Old 27th August 2010, 11:57   #1
Phat
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Math and Programs you might be interested in.

http://plus.maths.org/issue53/features/hallucinations/

^That I found to be really intriguing. It's like not only did Turing invent the concept of the modern computer, but he also created math on paper that is remarkably similar to programmed shaders.

http://www.contextfreeart.org/mediaw.../Download_page

^^Context free. Very nice tool. Could easily be used to generate content for milkdrop textures. Here's some code me and Eo.S. (and a friend) have written for it... http://www.contextfreeart.org/gallery/view.php?id=2065


http://structuresynth.sourceforge.net/
^Structure Synth is like a 3d version of this. The syntax is slightly different, but it's generally more of the same with a new dimension.

Here's a piece of code for that program to start off with and or remix...

#define HA 1.2262415695892090741876149601471
#define HB 0.12262415695892090741876149601471
#define TILESIZE 0.9
#define YOFFSET 3.4641012081519749420331123133873

set maxdepth 1000
r3
shape2astart

rule hexO {
{ x 1.0 s HB HA HB } box
{ rz 60 x 1.0 s HB HA HB } box
{ rz 120 x 1.0 s HB HA HB } box
{ rz 180 x 1.0 s HB HA HB } box
{ rz 240 x 1.0 s HB HA HB } box
{ rz 300 x 1.0 s HB HA HB } box
}

rule hexS {
{ x 0.45 s HA HA HB } box
{ rz 60 x 0.45 s HA HA HB } box
{ rz 120 x 0.45 s HA HA HB } box
{ rz 180 x 0.45 s HA HA HB } box
{ rz 240 x 0.45 s HA HA HB } box
{ rz 300 x 0.45 s HA HA HB } box
}

rule start md 20{
{hue 560}hexO
{rx 120 ry 120 rz 120 h -0.2}start
}

rule shape1{
{s 0.4 hue 540}hexS
{x 1 rx 10 s 0.9}shape1
}

rule shape1{
{s 0.9 hue 545}hexS
{x 3 rx 10 s 0.9}shape1
}

rule shape2 md 20{
{}shape1
{ry 40 x 3 s 0.9}shape2
}

rule shape2 md 20{
{}shape1
{ry 60 x 1 s 0.9}shape2
}

rule shape2a md 10{
{hue 530}hexS
{x 15 ry 1 rz 240 y 2 s 1.2 h 2.5}shape2a
{x 15 ry 1 rz 240 s 0.2 z 1 h 10}shape2a
}

rule shape2astart{
{s 0.3 x -7 y 11}shape2a
}

rule r1{
{hue 560}hexO
{hue 560 y 2 x 2 s 0.3}hexS
{rx 120 ry 120 s 0.92}r1
}

rule r1 w 0.1{
{hue 560 y 3 s 0.5}cyl
{hue 560 y 2 x 2 s 0.3}hexS
{rx 120 ry 120 s 0.92}r1
}

rule cyl maxdepth 10 {
{}hexS
{y 1 ry 60 b 0.9} cyl
}

rule cyl maxdepth 10 {
{}hexO
{y 1 ry 60 b 0.9} cyl
}

rule r2{
{}r1
{x 1 y 1.5 s 0.9 rz 10 rx 10 z 0.1 h -0.9}r2
}

rule r2{
{}r1
{x -1 y 1.5 s 0.99 ry 10 z 0.1 h -1.3}r2
}

rule r2{
{}r1
{x 2 y 1.5 s 0.9 rz 10 rx 10 z 0.1 h -0.9}r2
}

rule r2 w 0.1{
{}r1
{}shape2
{x -2 y 1.5 s 0.99 ry 10 z 0.1 h -1.3}r2
}

rule r2{
{}r1
{x -2 y 1.5 s 0.99 ry 10 z 0.1 h -1.3}r2
}

rule r3{
{}r2
{hue 560 y 2 x 2 s 0.3 z 1}hexS
{x 1 rx 20 ry 20 s 0.8}r3
}

rule r3{
{}r2
{s 2 y 3 z 3}start
{s 1 y 3 z 3}start
{hue 560 y 2 x 2 s 0.7}hexS
{hue 560 y 4 x 4 s 0.45 b 0.5}hexS
{x 1 rx 10 s 0.8}r3
}

