Old 28th January 2011, 18:59   #281
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^ Score 1 for both of you!
For you and BB to read

Yeah, that smart!
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Old 29th January 2011, 05:26   #282
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There's a person in my dad's neighborhood that has a husky...Really beautiful dog, and just really mellow; He lets it outside year round, and it just sits in that damn chair on the side of the house all day, just sitting and watching the cars drive by, the people walk past...Really cool, but it must have taken some training to get it to be that way; Either that, or it's just old...

That's the kind of dog I would want...That, or a tamaskan, only because they look like wolves, without the inadvertent instinct to treat me like wild prey...

"I just want to lie in my own crusty filth, eating rancid egg sandwiches, until some unfortunate paramedic has to blow down my door to find my bloated and pasty corpse wedged between the nightstand and mattress stained with Bengay and Robitussin DM." - Greg Gutfeld on sex and seniors
"Syphilis does not stay in Vegas. Debt collectors do not stay in Vegas. Dead hookers stay in Vegas, but the guilt stays with you forever." - Bill Schultz
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Old 29th January 2011, 09:35   #283
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I had two Malamutes at different times. Full sisters....looked like Great with kids, sweet in the house...bad with dogs they were not ordinarily around(and they were very socialized) But they have to be leashed and watched in public. But they are not like German Shepherds(which I had had as a child) They(Malamutes) listen ...in their way.
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Old 3rd February 2011, 09:19   #284
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You must sing "Little Bunny Foo Foo" to all your attack dogs

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Bunny_Foo_Foo

You should play and "scoop up the field mice and bonk em on the head". "Down came the Good Fairy and she said......"

Like kids... canines like silly....
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Old 3rd February 2011, 10:27   #285
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oh!
Nuts! I was singing the wrong silly song.
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Old 3rd February 2011, 15:07   #286
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The dog above is a "Woo". "Woo"'s have their own songs....
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Old 3rd February 2011, 18:34   #287
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Like "How much is that wolfie in the window"? And "Is she cute wearing her grey and fury suit?"(There are more lyrics to my made up song, but I'm to embarrassed to post 'em)....
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Old 3rd February 2011, 18:43   #288
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I'm not that much of a dog lover but even this made me shake my head.

http://www.theprovince.com/technolog...568/story.html

SEX APPEAL UP IN HERE!
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Old 3rd February 2011, 20:22   #289
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^ Fucking dirt bag-bastard piece of shit.
Story from another source http://www.examiner.com/humanist-in-...als-mass-grave
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Old 3rd February 2011, 22:52   #290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Widdykats View Post
Like "How much is that wolfie in the window"? And "Is she cute wearing her grey and fury suit?"(There are more lyrics to my made up song, but I'm to embarrassed to post 'em)....
WOO would you do if I WOOed out of tune? WOO... you stand up and WOO out of me... Lend me you ear and I'll WOO you a song and I'll try not to WOO out of key.....


OH! I get by with a little help from my WOO.
I get high with a little help from my WOO...



I don't want to consider sled dogs buried in a mass grave.
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Old 3rd February 2011, 23:57   #291
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Old 5th February 2011, 08:20   #292
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I wonder if that's photoshop. A guy could handle the weight, but I don't think I ever met a dog gentle enough to get up there without scratching a guy up bad.

I can just imagine what would happen to your head, if SQUIRREL!
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Old 5th February 2011, 18:58   #293
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You're probably right; the connection point at the shoulder looks a lil shooped, but I'd be willing to bet a good border collie (they're very trainable) could do that without too too much training.

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Old 5th February 2011, 23:16   #294
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I'll bet you could train BB to do that. I don't think I'd like to be the test subject for early trials
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Old 13th February 2011, 14:31   #295
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Grrrrrrrr.....

I hate stupidity. So, to make this all make sence for posting it here, there is a bit of a story involved.

A few months ago I put my house up for sale because we are getting ready to leave dodge. As luck would have it, things moved faster than we had planned, we got an offer really quick, and, if all goes well, will probably close in March. Yea! We have to keep our current jobs until July. Whelp, time to pack everything into a pod except for what we need and find an apartment.

Okay. A pet friendly apartment seeing as how we have three. Easy enough.

