Old 9th April 2014, 00:02   #241
musicf8
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As a Winamp user since ~v1.666, I say, bring the change!

It's time to let go of the shackles of the past, and build for a new and brighter future
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Old 9th April 2014, 03:58   #242
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Mostly, I feel that the past history has been to be silent until release. That generally according to my historical recall of AOL's trend was in many cases the issues. There was also many problems with regards to specificity of feature changes, removal or requirements of creators of plugins, skins and etc. Now, here we are in another's hands with the potential to repair the damages done, close the wounds that they created and find a way to bridge it.


How, well communicating clearly the direction, scope and goals of future releases.

Ex.: Winamp 5.7 will be releases as a result of extensive reworking of the streaming subsystems and will include feature x. We intend to have a general availability of this release at or around the insert date.

Instead of waiting to report.... engage with your users means more than answering their inane desire to have it their way. It means to put on the big boy pants and provide direction, leadership, communication and most importantly the plan.


Give us a reason to want to start continually updating our software....

Not, that anyone here is guilty or not. Just my thoughts...

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Old 9th April 2014, 04:56   #243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrO View Post
... and if help is needed for an option, then there's clearly something wrong with the option (either it's naming or just what it does).
It's not so much that help is needed for an option, but a greater awareness that extensive options are available and awareness of the extent to which Winamp's behavior can be modified is needed. I don't have any good ideas on how to increase that awareness. Maybe a few demonstration videos strategically placed. Marketing and advertising is not my strong suit.

Many (most) just go with the default 'out-of-the-box' experience. But some don't and maybe more users would be willing to improve or custom tailor their experience, if they knew more about what the options can do. The Winamp Preferences Guide is/was a good resource for those who knew about it and cared to use it.

Before it was fairly easy to get to. Now it's a sub-page of the Media Library Preferences page, which is a sub-page of the Winamp Media Library page, which is accessed from the main Support Center help page (accessed from the main context menu and/or F1 keyboard shortcut).

Burying the guide is a bad idea, imo. It is not intuitive that the general preferences guide is a subset of the media library help information. To me, it's the other way around. Access to the Winamp Preferences Guide should be promoted to the main Support Center help page, along with some way to encourage users to take a look at it.

There may be a better way to group the options, but reasonable people can always disagree on what is related to what, so I'm not overly concerned with the current grouping of things. And, I'm sure the main Support Center help page can be made more attractive and user-friendly, going forward. Many ignore help info because it's so boring, but it doesn't have to be that way.

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Old 9th April 2014, 05:37   #244
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Originally Posted by garetjax View Post
Instead of waiting to report.... engage with your users means more than answering their inane desire to have it their way. It means to put on the big boy pants and provide direction, leadership, communication and most importantly the plan.


Give us a reason to want to start continually updating our software....

Not, that anyone here is guilty or not. Just my thoughts...
I know it is hard to set and meet target dates, but garetjax makes a good point. Simply saying "it will be released when it's ready" doesn't cut it anymore.

Game vendors release promo videos of what's coming, press releases on what is planed, and even if everything doesn't make the final cut or there are delays, it keeps their customers engaged and looking forward to the new release.

Winamp is not a game, so that could be a bad reference. But I hope the idea behind it is valid.

Personally, I'm such a diehard Winamp fan I don't need this kind of encouragement. But it wouldn't hurt to promote more. Whatever the budget is, something should be set aside for this. I want Winamp to continue, which requires a mass market.

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Old 9th April 2014, 08:53   #245
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I have 17 laptops. One of them has Windows8.1 . The other 16 have all Linux Operating systems . On Linux I usuallly use gmusicbrowser to play my mp3 files.

Like I said I hope Radionomy will make a Linux Winamp. I like Radionomy because their objectives are not those of NullSoft or AOL. What is great about RADIONOMY is that Their targets are not based on MONEY because if they were based SOLELY ON MONEY THEY WOULDNT HAVE BOUGHT WINAMP. Because Winamp isnt profitable.. AOL knows it so well.
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Old 9th April 2014, 14:40   #246
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17 or 100 Doesn't make a difference. You cater to the largest markets first.

