Old 30th August 2007, 11:03   #1
glop
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ml_ipod and ipod firmware ?

Hi

For the next releases it'll be great to upgrade ipod firmware by the way of mlipod (instead of itunes)
It's """just""" neeed the adress location where to download "and install" it..

but that's the way to finaly avoid itunes ^^
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Old 1st September 2007, 06:11   #2
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This has been asked before, and it probably won't ever happen. Even if ml_iPod could download the firmware updates, it still doesn't know how to handle the .ipsw files containing the updated firmware.

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Old 27th September 2007, 07:28   #3
Akdor 1154
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Apparently the ipsw files are just zip files. (according to http://www.ipodwizard.net/wiki/index.php/Removing_Changes).

iPod Wizard has the capability to update firmware, and it's open source - problem is they seem to be stuck at 1.2 in the SF repository. However have a look, it might be fruitful.
http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=153441

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Old 27th September 2007, 18:00   #4
abu
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Actually, after having some looks at the current pmp_ipod release, I get the impression that ml_ipod won't live very much longer. pmp_ipod is catching up very fast now, in some areas it's much better than ml_ipod (cover art display, transfer queue...).

Only two points that keep me from switching immediately: Smart Playlists (well, this is actually the killer), and audiobook support.

If we all cry out loud at Will, maybe he'll add that in one of the next releases. Then we can get rid of ml_ipod, and hopefully have a more stable system.

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Old 27th September 2007, 18:33   #5
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Yeah, Smart Playlists and Audiobooks are why I'm using ml_ipod.

Do you know if Podcasts get put into the Podcasts menu on the ipod with pmp_ipod, like they do with ml_ipod? I wouldn't want to give that feature up, either.
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Old 27th September 2007, 22:08   #6
glop
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are you kidding ?
the ml_ipod i LOVE it cause you can make a "send to ...hard drive" this IS the most MOST important point of view about mlipod

please abu don't give up ml_ipod ! come on !
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Old 28th September 2007, 00:11   #7
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I'm inclined to agree - I would prefer to see some of the new pmp_ipod features added to ml_ipod than to be forced to used Nullsoft's closed-source plugin.

Furthermore I would really miss the functionality of just being able to drag a file/folder into the ml_ipod view and have it transferred, without the data required to be in the ML.

Keep up the good work Abu!

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Old 28th September 2007, 02:15   #8
fatcerberus1
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Exactly. pmp_ipod (well, ml_pmp as a whole, actually) is closed source. ml_iPod is open, and that alone makes it superior in my eyes.

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Old 28th September 2007, 06:30   #9
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Big hit home for me with ml_iPod-

I just love the fact that I can think of ideas to improve the iPod all the time and come here to get them implemented.

I feel as though Will has a more closed mind on the idea of iPod's on Winamp. It appears his goal is to port over iTunes/iPod functionality to Winamp/iPod functionality. I have always wanted to not only clone the functionality from iTunes but also improve upon it greatly.

Frankly , the iPod is not customizable AT ALL! Everyone's iPod is the freakin same and its dumb how limited it is. ml_iPod gives me an outlet for customizability on the iPod and allows me to create a much more efficient portable music playing machine.

So, did Winamp decide to put a whole staff on improving ml_pmp? How come ml_pmp is gaining so much momentum on ml_iPod. My only guess is greater manpower....
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Old 28th September 2007, 08:34   #10
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I'll use whichever plugin first gets album art fully working with my classic (including the silly right pane stuff!).
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Old 28th September 2007, 23:48   #11
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The only reason I use Winamp is for ml_iPod. Can ml_pimp convert Replaygain to Soundcheck. If all the changes are for the new Winamp, than that leaves all those using WinME out. If we lose ml-iPod, I'll switch to Foobar.
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Old 29th September 2007, 19:52   #12
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Well, you'll never loose it, but maybe no further development. You can always stick with what you already have.
BTW: The new Winamp 5.5 won't run on WinME any more!

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Old 29th September 2007, 23:33   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by abu
BTW: The new Winamp 5.5 won't run on WinME any more!
I think that was his point. The new features of ml_pmp will only be available to users of WA 5.5 and up (therefore excluding 9x/Me users); ml_iPod's current minimum requirement is WA 5.0, which is supported all the way back to Win98.

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Old 30th September 2007, 12:36   #14
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and going against the end of Bilbo9955's post, ironically foobar doesn't run on WinME either not without using one of the massively old versions which i don't think foo_pod ever worked with anyway

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Old 30th September 2007, 15:33   #15
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@ Dr. O

I just upgraded to XP myself, but know that many people still use ME. I was speaking for them.
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Old 30th September 2007, 17:49   #16
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i don't disagree that it's annoying for those who can only use the older legacy OSes but really it's gotten to the stage where you can only expect to have newer software working on newer/NT based OSes just for the better api support which making things easier for the developer to do and so inturn for the end-user. software can only do so much before you end up with crippled/mixed versions to deal with win9x and NT based system usage which just becomes more hassle than it's worth.