Do you know that next to no one in southeast michigan allows pits. Do you know that all dogs welcome really means "no rotweilers, pitbulls, chows, or dobermans". Jehebus people! Don't you realize that it is the person that makes the dog bad and that the dog is not intrinsically evil! Chirst, do in interview with my pit; put him in a room with other dogs, cats, kids, adults, goats, what ever and see whom he runs to first to viciously like their face off.

And that is not all ...

In July we are moving to Canada for a year. Toronto actually. Guess which province has a ban on pits? Yep. Ontario. Repeat argument above and replace with Ontario as needed.

I hate to say it, but I am not about to give up my dog because people are idiots!
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Old 13th February 2011, 17:02   #296
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I mostly agree with you. I agree that your pit is not a threat, because I trust that you know your dog probably better than the dog knows him/herself. I agree that your dog is probably great in any environment. What I don't agree with completely is the "person makes the dog bad" argument. I agree that this is a huge factor, but if a pitbull were the offspring of two highly-trained-to-be-violent parents with violent pedigree each, there is always a chance that instinct can take over in a confrontation, even if you raised the dog in a peaceful environment. This is a sad truth, but what is also likely true is that your dog doesn't have quite the blood that I am describing. You would likely know by now if it did. In your dog's case, it's likely that there are a few generations of peace between the original attack breeding and your dog.

You are indeed justified in questioning the fairness of laws/policies/rules that stereotype all members of a group when indeed they are individuals with differing attributes. I have seen (on TV at least) professionals that can run behavior/temperament tests on pets to see whether or not they are fit to live in a given environment. I don't know if you have access to those sorts of people or if their reports could help you, but I just thought I'd include that just in case it could help you. One such test might be making the dog hungry by not feeding for a slightly extended period, then when it is fed, seeing how it reacts to someone that attempts to take the food away. Most dogs will look pissed and growl or will whine, but won't attempt to harm the person threatening to take their food. A dog that will attack may be questionable, especially if they attack violently just while protecting a toy instead of food.

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Old 13th February 2011, 17:14   #297
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By the way, that post reminds me of an image I made of my brother's pets. If the two dogs hear the cat hiss, they will run to it and will growl and stare down (and sometimes give the "last warning" growl-bark combo at) the person that makes the cat hiss. Rather odd if you ask me. They have no issue with that person once he/she backs off. They have chow in their blood, and might be dangerous for small children, but I have yet to see or hear about them harming anyone yet.


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Old 13th February 2011, 17:53   #298
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That's horrible, fc*uk. great picture , ted. Hey, paint 'em black and white and say they are mutts...mostly boxers or something like American Staffordshire Terrier http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/americanstaffordshire.htm believable. OH. Monday and Tuesday Night
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Old 16th February 2011, 22:55   #299
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Ted, I generally respect both your opinions and thoughts. However, I could not disagree with you more about some dogs are born with it. You are a teacher, do you believe some kids are simply born bad? I don't.

See behavior, both human and canine, is a learned trait. Sure, a child growing up in a drug/war torn ghetto is likely to have some issues as an adult due to the experiences the person went through when younger. Dogs are the same way except they have been bred for thousands of years with one thing in mind: make my human happy. In both cases, they can also be taught to change.

I can't believe I of all people are going to go here, but this is actually a fundamental religious argument that no one is born into sin and evil. The book would have you believe the debil causes people to do bad things, but really it is experiences of the said individual. Anyway, like dogs, no human is born bad. And I've had enough of that seeing as how I am not religious at all.

Widdy, yes it is. I have actually had him genetically tested because just about everyone who has met him thinks he is either an American staffordshire terrier or a boxer. Unfortunately, when faced with that most apartments around here quickly say those breeds are banned too or any breed resembling a bull breed is banned. Luckily, we were able to find literally about 4 places that did not care about breed or would at least say boxers were allowed.

Unfortunately, Canada (Ontario) is not so forgiving. They clearly state any bull breed dog or any dog resembling a bull breed dog. Ontario's laws are also a little more absurd in that they (animal control) has the authority and ability to euthanize the dog on the spot. Gotta love kill first and ask questions later. Even more sad, is they actually have been known to do this. What's worse is some are grandfathered in, but have to be muzzled in public (which we both [me and the dog] could live with for a year).

There was recently a good bully dog named Ginger who was actually attacked by another dog in public, Ginger's muzzle became dislodged, and Ginger acted in self defense. Long story short, Ginger was euthanized as a result.