Desktop OS Market is Windows.
The mobile market Android
The Tablet market Android


I run several Linux Boxes and have never had a problem running Winamp. Not sure what your issue here is. Wine works great for many win32 Apps;


I'd rather they fix, update and repair problems that have been just that since AOL Assumed the reins and added all the craptastic features they did. I think DrO and others are being very giving considering the crunch they obviously must be under. However, I also believe that as of yet; we are still left in the dark holding our proverbial pencils wondering exactly what is to become of our product.

I say our, because we use it; we build for it; we extend the use of it through our identification of it being superior to its competitors. This relationship however, is waning as a result of the aforementioned issues. It cannot last forever in perpetuity; such that is has been.

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Old 9th April 2014, 15:02   #247
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we're still in the dark ourselves as well, as we're trying to sort out things so a new release can be made (which currently has no eta since it's not known how long re-building a number of key areas will take) or what we're going to use as replacements for some aspects (which is still being researched) i.e. if you think / know something in Winamp was licensed, it now needs to be reviewed and re-licensed or replaced with an alternative.

so that's a main reason there's not been much officially as there's little to say other than what has been said so far. as we're fully aware that whatever is released is going to be scrutinised a lot and that we cannot mess up i.e. unstable releases as the sale announcement has hit the user base numbers hard from what can be gauged.
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Old 9th April 2014, 15:43   #248
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I understand your points...but, the numbers are reflective of more than just usage/downloads.

Currently, the site is a flashy '404'. I know it doesn't seem like it, however it is about as useful. Seriously? Go to the forums to download the app that we have under our control? There has to be a better way? Get Notified? Of what precisely am I 'going to be notified of?' Without a disclaimer, or a mention as to what is going to be sent to me...uh no. Privacy Statements? Etc.

I'm no wiz at general usage...but, if I go to winamp.com (I expect to be able to download winamp.exe from said site...not go into forum, find relevant post and download from this location.)

I say there could be more effort on the 'landing page' 'construction page' 'Glorified 404' whatever you call it.

Not ranting at you DrO; I appreciate all that you do and all that you have done to educate, enlighten and assist. You have done a superb job near as I can tell.

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Old 9th April 2014, 16:00   #249
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direct downloads of Winamp cannot be provided due to the licensing aspects (especially as it's an AOL version and not our own). that's why it's a complete rigmarole on getting an 'official' download as technically, there just isn't one. hence what we've done is what can be done for the time being until a) licensing is sorted out and b) there's a non-AOL client available. and that's about all i can say on the matter due to my new and old terms of contract on the matter. and based on the sheer number of uninstall notifications (when the announcement went up compared to what is the case now, that whole process did the damage, not the lack of 'official' downloads, though i fully understand and agree that it's not ideal).

the sites (Winamp and SHOUTcast) are intentionally simple sites as that's what had to be done at the time they were put up (which was a rush due to the speed at which things were completed) and yes more should be on them as you note, but that's not been done and most likely won't be done now until the proper versions are deployed (yes it can be argued that is wrong, but that's just what is going to happen).

so there will be proper sites provided, but there's a lot of things that have to be decided, resources obtained and so on before they see the light of the day and also the priority in which they will be developed i.e. whether it's the Winamp or the SHOUTcast one which sees the light of day first. and then there's the time to develop things, which as i'm sure you'll agree, is often an unknown quantity and not as straightforward as people tend to think (as shown by the number of re-writes you've done on yours since taking it on ).
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Old 9th April 2014, 16:23   #250
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Agreed, I am all to familiar with what is required when developing. I especially, understand the criticality of doing it right the first time...as opposed to what I 'had' to do with my own site.

It is what it is; I am completely familiar with that...Though, less than optimal. I realize that there are many balls in the air as well.

1. Winamp Client needs a lot of checklist/requirement and licensing validation.
2. Winamp.com/Shoutcast.com need a core rewrite, database integration, social connection etc etc. (including likely, server(s) for redundancy, testing and production scaling.

3. A whole team of individuals for creation, maintenance and etc. for the web properties and affiliated sources.

I am all to familiar...hey, maybe on that note they'd like to adopt a developer (web - php, .net c# and app).

lol.

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Old 9th April 2014, 21:58   #251
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Just seen this article. http://www.lalettre.pro/Interview-ex...ian_a4260.html

Translated with Google it reads

Quote:
EXCLUSIVE: Our Newsletter Pro Radio met Alexander Saboundjian creator radionomy. The leader has announced the launch of a new version of Shoucast in June but also an evolution of the famous Winamp player (the tool itself generates 9% of the U.S. radio audience) and also experience a new version in December.
So a new Shoutcast website by June and a new version of winamp by December I think that's a reasonable timetable...