Anyway. As for me and Eo.S. we're doing well. Still making artwork and programming, working in video games. (We have our own studio) Here's a batch of prints I just got done recently that are going into stores on Monday...

http://www.eos4life.com/printFiles/

Random illustration work...
http://www.eos4life.com/Stoic_Tribal.jpg

and here's some recent tracks
http://www.eos4life.com/Antikythera.mp3
http://www.eos4life.com/Space_Man_27.mp3
http://www.eos4life.com/TheMechanic_42.mp3


Just in case anyone was wondering, we're doing great.
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Old 27th August 2010, 12:08   #2
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Also, this is the inside of my skull.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6uj5uvtzH0
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Old 27th August 2010, 14:36   #3
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http://vimeo.com/13886600

^Also mandelbulb is awesome.
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Old 28th August 2010, 15:57   #4
Flexi
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Two years ago I met Aexion on deviantArt. He built the 3D fractal renderer Incendia. Maybe you like it.

http://www.rfractals.net/gallery/mai...lding.jpg.html

addendum:
check out http://softology.com.au/ too

Last edited by Flexi; 28th August 2010 at 18:45.
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Old 30th August 2010, 02:48   #5
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Thanks!
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Old 30th August 2010, 18:04   #6
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Hi Phat

Good to see you around ! It's been ages, and this forum has been a deserted place at times.

I happened to visit eos4life only recently, to see whether this is a livelier place, and already discovered the photographic artwork. Amazing. I had also hoped to find a few new progressive hardcore tracks but no luck :-)
Have not gone through your math links, but that mandelbulb video is truly fascinating. I guess it takes days or weeks to calculate such a trip through 3D fractals. I tried out the static version Incendia - thanks Flexi - which is quite addictive, but still takes half an hour on my machine to come up with a nicely rendered image.

Best

Martin
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Old 31st August 2010, 01:08   #7
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Yeah, we've been writing less music currently. We've been programming on a video game for some people where we used to live near, and developing one for ourselves as well.

Yeah Eo.S. is the only person that writes progressive hardcore, the next project we're working on we're writing the music first though... I defiantly see us writing quite a few of those tracks for that project.
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Old 17th September 2010, 21:33   #8
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Mandelbulb

I've been struggling to implement mandelbulb shapes in milkdrop, and found it is actually possible.
Slow, though, and not nearly as shiny and 3D as the images found on the Internet, but - not too bad. You cannot expect a journey through Mandelspace in realtime of course, but it IS possible to slowly blend over between individual scenes with a reasonable 3D appearance, without taking recourse to pre-rendered images. I am quite excited about that; will publish a preset soon. Here's a preview.
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Old 18th September 2010, 18:27   #9
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god damn double posted for some reason

ayahuasca chupacabra

Last edited by yhscchpcbr; 18th September 2010 at 18:29. Reason: double poast-it knots in hell
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Old 18th September 2010, 18:28   #10
yhscchpcbr
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plastids and nucleo-atidal dumbranes

i love bib993's channel on youtube, but you've probably been there and done that like everything else. amazing that you are trying this, i was wishing someone would try it. i mean, you guys have been using complex numbers for shader fractals, i didn't see why you couldn't do the higher dimensional complex numbers or whatever they're called for mandelbulbs.

anyway, i'm sure it'll be very cool, mr cynic engineer. you fucking rock my anus so hard. i love you so tender / terror. hinies and ginies forever.

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Old 21st September 2010, 13:15   #11
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Nice man. That sounds like it will be awesome. Yeah, currently my computer set up is a bit slow for mandelbulb, same with some of my panoramas... but I've got some real time 3d stuff I've been programming that has been fun, so I'm happy currently.

I can't wait to see some mandelbulb in milkdrop presets!
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Old 21st September 2010, 21:03   #12
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Thanks all for the encouragement. I've seen bib993's and similar videos, that is just totally fascinating. What a pity it does not work in realtime but needs days to render.

