multiple ones per song, is that bad?
I think it would be a very good thing.

edit: Multiple genre fields works just as well, because you can put whatever information you want in there. That's good news, Benski.
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Old 30th September 2006, 16:14   #7
Faiakes
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Quote:
Originally posted by Benski
We're hoping to support multiple genres when we develop the next version of the Media Library (hopefully ready by 5.4)
That would increase the value of WinAmp compared to other players ten-fold.

All players can play songs but none so far can manage the sheer volume of large databases efficiently.

Playlists are OK but limited and are bound to file location.

The Media Library could acquire an interface to assign such descriptors to more than one song at time (even whole folders and sub-folders) to speed things up.

The workaround suggested by siebe83, works but it means editting each song individually, to add the descriptors. That will take forever. A UI is needed with the ability to add one or more than one comments (descriptors) to a song or a number of songs.

Last edited by Faiakes; 30th September 2006 at 17:27.
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Old 30th September 2006, 16:23   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by siebe83
Yep. Or separated by commas, to keep things clear.

Then in the Media Library, right-click Local Media > Add Smart View
At the 'Advanced Editor' tab, give the view a name (eg. Upbeat) and type as query eg.
comment has "Upbeat"

The same type of queries can be used to search the ML database, by adding a question mark in front:
?comment has "Upbeat"


Just a workaround, of course.
i tried but the query had to be

comment == "upbeat"

it works so far but with a single descriptor. i will try more than one and let you know in a minute.

Thanks siebe83

It looks like the suggested WinAmp multi-genre interface won't have to be too drastic. It'd just have to be able to add such descriptors to the comment field of the ID tag, from a Media Library UI, and then only need to save (export) my own combination of descriptors and its short name (again, irrespective of location - but I guess forcing a library scan, or with file location, without needing a Library refresh scan.)
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Old 30th September 2006, 16:27   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by Faiakes
i tried but the query had to be

comment == "upbeat"
Now that's weird. 'has' works fine here.

== means that the comment has to equal "upbeat", so that query will only return files that have just "upbeat" in the comment tag. You then won't be able to add more genre descriptions to the comment tag.

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Old 30th September 2006, 16:29   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by siebe83
Now that's weird. 'has' works fine here.

== means that the comment has to equal "upbeat", so that query will only return files that have just "upbeat" in the comment tag. You then won't be able to add more genre descriptions to the comment tag.
Actually I have but this way:

comment = "upbeat dance classic"

but you ar right, i am still experimenting with it, give me a sec.
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Old 30th September 2006, 16:38   #11
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OK, i got it. You confused me because you went straight for the command line.

In "Simple View Editor", I give a name to that Smart Query.

then:
click the "+" button below,
first field, select "Comment"
second field, select "contains"
third fied, add the actual descriptor.

repeat steps to add another descriptor for that Smart Query

that's right, yes?
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Old 30th September 2006, 16:45   #12
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That's right. And connect the descriptors by using AND or OR as needed.
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Old 30th September 2006, 16:47   #13
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Does that have to be done manually in the Advanved tab?
edit: I got it, is that the ANY option in the Simple View tab?

Why would i be interested in the OR function?

Wouldn't I have simply another query with just what I need?
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Old 30th September 2006, 16:51   #14
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Depends on what you want to do. Suppose you want to have a view that returns files with either Dance, Upbeat or Disco as descriptors, then you would need to add in the OR operator.
Or in the Simple View Editor, select 'Match ANY of the following conditions'.

If you only want files that have all of those descriptors, you use the AND operator (or select 'Match ALL of the following conditions' in the Simple View Editor).

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Old 30th September 2006, 16:55   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by siebe83
Depends on what you want to do. Suppose you want to have a view that returns files with either Dance, Upbeat or Disco as descriptors, then you would need to add in the OR operator.
Or in the Simple View Editor, select 'Match ANY of the following conditions'.
Yes, that's what i thought.

I would then have had ready made combinations with AND, instead of modifying an original on the fly.

That's what I meant by saying that it takes a long time to develop these combinations to perfection, which is why there should an export/import feature added. (even with Smart Query, since it's going to be some time before full multi-genre tagging is available).
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Old 30th September 2006, 17:11   #16
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I'm not sure what you mean by import/export. If you mean you want to save the custom Smart Views you made for future use (eg. after a Winamp re-install) then you could backup the file that contains the queries info.