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Old 10th April 2014, 03:26   #252
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Nice!

Nice!
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Old 10th April 2014, 03:40   #253
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.. So a new website by June and a new version of winamp by December I think that's a reasonable timetable...
This is the sort of info that should be published somewhere officially by Radionomy, not translated by a user in a post within a thread..
This is what garetjax & aminifu (and me at the beginning) were referring to..

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Old 10th April 2014, 07:46   #254
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well that's news to me on such specific timings...
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Old 10th April 2014, 09:24   #255
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Originally Posted by garetjax View Post
I'd rather they fix, update and repair problems that have been just that since AOL Assumed the reins and added all the craptastic features they did.
I'm not trying to have Winamp be the only player for all of my digital media content, but I kinda like the additions I do use.

Maybe we're not using the same features. There are glitches here and there requiring work-arounds, but could you list 2 or 3 features that you think are crap.

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Old 11th April 2014, 03:15   #256
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I'd rather not as it tends to inflame many and starts up shyte....as stated I know that those that code for Winamp and are intimately familiar with its call stack, cripple ware, and call momma features to which are some of the items I speak to and are likely aware of the specifics.

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Old 11th April 2014, 08:19   #257
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I'd rather not as it tends to inflame many and starts up shyte...
Ok, you could PM me. If you rather not, I understand.

I think I can guess some of the call stack issues. As to cripple ware, I have no idea unless you mean things provided by Gracenote and Sonic and afaik all call home stuff can be disabled. The only time I see Winamp going online is when I have asked it to.

Anyway since the devs know of which you speak I trust them to make 'good' decisions going forward (when they're allowed to). Better still, I trust that you will get on their 'case', if they don't.

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Old 11th April 2014, 09:19   #258
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well I'd appreciate some clarification on what's meant by what's not being said...
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Old 11th April 2014, 15:58   #259
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Here is some stuffing for my message before:

1. With regards to Audio Output - 5.1 Speaker Configuration - Optical Line Out - Audacity - Winamp will crash with anything other than the lowest possible setting. (Problematic, in my testing the default settings for anything above 16bit Stereo audio playback cause load issues, performance degradation and/or app crashes...usually a combination).

2. On 64Bit PC's, Tablet (Surface) the Client buffer under runs constantly on large playlist items, mixed audio (wma, mp3, ogg)...

3. Audio Codecs - Realtek/VIA HD Chipset still after years of problems (crash, CPU Cycling, Multi-Threading issues, Faults etc)

4. Significant bugs while switching from classic to bento to other modern skins. Refresh, problems occur when switching out skin engines.

5. Full AAC Playback support (where is it?)

6. Winamp 2.9x is twice the speed and yet a whole hell of a lot older (this is actually an issue; winamp 5.xx should be much faster, much more efficient and easier to run - nope).

I have more...but those are from the top of my memory and yes, they likely may be addressed with settings/configuration/plugins change to Winamp. Though, IMHO that really is a poor solution. A program crash after installation or opening is just that. Apple, Google, Microsoft and many other software solutions get crap for it...so, to should Winamp.

Additionally, publishing something to Android, IOS, etc without first stabilizing your primary product PC Winamp...just buggered the heck out of me...I understand completely that not everything can be 'addressed' as with any development effort there will be to many variables with client architecture/drivers etc to be able to solve them all. However, to many of the basic features are problematic. To many of the codec implementations have problems and the skin engine...my god (really?); Back in the day a 2.5MB Memory utilization for graphics rendering was an issue and should still be an issue. Yes, I understand I have 16GB of memory. It doesn't matter how much memory or if the memory management of Windows is piss poor. Winamp is better than that...and can be; Utilize the minimal amount of memory and cycle out what you don't want; a 300K Zipped Skin Package extracted to 796K should not take 1.2MB....never?

But, I digress these are my thoughts and my opinions. I am not trying to start a flame war, not trying to get any hackles up...but, I am showcasing reasons why I have both Winamp 5.66X and Winamp 2.9X on the same machine (I prefer 2.9)...and use the other to test skins; honestly I hate running 5.X; to many problems for me to even want to use it.

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Old 11th April 2014, 16:34   #260
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#1 - if things are crashing, then i'd need to see crash reports to try to determine and fix. and with this one, is that the output you're doing and grabbing via line-in or am i just not following what you've posted?