Don't want to promise too much but I think I can soon present a milkdrop preset which allows you to edit and create your own mandelbulb journey and -images. Not quite like these videos, but it should be possible to very slowly move through the scene, at largely reduced resolution, then stop at interesting locations and wait for the full resolution to develop. Not much of a preset, rather a mandelbulb designer.

Over the past days I have worked on the image quality, trying to overcome the 8bit per colour resolution and the grainy appearance, and found a dirty trick to speed up rendering. Still got some work to do to facilitate navigation around the bulb. Should continue with the preset but got somewhat roped into staring at the images as they evolve.

Attached an image made with the last version. It took 20 seconds to develop to full res.
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Old 26th September 2010, 00:14   #13
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It looks unique, can't wait to see the preset.
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Old 27th September 2010, 18:00   #14
Flexi
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@Nitorami: Oh that looks promising! It would be cool if you can write some documentation on overcoming the limitations then - are they applicable on 2D Mandelbrot fractals too? I mean an iteration depth of 40 is not very deep. I have something like this on my mind:

(http://www.youtube.com/user/nebula32)

I have moved lately and i don't have Internet at home for the next weeks - which is kind of thwarting me. Actually I'm playing around with the GlGraphics library for Processing. It features an easy-to-use API for OpenGL shaders. On the other side i am just learning the OpenGL basics. So far i have a most basic Milkdrop-like grid implementation with a Navier-Stokes 2D fluid simulation - no shader usage, only GL texture displacement and it's fairly slow. At the moment I'm stuck with GL Vertex buffers (hacking the library without online documentation).
And keep your fingers crossed for me: I have handed in my diploma thesis and In two weeks I should have graduated.
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Old 28th September 2010, 10:20   #15
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Eo.S. just created a system in XNA for creating fonts from scans I had done for an app we're working on. Trying to make a True Type font in Unicode in a few languages (one font 5+ language sets) becomes this tedious entity. It's just a texture look up from sketchbook scans, so now we can have real time shader effects on the font I've been designing.

When we where traveling abroad in multi-lingual countries I saw some fonts that where recognizably the same font, and now I'm just getting OCD about drawing all glyphs in common use.

We also created a visual system that I'm hoping we can release somehow for free once the app has been released. I know you guys would love it.
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Old 28th September 2010, 12:15   #16
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Have you heard of GML? It's an XML-based format "for archiving gestural graffiti motion data" and there is already one renderer for it that is taking advantage of Shader technology: GML Viscosity. I didn't look deeper into it yet, but from Pixelnerve there's also an OpenCL integration and another shader library for Processing.
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Old 28th September 2010, 16:00   #17
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Yeah, I've used it before. A friend that was in this graff krew in North America I used to be in made one of the setups. I messed around with it for a while once. It's pretty good, although it seemed limited in a few ways compared to pens or cans. Mostly that you can't pick the pen up from the surface, so you have to have to come up with something that's a continuous line.

It's very cool though.
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Old 28th September 2010, 21:06   #18
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@Flexi : As to the video, that should be fairly easy to implement - uv distortions in the warp shader - before the mandelbrot code I assume - , similar to those you used in the comp shader for your ball bearing or similar complex plane based distortions, including mirroring effects, horizontal and vertical movement, zoom changes, and change of colour scheme. I don't think that requires extreme zoom, hence an iteration depth of 40 should be more than enough.
While this can't be compared like for like, in my Mandelbulb experiments I use an iteration depth of 7 only, which is adequate for zoom steps up to approximately 100. Not overwhelming, but there's a lot to discover at low zoom steps, and the basic patterns just repeat at extreme zoom anyway.

Good luck for your diploma - can't go wrong anyway, right ?

Martin
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Old 29th September 2010, 12:54   #19
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I've implemented 2d Mandelbrot realtime in Rendermonkey, and on the GeForce Go 7950GTX in our Dell XPS m1710 it can pull 90fps, at 900x750 with 80 iterations.
However, it's based on some Mandelbrot code in assembly I pulled from a paper [I'll have to track it back down], and as far as I know Milkdrop 2 doesn't let you code shaders in assembly.
The code is one of those rare cases where the compiler actually can not beat you for optimization. I tried implementing the same math in HLSL and it ended up something like 30ALU per iteration, whereas this straight assembly code is 8ALU per iteration.