I've actually met this dog (long story) and it is not a meanie. This story above is simply sad and has come to be due to the ignorance of people and the fears played upon by governments and the media.

Quote:
The legislature has decided, however -- as it is entitled to do -- that pit bulls are inherently dangerous animals that pose a risk to public safety by their very presence in public places
I think people texting while driving or talking on their cellphone while driving pose a risk to public safety by their very presence [while driving] in public places. Can I go kill them all now? I think [insert human race here] are dangerous, can I go kill all of them? Seems like a few people have tried to do that throughout history; I'm pretty sure they want down as bad folks.
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Old 16th February 2011, 23:34   #300
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^ What are you going to do? That's all awful. I'm sorry.
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Old 16th February 2011, 23:55   #301
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The comparison (dogs vs humans) isn't very valid due to the fact that humans aren't bread for many centuries by a separate entity to have a certain temperament. Dogs have instincts that are a result of breeding; instincts that really are measurable and observable. This isn't a matter of good and evil, it's a matter of measurable adrenaline and instinctive response to stimuli, even when existing within a carefully executed experiment.

To prove this, there is a study that is going on in Alaska, a study that is older than the state itself, originally started by either Russians or Soviets (can't remember all the details) with the silver fox. I have seen a video documentary on this, and they said that in as few as 8-10 generations (which for fox, goes by pretty quickly), there was a clear difference in temperament and levels of aggressiveness from those bred selectively with aggressive parents vs. those bred with tame parents. The ones bred for tame temperament can be sold as safe pets while those bred for aggressiveness could never make a good pet for someone who doesn't make very careful accommodations for living with a wild animal.

http://en.wikipedia******wiki/Domesticated_silver_fox

edit...

ffs... censored. Just search Wikipedia for domesticated silver fox.

/edit

You should look at that link, but it doesn't quite explain as well as the documentary to which I referred. What is better is that I noticed the references and external links at the bottom of that Wikipedia page were a lot better. The experiment is very interesting to read about, and it gives a lot of insight to how wild wolves likely became domestic dogs.

You are bringing up a nature vs. nurture argument, and any time that happens, science almost always proves that both are significant contributing factors. Sadly this is also true for humans in many studies too (I haven't seen any on this same type of temperament, but I have for many other factors - not by race but by comparing other factors - I don't buy into Jensen's research that goes by race since there are too many more recent studies to disprove his findings; but other valid human mental predictions can be scientifically made based on characteristics of the parents, and these are not yet disproved).

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Old 17th February 2011, 00:20   #302
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Widdy, we are not quite sure what we are going to end up doing. Right now the leading idea is similar to what you first suggested; I want to get him a jumbo poodle costume and just tell everyone he is a poodle. In reality, we will wait to see the results of a genetic test and see how much of a leg we have to stand on.

Ted, I've not looked at your link, but I assure you I will. However, from what you just wrote, I see your point and I agree --- at least with respect to the fox study in Alaska. You also have a point about the comparison between humans and dogs with respect to breeding temperaments. However ...

Are you suggesting that a sect of, in this case, bull breeds exist that have been bred with the temperament of killing after all these years? Personally, I find that hard to believe (or at least would hope). I would also surmise that any visious instinct these bull breed dogs had as long since been bred out of them after hundreds and hundreds of generations.

I guess a recent argument to my statement(s) above would be Vick's dogs. As far as I know all of them (maybe all but two) have been what we would call rehabilitated. Surely, though possibly isolated, those dogs don't fit the aggression was in them because it has not been bred out mold. However, I would also guess your defacto arguing point to that is how do I know that for sure. After which my only defense would be touché. I guess the same could also be applied to the foxes and to a breed of dogs after thousands of years.