#2 - i find that hard to believe and would need more specifics to even attempt to replicate.

#3 - what has that got to do with Winamp? we can only use what the OS provides and driver issues are just that (as i think is what you're trying to refer to, though i suspect i'm misunderstanding that point as well).

#4 - examples, etc please.

#5 - what aspects are missing? as we have AAC playback and it should be as complete as per what the Fraunhofer libraries provide us to do.

#6 - what specific areas are you referring to as not being fast enough? as modern skins are inherently slower (though should be faster to load with 5.65/5.66x compared to earlier 5.x releases) when compared to a 2.x / classic skin setup (and when you factor in the additional aspects like the library and all of that, it's doing a pretty good job i think compared to a 2.x install). sure there's probably things that can be done to speed up loading times for example, but you're then compromising features and other fixes vs working on loading time.


and obviously any crash reports / problems need to be confirmed against 5.666 build 3516 + dll patches.

[edit]
your edit was not present when i replied. all i'm trying to do is work out what is causing people to use 2.x or what it is with 5.x that specifically isn't right so we can try to target and resolve issues (which should have been done years ago, but that's just not how the business model / developer interest went i.e. other platforms and letting the desktop stagnate - though that is how things generally going anyway).

and with the case of bugs, without a way to replicate or a crash dump, things are harder to fix and i know that Winamp is not as stable as it should be, but comparing 5.63 to 5.66x (and once you rule out the in_mp3 crash), the number is massively down due to a load of extra work that was done mainly in my own time (as nothing beats 16-18hr days) in an effort to track down and reduce the number of crashes. yet there's still some that cannot be fixed without re-designs or clearer steps to determine the cause (as some seem to be from other things present on the machine which are injected into Winamp). and there's other areas which can be improved (like i've been tinkering with a few things to better cope with dll dependency issues - which is going to be needed for some of the feature changes) so that things will fail more gracefully without taking the whole process down.
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Old 11th April 2014, 17:01   #261
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I agree with you DrO and when I have a chance I will send you some error logs.

Fraunheifer AAC Playback is inherently limited at higher bitrate playback. The playback generally done cuts off much of the content due to over zealous content trimming for discreet playback.

WHereas, Ogg Vorbis - is a bit clearer and less jittered.

(my belief anyways)


[appended edit]

Don't get me wrong DrO; I think the work you are doing now...is resolving those things altogether and I'm happy for it. I believe, in the long run leading up to a 5.7 release will likely iron out a lot of mismanagement, misstep's and implementation problems. I am stating why 'I' run Winamp 2.9x instead of Winamp 5. Perception? Yea, I won't rule that out...but, perception of a product is as important as the feature. If you break that perceived notion it is as good as dead.

I love a lot of things about Winamp and will continue to. However, there are many other 'tailored' products out there that give me exactly what I need without the perceived/real issues with it.


[further add]
When you use a Winamp Modern Skin like S7 then switch to Big Bento and then to Classic; there are artifacts of the previous/prior skin placement/boundaries that cause the current skin to look problematic (without pressing F5 these are present; or the timer has a new initialize state thrown to load the skin anew).

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Last edited by garetjax; 11th April 2014 at 18:20.
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Old 11th April 2014, 18:19   #262
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on a related note, the following shows the 'slow' plug-ins to get through the init(..) stage of loading (which doesn't mean that's them completely loaded as most will do some async aspects to only load what is needed when it's needed) and is of a classic skin vs a modern skin (big bento in this specific case).

it's taken from my dev install (running in safe mode so none of my other plug-ins are loaded) and is just what i'm seeing (as mileage will vary depending on the drive type and OS being used) and as can be seen, the time taken does vary a bit e.g. the gen_ml time (which on another run took another 100ms to get through).