Also the vertex shader was used for setup of the coordinates used in the Mandelbrot, and for extra trippiness and crazy warping I shift the coordinates used in the Mandelbrot between iterations.

That said, even in HLSL without vertex shader setup I still think you could get 40 iterations @ 60fps 1024x768 on a recent high powered GPU.
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Old 29th September 2010, 13:13   #20
Flexi
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@Martin:
I still have to defend the paper, and it will not be an A. thank you!

The overall geometry distortion of the Mandelbrot fractal looks "easy" to reproduce with MD. But there are some rapid zoom-ins into the Mandelbrot-like fractal that go much deeper than possible with a depth of 40. At least my graphics card is not the limiting factor there since it still runs at 60fps in full HD. A higher shader model would be cool . But say you have a distortion with a tunnel zoom like 1/d or flattened log(d), that repeats itself, then you can do unlimited "zoom-ins" without exploding calculation. [OCD]...Twist them with a complex polynomial.. *hypertorusfantasies*[/OCD] i wish bdrv would be still active here.

@Phat:
polynomials is the right keyword for GML or smooth lines in general - i mean B-Splines. For example the swinging spring in some of my Milkdrop presets is a Bezier curve based on a Bernstein polynomial of degree 6. At the time when i was creating it there were only 8 transitive variables - that's 4 two-dimensional controlpoints. My first attempt was one of a rank of 4, but the ends didnt look convincing, so the endpoints were taken as two control points for the rendering. Now with the array type in the MD language splines must be possible. For example for rendered lines or as camera paths in multiple dimensions. As far as i know Fonts are not differently specified but through splines, but Im sure you know that. ^^
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Old 29th September 2010, 14:12   #21
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Alias Sketchbook Pro has some logic in it that smooths out lines so you don't get weird artifacts from the interface, but I swear it's like one of the best things ever. There have been quite a few times where I have drawn a line, and known that my hand missed what I was intending ever so slightly.... only to look down and have the line I had envisioned. I have a suspicion it involves Bezier curves, but I don't know that for a fact.

I still use pens and paper for most of the illustration work I do with graffiti style fonts and designs for various technical reasons... but I really have to respect software that works that well that consistently. (It's also not crashed on us once.)
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Old 29th September 2010, 20:23   #22
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@Eo.S.: Cool. Never thought about programming shaders in assembler, but it sounds obvious, although as you say the compiler is QUITE good. I would probably struggle to beat it with my limited programming skills. Simple 2D Mandelbrot is running at 23 fps in 1280x1024 on my not-quite-up-to-date GeForce 7600GT, in plain HLSL.

@Flexi: Not sure whether this video really does zooms in so far, but anyway... be warned that the number of iterations per frame is not the only limitation in MD; the other is the precision of the float format. I tried to overcome this by declaring all vars as double, but that does not help; I assume that the uv space is float2 in the first place so it does not matter however you increase precision in your code, it will always be restricted to float, and limit the usable zoom to approximately 10000.
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Old 2nd October 2010, 16:14   #23
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i have noticed some precision issues on my 9500/9600 Radeons but not on the HD series so far. And the old 9x00 are too slow an limited anyway.

one more good video for explanation on the distortion mentioned above:

in fact i have written the mobius presets after watching this video.

I guess you can save some calculation for the Mandelbrot fractal by using the Horner scheme and expanding some usual iteration steps to a single one.
I have grabbed some books on numerics for natural splines and bezier splines. First results will come soon i hope
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Old 7th October 2010, 21:00   #24
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Thank you Flexi. I will consider the Horner scheme for my Mandelbulb calculations although I feel that the number of iterations is not too important, actually I am working with an iteration depth of 7 only. The problem is when you go 3D you need an efficient algorithm to avoid having to calculate all points in the x,y,z space which would take ages. Some estimation/imterpolation is definitely required, and with the number of iterations this becomes more and more inefficient because the structures get "rougher" and cannot be reasonably interpolated.