This info is stored in gen_ml.ini, which can be found in the Winamp plugins folder:
C:\Program Files\Winamp\Plugins

Or in case you selected 'Separate settings for each user' in the installer, here:
C:\Documents and Settings\<yourusername>\Application Data\Winamp\Plugins

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Old 30th September 2006, 17:15   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by siebe83
I'm not sure what you mean by import/export. If you mean you want to save the custom Smart Views you made for future use (eg. after a Winamp re-install) then you could backup the file that contains the queries info.

This info is stored in gen_ml.ini, which can be found in the Winamp plugins folder:
C:\Program Files\Winamp\Plugins

Or in case you selected 'Separate settings for each user' in the installer, here:
C:\Documents and Settings\<yourusername>\Application Data\Winamp\Plugins
Yes, that's what i meant.
Thanks for the location info.
See, I would never have guessed where that file was otherwise.

The point is not to make the average user have to wonder about it, too. Not everybody is comfortable with looking for files in the c drive.

A simple menu addition, with an import/export function would make saving this file much easier. (for everyone, not just the average user)

It's just easier to: export, (define location) and have the query entries copied & pasted over there, like a back-up medium.
And similarly an import function, to reintroduce it.
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Old 30th September 2006, 17:19   #18
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Yeah, that would be nice. Not only for the custom views, but also for the ML playlists (imo ).

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Old 30th September 2006, 17:35   #19
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OK, that's sorted.

Looking ahead now, if multi-genres are saved in the comment field, we run into a problem.

What if the comment field already has comments in it?

Does WinAmp delete it or ignore it and add the descriptors at the end of the pre-existing text?

If the former, we may want to keep the text.

If the latter, the old text may contain words which I use as descriptors, thus interfering with my selection process.

Is there another way of doing muti-genres without interfering with the comment field?

(I was hoping that one day WinAmp would use the comment field for Song Lyrics, thus becoming the Ultimate music player...yes i know there is a plugin)
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Old 30th September 2006, 17:53   #20
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Just to avoid any confusion: I'm just a Winamp user, like you. My opinions do not have any direct influence on the development of Winamp.

As Benski (a Winamp developer) said, support for multiple genres will come in a future version.
As I posted above, Early Devil's/my suggestion (i.e. using the Comment field) is merely a possible workaround until proper multiple genre support is implemented.

As to how this proper implementation will look like exactly, I don't know, but it won't be using the Comment field.

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Old 30th September 2006, 17:55   #21
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I didn't think you were a dev (no offence), i was just asking.

By the way, what do people think about WinAmp doing lyrics instead of a plugin?
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Old 30th September 2006, 18:34   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by Faiakes
I didn't think you were a dev (no offence), i was just asking.
I got that idea because you said "that's sorted" once I said I agreed

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Old 1st October 2006, 01:49   #23
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Quote:
By the way, what do people think about WinAmp doing lyrics instead of a plugin?
I think there is a separate lyrics field within Id3v2 tags, just that winamp doesn't read/write to it.
Hopefully that can be changed (along with album cover support) in a future update.

Also, the new album artist field is pretty useful, but the nature of that tag is that you have to go through each song in the album individually.
It would be great if the developers could add that in under the 'Edit Selected Items' dialog.
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Old 7th October 2006, 13:08   #24
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I'm sorry having to admit that currently winamp has the worst ID3 tag editor, if put in comparison with the competing. MediaMonkey and J River Mediacenter 11 widely outclass the raw tag editor embedded in winamp. Yet I don't see why the developers of the best and more diffused existing player have to find impediments or problems to improve this functionality, ESSENTIAL for the real music lovers.
Just give a look to Mediamonkey and its editor. Or a commercial Tagger like DrTag, Tag & Rename, Abander TagControl.
I don't want Winamp replaces them, it's not its aim, but just add basi tag features.
I.e. selecting more than one MP3 in the library and editing them, I need a check box near each ID3 field to mass set that field for every files I've selected. And why not the possibility to add a cover art directly from the tag editor (like Mediamonkey, with drag'n'drop support)?
Of course it would be a dream to have the possibility to look for cover art and album infos from amazon (expecially amazon.de that has almost everything about music) and allmusic.com or discogs.com
But maybe those things are really a dream...
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Old 7th October 2006, 14:33   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sunemesys
I don't want Winamp replaces them, it's not its aim, but just add basi tag features.
I.e. selecting more than one MP3 in the library and editing them, I need a check box near each ID3 field to mass set that field for every files I've selected.
You can already do this via: Edit Selected Item(s)

Maybe you didn't see that in the right-click menu, or something?