code:
Classic Skin Loading Modern Skin Loading
gen_ml.dll 417ms gen_ff.dll 774ms
ml_local.dll 142ms gen_ml.dll 338ms
ml_online.dll 49ms ml_local.dll 81ms
gen_jumpex.dll 47ms ml_online.dll 44ms
in_wm.dll 24ms gen_jumpex.dll 27ms
ml_wire.dll 19ms ml_devices.dll 26ms
ml_pmp.dll 10ms in_wm.dll 25ms
ml_downloads.dll 9ms ml_wire.dll 23ms
ml_nowplaying.dll 6ms ml_playlists.dll 14ms
in_midi.dll 4ms ml_pmp.dll 13ms
in_mod.dll 4ms ml_downloads.dll 10ms
ml_playlists.dll 4ms in_midi.dll 4ms
ml_webdev.dll 4ms in_mod.dll 4ms
wasabi2.w5s 3ms ml_bookmarks.dll 4ms
in_mp3.dll 3ms ml_webdev.dll 4ms
in_vorbis.dll 2ms wasabi2.w5s 3ms
ml_history.dll 2ms in_mp3.dll 3ms
ml_plg.dll 2ms gen_hotkeys.dll 3ms
gen_tray.dll 2ms ml_nowplaying.dll 3ms
jnetlib.w5s 1ms in_vorbis.dll 2ms
in_nsv.dll 1ms ml_plg.dll 2ms
out_disk.dll 1ms jnetlib.w5s 1ms
gen_hotkeys.dll 1ms in_nsv.dll 1ms
ml_devices.dll 1ms out_disk.dll 1ms
ml_bookmarks.dll 1ms gen_crasher.dll 1ms
ml_history.dll 1ms
ml_rg.dll 1ms



from what i've seen, if i get my dev install to have individual plug-ins load in under 10ms at this stage of loading (the closer to 0ms the better), it generally makes for a quick overall loading time of Winamp (especially when i go from my SSD to a spin disk of rust).

and it's clear to see that gen_ml, ml_local (which is adding to the gen_ml time) and gen_ff (if enabled - if not loading a modern skin it essentially doesn't register) are the clear slow points for this metric. which needs to be understood is to be expected considering everything that they do (more so with gen_ff and the whole loading of a skin).

there's still other things going on which can lead to Winamp being / seeming slow to load and with those 3 plug-ins, there's still room to improve them compared to what has already been done - the biggest issue is thus time and being able to profile and consistently ensure it will help and that it doesn't cause new issues (which lead to the need for one of the 5.66x builds).
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Old 11th April 2014, 18:30   #263
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Originally Posted by garetjax View Post
Don't get me wrong DrO; I think the work you are doing now...is resolving those things altogether and I'm happy for it. I believe, in the long run leading up to a 5.7 release will likely iron out a lot of mismanagement, misstep's and implementation problems. I am stating why 'I' run Winamp 2.9x instead of Winamp 5. Perception? Yea, I won't rule that out...but, perception of a product is as important as the feature. If you break that perceived notion it is as good as dead.

I love a lot of things about Winamp and will continue to. However, there are many other 'tailored' products out there that give me exactly what I need without the perceived/real issues with it.
it tried to be a jack of all trades and didn't make it, like Winamp is generally perceived as good for audio but not for video playback (even if it's better than it was, like you note, it's still got that perception of not being great). so we either need to fix things and re-educate or drop things which aren't right and focus on what we're good at. hence the devil's advocate stance i was making on video support - which won't be dropped (though i'm looking to make it easier to disable via the preferences for those who don't want it), but it's an area which we're not as good at as we should be if trying to be a media player (and not just an audio player) and is it thus something that should be focused on or leave it alone and let it go...? hence trying to get some sort of user feedback on things as if no one uses a feature, is there purpose in leaving it in there and so on.

and the next version won't be 5.7x, i can say that with certainty due to it being too associated with the Cloud betas, otherwise it probably would have been and it could be called bob or whatever really

Quote:
Originally Posted by garetjax View Post
When you use a Winamp Modern Skin like S7 then switch to Big Bento and then to Classic; there are artifacts of the previous/prior skin placement/boundaries that cause the current skin to look problematic (without pressing F5 these are present; or the timer has a new initialize state thrown to load the skin anew).
could do with a screenshot or something as i've not seen that sort of thing happen on any of my test setups.
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Old 11th April 2014, 18:30   #264
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imo, winamp loads plenty fast enough (I also use SSD) and I think time is better spent elsewhere.