I put the Mandelbulb to one side for the moment and focused on the Mandelbox. Got the algorithm working in principle to provide reasonably sharp pictures, and it's amazing. I never thought it was possible to travel through a 3D fractal in realtime, without weeks of rendering time. Got a bit stuck though with the rotation matrices and don't know how to have the preset manoever through the maze without running into the walls all the time. Hope to get that sorted soon.
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Old 9th October 2010, 03:37   #25
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http://i.imgur.com/4qWrp.png

Heh.
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Old 9th October 2010, 19:38   #26
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Preview in 3D stereo. You need red-green glasses to see it.
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Old 9th October 2010, 22:12   #27
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so cool

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Old 10th October 2010, 04:41   #28
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sweet
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Old 3rd November 2010, 20:07   #29
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Mandelbox

Finally, as promised. Turn on some slow spacy tune (star trek, yeah), and enter the mandelbox maze, equipped only with your trusted torch. Enjoy.

Martin

Tech issues for those who are interested -:
- Honours to Tom Lowe, who, according to wikipedia, devised the algorithm only this year.
- The image quality does not match the shiny metal pictures found on the Internet, but hey, it is running in realtime, albeit slow. It does not require weeks of render time.
- Plus, there is no need to design a path through the maze. After many attempts to script a path through the fractal, avoiding blocks and walls, I got totally pissed off with that and decided to devise a bot which does the job. It's not perfect, but guaranteed to guide you along a new way on each restart. It can reasonably avoid walls and take you successfully through narrow structures, but may sometimes get caught in long boring corridors. Sorry.
- Iteration depth is 8. The multiplication factor is 2.6. Zoom is constant; no zoom to buggery is possible in realtime. While iteration depth and zoom could easily be increased by factor 3 or so without performance penalties, I found it is better to use very low values.
- It is of course not feasible to calculate the whole x,y,z-space in realtime. The trick is to reduce the space to a plane as the fractal evolves. I had to sacrifice the green and the blue channel for that, to store the z variable. Z resolution is 8192, more than a single 8-bit colour channel can hold. The core of the algorithm is quite simple but requires a lot of optimisation and fine tuning.
- The preset is not overly consuming GPU resources. It should ideally run at > 30fps. Below 25 fps, speed will be reduced in order not to destroy the resolution. Above 25, both speed and image quality benefit.
- I hope to make a 3D red-green stereo version soon (at the cost of halved x-resolution)
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File Type: milk martin - mandelbox explorer v1.milk (18.0 KB, 444 views)
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Old 3rd November 2010, 23:45   #30
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Ok, here is the 3D stereo version of that. You'll need red-green or red-blue glasses with it.
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Old 4th November 2010, 01:22   #31
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Fractal descent at its best! what an unbelievable structure...
I have no idea how you did it.

But let me tell you, my Java/GL tool is growing too. I still have to find out about how to use multiple input textures for shader programs and then write a preset handling logic and a built-in editor. But the main shader feedback loop is ready, and a 2-pass blur shader runs fine too. I will keep you up-to-date.
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Old 4th November 2010, 04:23   #32
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very awesome and can't wait and thanks

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Old 5th November 2010, 05:21   #33
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Quite unusual and beautiful, I enjoy the decaying industrial feeling. Yet, it doesn't quite seem to be a fractal, as the iterative forms aren't obvious. I suppose it would be too demanding for the processor.
One type of 3d fractal that is seldom seen is the normal mandelbrot, with iteration bands defining height. I have seen amazing stiils but not yet a convincing animation.
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Old 11th November 2010, 05:10   #34
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Simply Stunning!

Amazing work there. Great stuff with the camera too.

I haven't been around for a while. First off not a computer for a couple of years that could do the shader stuff so I lost interest for a while together with other visualization products I am doing and general work and life stuff gettign in the way.

Anyway after starring at this preset for hours it even me the inspiration to look at MD again. I felt it could have more movement for a visualization so a basic change as a mix of this so it flows through the fractal at speed to the bass.
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File Type: milk martin - mandelbox explorer v1 (Bass Movement Mix).milk (18.0 KB, 454 views)

"Rules are for the guidance of wisemen and the obedience of fools"

Visuals - Morphyre www.Morphyre.com
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Old 11th November 2010, 20:30   #35
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Hi Rovastar
Thank you - but honestly I cannot see a difference, it seems you defined a variable mybass in the frames section but never used it You may have sent the wrong file ?