Though yeah, you can currently only mass edit:
Artist, Album, Genre, Year, Comments
(Title & Track# are also there, but are obviously not really mass-editable items).
There'll be more to come in future releases, for sure.


@Hayden_54
Winamp's ID3v2 editor does actually see the existing Lyrics/Cover fields (it certainly doesn't overwrite them when editing tags anyway), it's just that nothing is coded to actually use them... at the moment. Again, I'm sure this will change eventually.
Trust us, things will only get better from hereon.
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Old 8th December 2006, 08:46   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Benski
We're hoping to support multiple genres when we develop the next version of the Media Library (hopefully ready by 5.4)
Looking forward to this! I also want to thank siebe83 and Early Devil for the smart view instructions. I've never used a smart view but will now using the comment field. I've been trying to note all my classic rock tracks (which are also some other genre, e.g. progressive rock, blues rock, hard rock, etc.) but couldn't find a method to search for those using the comment field. I'll likely do the same for my electronic collection. Thanks!
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Old 5th January 2007, 14:03   #27
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This is The One feature I've been waiting for some time now, hope it's out soon!!!

How's the dev going on this Benski?
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Old 23rd January 2007, 09:57   #28
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Suggestions for multiple genre dev

Hi, I agree with all the above. Multiple genres would be awesome. Multiple artist tag-ability is also required. With the Media Library this quickly becomes apparent.

My suggestion is as follows:
  • The simplest multiple genre implementation would be a tagging style field (in the web-2.0 sense). See del.icio.us or flickr for example implementations.
  • The user would be free to enter as many genres as they want in free-text, separated by some separator character e.g. ;
  • Free-form text input is key for user-friendliness, but to avoid slight derivative spellings forming two genres, tagging software and media libraries could suggest what to write based on the genres already present in the user's library or 'tag cloud'. For example, is it 'electronic', 'electronic music', 'electro', 'electro-pop' or 'electronica'? Or something else? Your media-library would suggest whatever you'd previously used, but you'd equally be free to type electro-punk-funk if you felt like it.
  • The ID3 standard and the Vorbis standards both allow this already!
  • The Media Library would then file the tracks under *all* the genres listed.

Henry
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Old 25th February 2007, 20:02   #29
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@spacefish
@cbzen
@zrenneh

Glad to see you like the idea. It seems such a long way to v5.4 though!

I can understand why the WinAmp devs want to get Unicode support, FLAC, APE, (WavPack, too hopefully), Lyrics, right first but our 1000s of songs just can't wait.

It'll take me forever to properly tag my library but the only thing that keeps me patient is that I have many FLAC files so I'd like to have them tagged too.
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Old 3rd November 2007, 11:40   #30
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5.5 but still no multi-tagging?

So we reached 5.5 but still no multi-tagging.

Or has it been implemented and I haven't realised?
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Old 30th November 2007, 13:30   #31
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It's supported, if you go alt + 3 > advanced, you can see multiple artist tags!
What I don't see is a way to display those as multiple columns (so they are currently invisible).

I don't know about assigning multiple genre tags.

Actually, how do you manually assign multiple artists, for that matter?
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Old 20th December 2007, 00:20   #32
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Is multi-tagging still not implemented?

It's been requested so many times over so many years...
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Old 20th December 2007, 10:50   #33
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You can multi-tag using the Media Library's 'Edit Items' box (as previously mentioned) but you still can't use the 'File Info' box for multiple files at once.

[EDIT] Sorry, this isn't related. I didn't read enough of the thread to know what was being asked for.

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Old 20th December 2007, 11:29   #34
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Thanks J_Darnley, but that's not what "multi-tagging" refers to here.

It refers to being able to give multiple artist/genre/etc fields to individual tracks, like so:

Artist = "Christina Aguilera; Britney Spears"
Genre = "Pop; Dance; Top 40".

The top browse panels should then allow the user to find the track under both Christina Aguilera AND Britney Spears, and under the separate genres of Pop, Dance AND Top 40.
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Old 2nd January 2008, 14:47   #35
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oh please I was so disappointed when installing 5.5 to not find multigenre/tags !!
I'll just get back to v2 and write my own tag management library
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Old 1st March 2008, 23:57   #36
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It's possible winamp to manage user-defined tags?

Thank you,
Victor
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Old 15th September 2008, 16:07   #37
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I found this thread about a year ago, when I was looking for a media player that is able to do just what is requested in the first post. From time to time I check back here to see if something has happened.
Can somebody tell me if it is possible to use winamp the way the first post described yet? Or, if this isn't the case, does anybody know a mediaplayer that is able to do this?
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