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Old 11th April 2014, 18:34   #265
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personally it's not as fast as i'd like it to be (especially with respect to the library loading) as hitting 2-3sec to load at times becomes a hinderence when trying to quickly develop and testing things.

but from a general user view point it's not bad. and ideally i'd like to see at least against my setup a consistent ~1sec loading time (when using a classic skin) and anything more is a bonus i.e. the speed i see when gen_ml isn't present which then is effectively instant.

plus if something is quick to load and be responsive to user input (like all of the work that was done on Windows to ensure things respond within a maximum time), that is going to be seen as better but it's often a slow process to determine and work around / improve performance bottle-necks. which goes back to the points about perception of things i.e. if it's slow to load, you're going to negative to things under actual running even if they're quick due to that first loading experience.


and not that i've posted it, but there's still things which can be optimised for exit times (which also affects me when developing at times) as that is consistently ~2sec for me, but it needs to be closer to ~1sec as well, which will be better for general usage with quick system shutdowns, etc (though the ~2sec saving i got from the few months of tinkering last year seems to have reduced the number of reports of settings not saved on system exit with 5.66x which is good).
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Old 11th April 2014, 18:51   #266
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ahh...

So far, to me it looks like the Winamp "Queue Manager" Winamp Gen is causing most of the load. I pretty sure that you likely don't need to reserve space for Winamp Gen on load of a Winamp unless of course it is actually needed. Assigning cache is great and utilizing cached versions makes things run quicker in the longer run, they also make things take longer to load at the outset. You are far more the C++ Developer than I obviously. I do c# I don't quite work with the same stack as you do.

Though, I believe your load times of each are subjective of where you load them from (like you said). I think you are definitely, on the right track...ML load at the outset is likely a large portion of the problem.

I know that in the old days when winamp ran it ran first only with the main window open on initial load. Then afterwards you would open eq/pl and those would be saved positions after exit. That behavior is likely still prevalent however, I also believe that by default you load all that may be needed for a Modern Skin and all that may be needed for a classic skin; I think load on use or an appropriate user action.... may be better.

Again these things you know more intimately than I.

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Old 11th April 2014, 19:07   #267
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the jtfe plug-in (gen_jumpex.dll) i know can be improved especially with loading times but it needs Winamp api changes to aid it in what it needs to do.

since one massive optimisation would relate to how it essentially duplicates memory due to maintaining another copy of the current playlist so it can maintain the queue indication highlighting (which has to be present even if nothing is in its queue at the time). is just a pain i never managed to get the changes needed done in time for 5.66x as it can make a noticeable difference in memory usage (as well as loading time) for very large playlists, though every byte saved helps


and yes the timings are subjective, but when changing something gives a consistent drop across the different setups i generally test on then i have to assume that it's going to be reflective of what other users are going to see. is just that fun balancing act of updating / checking what's going on to save time and resources vs adding / fixing new features for the greater good.

either way, along with whatever has to change with Winamp, hopefully some discernible optimisations can be done so as to help with the perception of things (is just whether it'll be noticeable or not) and is why we purposefully didn't mention things for 5.66x so as not to prejudice people's viewpoint on load / save times.
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Old 11th April 2014, 19:19   #268
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see, this is kinda funny, b/c I would much rather save ram/memory than save a second here or there, meaning, I would rather the dev time be spent on reducing memory footprint and/or quashing bugs, improving the API, etc, than worrying about a second or two of loading time, b/c to me, its already plenty fast enough, ie. more than fast enough. but that just goes to show that each user is going to have their own perception of whats important, and all a dev can do is whatever they think best.

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Old 11th April 2014, 19:36   #269
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exactly. as load / save time is generally fine for the install i play from, but not for the dev install. and the less you have to allocate / process, the faster things will be so memory optimisation can help improve loading times, thus squashing two common complaints (too slow, too much memory).

same with smaller dll/exe vs code optimisations as yes the code might run faster but if it cannot fit in the relevant caches in a machine, it'll need more paging and thus be slower compared to a smaller block of code which is slower but doesn't have to be paged out. and a smaller dll/exe is going to be quicker to load on program startup as well, but then loading lots of smaller dll can take longer than loading one large dll/exe, so it's all a balancing act.


alas it's never going to be clear cut, unless something is directly allocating a massive buffer and it's found to not be needed, or like the jtfe playlist copy in my prior post which could save anything from a few KB (which is still a saving) to a few MB depending on the length and number of playlist entries. though what it saves generally pales in comparison to what is used with modern skins or large libraries, not that i've not wanting to save potentially a few more MB.