I agree about the movement, for a preset it is very slow and will only fit very specific music styles. I experimented with a flashing torch and background but it all looked stupid, spoilt the atmosphere and got on my nerves quickly... the red glow was the maximum I could tolerate.

Please consider that the preset needs to calculate a fractal structure in 3D which requires several thousand times the effort than for a flat Mandelbrot structure. Movement is possible only because the preset does not calculate the whole x,y,z-space but approximates the visible surface and then reduces the calculation to this surface, which reduces the calculation effort considerably. Still, no frantic flight through the structure is possible while maintaining a reasonable image quality.
I am still working to increase the linear and rotational speed by movement compensation but there is a limit to it. I think a factor two or three can be achieved while maintaining image quality. We'll see.

BTW the algorithm should be good for ANY 3D fractal. The restriction is it should not be too solid, so there remains an open path through it, but on the other hand not too finely structured because this makes the surface approximation difficult. Any proposals ?
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Old 11th November 2010, 21:54   #36
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Doh! you are right the wrong version i missed of:

per_frame_8=speed = mybass*( stuff )

*Sigh*

Here is the proper version.

Yeah I understand the concept behind it...even though I don't understand it all yet. Mine blurs the images and moves through a speed and when the bass is no more it reforms the 3Dfractal in a new location. For not busy music it moves slowly through it. Anyway just a simple change.

It is not really there yet and I need to tweak the parameters to get a good balance for different types of music but the idea is there.
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File Type: milk martin - mandelbox explorer v1 (Bass Movement Mix).milk (18.0 KB, 437 views)

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Old 12th November 2010, 09:27   #37
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@Martin, I was thinking of an optical flow compensation too.

A proposal for another fractal: How about some basic easy ones, like a Sphere flake or a sierpinski pyramid/cantor sponge?
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Old 12th November 2010, 11:31   #38
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I've been looking more carefuly at the mandelbox preset and some new forms revealed, quite interesting. No doubt a pioneering work. From the few mandelbulbs renders I've seen, I'm particularly fascinated by the ones ressembling corals.
I've been testing your suggestion, but the still images are not very detailed and rather flat, I'll post them soon. I hope one day to see here a mandelbrot landscape, with lakes and rivers, and a creature lurking in the big lake, not a fancy dragon, just a plain loch ness one.
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Old 12th November 2010, 20:37   #39
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@Rovastar - yes, I see what yo mean. There are two problems, a) the algorithm cannot really handle fast movements, and b) at high speed it is likely to end up inside a wall or structure. Normally the init code first searches for a free space, then (at normal speed), then the frame code tries to manoever around walls and structures. But I think I'll have a version for higher speed soon.

@Flexi: Yes, that's very interesting and in fact I thought of something similar. Luckily I don't need to estimate motion flow from the image but can (probably) do a best guess based on the existing movement vector. Don't know yet how far that will get me.

@Amandio: Well I thought it should be possible to create mandelbrot mountains using shapes, with a similar code as used for - forgot the name - surface turbulence preset. Problem might be to get the shapes into the right orders and paint the ones in the background first....
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Old 12th November 2010, 23:29   #40
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Sweet, I just figured out how to show some of my videos outside of facebook. Hopefully it works.

This is some newish stuff we've made for house parties in the last few years. Nothing major, the music is mine as well, the first link I wrote the lyrics and hired the girls that sing the song (little woo and nadzo) as well. The girl in the first video comes from http://www.artificeclothing.com/em/s...s/updates2.asp a fetish clothing label... she was just so nicely isolated and spun around so well.

http://www.facebook.com/v/1376144485659
http://www.facebook.com/v/1218332940469
http://www.facebook.com/v/1146246298348

The last video comes from when we where documenting a room a good friend Xavi created for Temple Nightclub in San Fran by taking HDR Spherical panoramas.

Yes mandelbulb is hella cool. We might look into messing around with the Mandelbulb stuff in Milkdrop as well. Maybe Eo.S. could see if she can't make it render faster. We're pretty busy programming games now though.
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