I dunno. Maybe I just don't like what you said because I feel it borders too much on a parallel of some people are inherently evil sort of statement.
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Old 17th February 2011, 00:29   #303
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Another reference worth looking into would be Weiss et. al (2000), research that shows that personality traits are very well linked to hereditary factors and not very well attached to environmental changes. I can't seem to find fulltext of the study, but this link refers to it. There are many other articles that demonstrate a clear link to genetics and personality too.

more to come, I posted before seeing your reply

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Old 17th February 2011, 00:30   #304
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There is a very famous episode of The Odd Couple, where Felix steals a Collie he feels is being mistreated and puts a cardboard beagle face on him. I thought of you. I think some dogs have herding instincts(Borders, etc) some are good at protecting Property(my friends Mastiffs(they are not mean or vicious) My Mals wouldn't have cared if you stole everything in the house(just don't put your hands on me). But every dog should be judged, as to their specific personality. Because NOTHING is 100 per cent. Nothing,(Except me giving it up after a few drinks) What?
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Old 17th February 2011, 00:39   #305
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I think what's important here is that yes, you do need to look at the individual while considering the group, not just looking at the group alone. Your dog likely has a few generations of separation from the breeding/training for aggression, and because of that, perhaps it should be allowed to be trusted.

The other thing to consider is that dogs of "dangerous" breeds are often only seriously dangerous when both loose and together with others that can join in on an attack. Dogs, in general, take on the temperament and actions of whichever they see as the lead dog, and therefore become very dangerous if a lead dog attacks with buddies nearby. Your dog is usually alone and under your supervision, plus your dog probably looks to you as a "lead dog" and will naturally follow your lead if you have established yourself as a pack leader of sorts. That gives a good degree of safety too.

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Old 17th February 2011, 07:45   #306
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........................Click image for larger version

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I'm a psychosomatic sister running around without a leash.
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Old 17th February 2011, 09:13   #307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swingdjted View Post
Your dog likely has a few generations of separation from the breeding/training for aggression
I was bred for something like that. Dogs? They are the biggest sweethearts. Even Staffordshire Terriers. It's a good stout dog. Treated right, it would probably be the least likely to take a chunk out of you. If it did, it would be fear. If that were the case, you really fucked up training.

Pit bulls, handled by kind people, are sturdy, intelligent and pretty calm. Don't cross one, but hell, you'd likely have to try. If it's dangerous, it has a dumb ass for a master. Mostly another happy pooch ..... likes hugs.... goodies.... play....

I think breed banning is idiotic. On the other hand, I wish people were better. I think you'd be pretty proud to have a good "Pit". Damn fine dog.... properly tended....

I don't think they psychologically bred a particularly aggressive pooch. I think they just bred a sturdy dog. To screw that up..... people....

Last edited by rockouthippie; 17th February 2011 at 11:33.
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Old 17th February 2011, 11:50   #308
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^ fc*uk, your answer is at 2:55
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Old 18th February 2011, 01:01   #309
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lol widdy!

I'll take two!
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Old 19th February 2011, 03:57   #310
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I agree with both of you guys. Dog breeds do develop specific traits of aggression through their evolution, but I also feel that the level of aggression of any dog whose breed has been tagged as "dangerous" will be more greatly affected by their own experiences than by anything in their genetics.

Rottweilers are my favorite breed, for instance. I've known many a Rott, and all of them were big teddy bears. But they also tend to be fiercely loyal, and will readily give their lives to protect their human family. If they are brought up in a positive, non-aggressive environment, then they will never "accidently" show aggression towards anyone who doesn't very clearly have it coming to them. I.e., they would not attack an unfamiliar child, for instance. You show me any domestic dog who is actually dangerous, and I'll show you a dog that has either suffered a history of abuse, or has grown up feral and simply doesn't know any better.

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Old 19th February 2011, 05:33   #311
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See that's the problem. Sometimes a child does "clearly have it coming to them" (in the dog's mind), because they throw dirt balls or something (let's face it, some kids are just stupid sometimes), and while other dogs will bite and then quit when the child runs, some dogs that were born with those more aggressive instincts will kill, just because they think they have to do it to protect themselves and their territory. That's where the problem comes in - some people get dogs that are too close to the breeding/training for aggressiveness toward threats, and although they're incredibly peaceful over a thousand days in a row, something could cause that instinct to come out. Would I be sorry for a kid who got his ass bit if he deserved it? No. But, would I be sorry if he got killed? Yeah, probably.

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Old 19th February 2011, 06:45   #312
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I am so important I feel the need to let it be known like a liberal discovering the internets for the first time. Uh hur hur hur. I also wash myself with a rag on a stick.
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Old 19th February 2011, 06:47   #313
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Old 19th February 2011, 07:14   #314
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Holy fat pooch, Batman! That has to be a Photoshopped image. Just compare the size of the paws to the head.

Regarding the previous discussion...