so when it comes to memory, there's a limit to what can be reduced and it's not like we're just using it for the sake of it as-is. yes 5.x (and later versions, typically 5.3x+) use more than a 2.x setup (and how much will vary depending on the OS, plug-ins, etc) but most of that stems from unicode support (double-byte vs single-byte, which could have been dealt with by translating to-from UTF-8 but that can be messy and slower) and by using native unicode functions on XP and up, we gain some performance back as most non-unicode functions are translated to unicode ones by the OS (if i'm remembering things correctly).

plus, it's often forgotten that as a user's library grows, it's going to use more memory, so over time, Winamp will be using more just from the act of being used. that is often forgotten when doing old 2.x to 5.x comparisons i've seen.


and bug fixes and API improvements, etc have their place in better / fixed implementations can save resources or do things faster (having to use more to achieve it at times). so it's all about providing a rounded development experience and what that imparts onto the software being created, so you cannot focus on one thing solely (though can for bits of time) to achieve faster, smaller, stabler software i.e. a better Winamp.
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Old 11th April 2014, 21:38   #270
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If only we could drop ML entirely...if only. That would save on load time, memory and other area's. or a rewrite/update of the ML Class(es) -there are quite a few I know; In either respect load time and memory usage are generally linked and intertwined in many cases. As DrO stated memory usage grows with usage of the app. As you load onto the app more that causes it to slow in response, you have to swap out more space of cache to essential functionality or grow it beyond the cache limits.

All speculative, but wouldn't it be fun to rewrite the ml functionality...thoughts abound about this idea. Though, I wouldn't be able to rewrite that mess. To many things going on with to many other connection(s).

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Old 11th April 2014, 21:41   #271
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you can always not install the ML if you don't want it
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Old 12th April 2014, 02:19   #272
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Not being able to skip back and forth is a problem with the WMV codec, and it only gets worse as you go up in quality. It has nothing to do with what player you use. Skipping IS possible on WMV, but it requires the player to reread the file from the beginning to figure out where to find the frames you're skipping to, and then it usually takes more time to get audio and video synced. It can be quickened by caching the whole file, but no sensible programmer would load gigabytes of video into memory just in case you wanted to fast forward. (Atleast the Vegas player does it that way, assume it's what causes real media players to have the same problem)

This is not an issue with any other video codec, on MPC or any other video player (can't speak for VLC though, since it's overhyped and terribly designed that I refuse to use.). H.264 encoded MP4s and MKV will skip instantly, even QT files don't have nearly as much skip lag. Atleast when the splitters are set up correctly.
You are right about WMV codec, Winamp will skip back and forth with FFDShow's WMV codecs though it's slow. But the point is that it's not about that but whether the player itself provides the option to skip back or forth. With Winamp it's a simple keystroke and most video files I use, e.g. MP4s and OGG do so with no problem at 5 second intervals. It's very convenient to have that ability. Windows Media Player and MPC don't so I don't use them.

WMP will go back or forward 20 seconds using the same keys as Winamp but you have to click the mouse pointer on the scroll bar to make it the focus and that can't be done in full screen. It's one of many features lacking in comparison to Winamp and is worthless to me for watching videos.
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Old 12th April 2014, 09:11   #273
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exactly. as load / save time is generally fine for the install i play from, but not for the dev install. and the less you have to allocate / process, the faster things will be so memory optimisation can help improve loading times, thus squashing two common complaints (too slow, too much memory).
My Winamp installation loads in less 3 seconds with the cPro skin, 12 3rd party plug-ins, and a 1200 item (or less) playlist (using a 'rust bucket' HD). I don't load the library at start-up. According to the Windows task manager, it exits in about 2 seconds. Since it disappears from the screen almost instantly, the perceived shutdown is also almost instant. These times seem reasonable to me and are faster than they were before the most recent optimizations. I assume the load/exit times would be even faster if I had a faster computer (and/or SSD). However, if the load/exit times of the native components can be made faster, all the better.

What is curious to me is that Winamp always takes nearly the same time to load each time after the initial load and exit. Other apps load faster after the initial load and exit (some almost instantly). I thought the OS (since XP) was keeping apps that are shutdown in memory (standby cache or somewhere) for a period of time (or the memory is needed for something else) in order for a reload to be faster. This does not seem to work with Winamp.

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Old 12th April 2014, 09:16   #274
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Here is some stuffing for my message before:
I'm also not seeing some of the things you listed (that I use). Maybe configuration reports of your installs will shed some light (along with the crash reports).

I don't understand why people don't like the media library feature (and it's default collection of smartviews). It could be improved with things like multi-column sorting and active tracking of what's playing, but overall it seems to be a worthwhile feature, imo.

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Old 12th April 2014, 10:23   #275
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My Winamp installation loads in less 3 seconds with the cPro skin, 12 3rd party plug-ins, and a 1200 item (or less) playlist (using a 'rust bucket' HD). I don't load the library at start-up. According to the Windows task manager, it exits in about 2 seconds. Since it disappears from the screen almost instantly, the perceived shutdown is also almost instant. These times seem reasonable to me and are faster than they were before the most recent optimizations. I assume the load/exit times would be even faster if I had a faster computer (and/or SSD). However, if the load/exit times of the native components can be made faster, all the better.
those times are reasonable, but could be better (it's more loading times which are the sticky point at the moment). and yes, running with a SSD would give an improvement, but how much is hard to say (possibly a second if i had to guess). obviously things then depend on the skin type and the library size, etc.

though with shutdown times, relying on task manager is a bit ropey as it doesn't update as fast as is needed i found during testing, with process monitoring being better for such things.

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What is curious to me is that Winamp always takes nearly the same time to load each time after the initial load and exit. Other apps load faster after the initial load and exit (some almost instantly). I thought the OS (since XP) was keeping apps that are shutdown in memory (standby cache or somewhere) for a period of time (or the memory is needed for something else) in order for a reload to be faster. This does not seem to work with Winamp.
it's more often related to shared dlls across the system and as we're generally self-contained, it's less likely to be something that we'd fall under. though how and what the OS does with respect to caching changes between OS versions and so is simpler to focus on what the program can do rather than hoping the OS will keep enough of things around to speed up loading, etc.
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Old 12th April 2014, 14:03   #276
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When you talked about security issues on 2.95 version I immediately thought . Why don't you people made like an update to stop those issues. There are lots of people who don't want to have all the stuff of the 5 version. What people said about you can uninstall this and that on 5 and put it like 2,9. But I dont want 5 i want 2.9 . And again another thing I must say to that guy who has winamp on WINE. Linux is for running LINUX software not to run windows software. I never had WINE. When people switch to Linux they switch and thats it. Running windows software on Linux that is a way to have serious security problems. Having said that each one does what he wants with his software. You know why I love Linux? All is free and when I looked at Winamp there was always that talk of license $$$ money etc.. annoyinggggggggggg LOng Live Free Linux forever.
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Old 12th April 2014, 15:35   #277
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When you talked about security issues on 2.95 version I immediately thought . Why don't you people made like an update to stop those issues. There are lots of people who don't want to have all the stuff of the 5 version. What people said about you can uninstall this and that on 5 and put it like 2,9. But I dont want 5 i want 2.9 . And again another thing I must say to that guy who has winamp on WINE. Linux is for running LINUX software not to run windows software. I never had WINE. When people switch to Linux they switch and thats it. Running windows software on Linux that is a way to have serious security problems. Having said that each one does what he wants with his software. You know why I love Linux? All is free and when I looked at Winamp there was always that talk of license $$$ money etc.. annoyinggggggggggg LOng Live Free Linux forever.
What security problems?

I've never had a problem running windows software espcially winamp under wine on Linux. I still have to run virtualbox in Linux to get some of the software I need use to work. Still not been hacked!

There are no security issues as far as i can see......



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Old 12th April 2014, 18:03   #278
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What security problems?
http://help.winamp.com/customer/port...ersion-history

Search the page for "security" and then for "vulnerability".

See all of the results for in_mp3, in_midi, in_mod, in_cdda, m3u,
most of which all existed in v2.9x


I still can't understand why anyone would want to use 2.95 instead of 5.666.
See screenshot. What's the difference?
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Old 12th April 2014, 18:54   #279
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In that case 2.91 is now gone from my system never to return. I've actually not used it that much so i doubt I'll bother again, got a winamp clone (qmmp) working on Linux now. i may try winamp again when all the AOL crap has been shifted out of the new versions of the program.



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Old 12th April 2014, 18:55   #280
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In that case 2.91 is now gone from my system never to return. I've actually not used it that much so i doubt I'll bother again, got a winamp clone (qmmp) working on Linux now. i may try winamp again when all the AOL crap has been shifted out of the new versions of the program.
It already has been, in 5.666
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