All very good points, Ted. When I mentioned a case of someone "having it coming to them", I mean only the clearly extreme examples of this, such as a raging adult attacking the dog's owner with a baseball bat. A well-trained dog of any breed will walk (or run) away from kids throwing dirt clods at it. Unless they corner it, that is, in which case natural selection would - and should - prevail.

I still believe, though, that "nurture" overcomes "nature" in dogs, just as it does in people. No animal - including humans - have a "perfect" decision-making record, of course, but rather than euthanize a dog that has bitten someone - except in cases where serious injury or death is caused - I'd prefer that the owner of the dog be punished just as if they had committed the assault themselves. After all, if environment does overcome genetic influences, then the owner is quite directly the one to blame for their dog's harmful actions.

The owner may not have had the dog since it was a puppy, but they should still incur all legal responsibility for the dog's actions, just as they would if they adopt a child. This is already the case to some extent, but I would have the laws addressing dog ownership even more closely mirror the legal responsibilities a parent has for their child. If your kid beats up the neighbor's kid three times in a row, he isn't put to death for it as a dog would be.

This would have a good side and a bad side, though. It would make people more careful about researching a dog's background before taking it home with them. It would also bolster the importance of training the dog - something that far too few large-breed dog owners do. This would serve to lessen the frequency of dog attacks on people. But the additional legal responsibilities would also result in fewer dogs being adopted from shelters overall because of a fear of prosecution if a dog commits an act of aggression.

I just feel that euthanasia is used too liberally against dog breeds that have a stigma - earned or otherwise - of aggression.

I'm a psychosomatic sister running around without a leash.
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Old 19th February 2011, 10:42   #315
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The Saving Of Michael Vick's Dogs Some could be saved and rehabilitated. Bless these people.
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Old 19th February 2011, 18:02   #316
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It would really take a patient, careful person willing to put a lot of rehab time to "fix what's been broken" within a dog's lifetime. It's often said, you can take the animal out of the wild, but you can't take the wild out of the animal. It's also often said, you can't teach an old dog new tricks. While those statements are not 100% true, they go to show that making changes from a dog's previous upbringing could be very difficult. You have to be careful to only walk it when you have a good, strong hold on the leash, you have to constantly retrain it to react more positively to stimuli that originally made it attack, and you have to teach it to socialize in a whole new way. Even when you see success in this, you still have to keep a third eye on it, just in case.

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Old 19th February 2011, 20:10   #317
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but you can't take the wild out of the animal.
Dogs aren't wild. That's why we don't call them wolves. We, in fact, did take the wild out of the animal.

72 million canines kill 3 dozen people. Most of the deaths are from Rottweilers. Compare that to more than 300 million people that "human homicide" 16,000 of each other. "Slip and fall" accidents kill about 16,000 too.

What is really bad is that kids and old folks usually get bitten in the face. It's usually their own pet.

With fatalities, it's much more likely for your parents to kill you or put you in the hospital than your dog. Or you could just fall down.

Comparing animal attacks as a reason for emergency room visits..... Car accidents cause a lot more injuries than dogs. So does falling down. "Slip and fall" is the leading cause of injury visits to the emergency room. It's also the leading cause of death by trauma.

This isn't the only example of legislation driven by media hype. It's a good one though. Maybe we should ban walking. Tripping over your own fat feet or smashing up your car is more likely to put you in the hospital than dogs.

Some days, I think the interminable "do gooders" in this country that can't mind their own business will be the death of us. They can't seem to grasp the fact that whatever you do, life isn't safe. It wouldn't be any fun if it was.

The last dog bite I heard of that required hospital attention was this dumb ass 19 year old kid who owned a 140lb Siberian Husky. He got bit bad on the hand. Not surprisingly, he was always slapping the dog around and play got too rough one day.

He taught his own dog to bite him.

Last edited by rockouthippie; 19th February 2011 at 22:10.
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Old 20th February 2011, 23:03   #318
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I know this derails a bit, but like I said, shoot first, ask later.
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Old 21st February 2011, 01:15   #319
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oy... See that's why I'm not a cop. Those kinds of decisions would be tough. There was no right answer in that scenario.

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Old 21st February 2011, 04:25   #320
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I saw the cops here use a tazer on a dog that they couldn't round up who was terrorizing people. The dog rolled out of the tazer and ran off, but his temperment toward people on the street was highly improved. Poor dog.
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