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Old 1st October 2007, 08:15   #17
Akdor 1154
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+1 for open software. The iPod platform is horribly closed and the more open documentation and specification available - and updated - the better.

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Old 1st October 2007, 19:06   #18
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The point is that ml_iPod is doing an excellent job using the WinME compatible of Winamp. Therefore, it will still be viable even if ml_pmp start to catch up with it.
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Old 1st October 2007, 20:28   #19
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If there are really some Win98/ME guys out there who need a capable iPod management tool, maybe one of them wants to step in and help with development of ml_iPod? I would be happy if someone dedicated some time and took the lead here...
Actuelly, catching up with new iPod models on the one side, and with incompatible new Winamp versions on the other side, is kind of frustrating over the last couple of months.

Every new Winamp build has different incompatibilities, so stuff that used to work with ml_iPod suddenly stops to work - without any change in ml_iPod. Sad story.

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Old 5th October 2007, 08:27   #20
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Quote:
pmp_ipod is catching up very fast now, in some areas it's much better than ml_ipod (cover art display, transfer queue...).
Actually this is probably handled by ml_pmp since its the same for all portables (?) ... if ml_ipod was reworked into say pmp_mlipod the pmp integration stuff would be free right?
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Old 5th October 2007, 09:08   #21
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Basically yes. But that what pmp_ipod is all about. Will did ml_ipod first, and then he saw that it is no longer maintainable. He was hired by Nullsoft to do it better, and that's what he does now. It wouldn't make sense to make ml_ipod a pmp_* plugin.

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Old 5th October 2007, 14:52   #22
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The trouble with ml_pmp isn't so much a flaw in its design as an inherent shortcoming of its architecture. Because it's designed to be extensible to work for any player you can think of, any pmp_* plugin, as it matures, is likely to suffer from being overly generic. When you're compiling against a generalized API, it's a lot harder to implement specialized features.

Example: it would likely be difficult to properly implement podcast transfer in pmp_ipod ("properly" as in podcasts go into the Podcasts menu), since that would require support from the underlying architecture (i.e. ml_pmp). And since iPod is the only major DAP that treats podcasts as a special case, it wouldn't really make sense to special-case them in the general-purpose ml_pmp.

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Old 5th October 2007, 15:02   #23
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I disagree. It would make perfect sense to provide such an API in ml_pmp, because iPods are the major player. All other devices simply wouldn't use that API... and all could be fine. BTW, I heard that pmp_ipod puts podcasts into the right place on the iPod. Haven't tried it myself, though.

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Old 5th October 2007, 17:57   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by abu
[...]and then he saw that it is no longer maintainable.
Isn't that being awfully fatalist? From my vantage point as an end-user and public beta-tester, I think ml_ipod has been maintained not only well, but fast. It certainly had no problem adapting to the itunesDB hashing and 320px album art changes.

Familiarity does breed contempt; maybe you're just not feeling the love for it anymore. That's totally fine. Because it's open source someone else can step forward and keep it going. Another tick in the positives column for having a FOSS ipod plugin.
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Old 5th October 2007, 19:50   #25
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Well, I think what really bothers me are the many incompatibilities on Winamp's side. It's ok if Apple creates a new iPod and it works differently. But it's really bad if Winamp breaks old APIs with every release. That's no fun.

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Old 5th October 2007, 20:35   #26
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i'll agree with that, having to do compatability updates for plugins for plugins with most of the winamp versions from 5.1x up is not fun and it kills the desire to work on things (i've got more than enough convo logs where there's me bitching about changes that were not really necessary or a more convoluted system was implemented which causes mass re-codes of things).

even with my position change with regards to winamp, i'm still in the same position (jtfe had to be updated due to changes in 5.36/5.5 which i didn't agree with having to do & which is part related to the ml_ipod playlists re-ordering issue). ml_* based plugins have been more susceptible to all of the changes since that is where most of the work and changes has been done with the whole redesign of the ml tree handling being just one more thing - i can only hope from what i've been led to believe that there shouldn't be any more such massive changes/potential breakages but i can't say for certain (i can only hope it's a while before any more breakages if they do happen)

Quote:
Because it's open source someone else can step forward and keep it going. Another tick in the positives column for having a FOSS ipod plugin.
there's one fatal flaw with that and that comes down to there being someone else to take things up. most advocates of OSS seem to be those who don't/aren't able to code rather than those who can which is a rather large disparity and is why a lot of OSS things never work from what i've seen.

from how i've seen ml_ipod develop since it's early days, it's become a large and convoluted project and i think Will was right in restarting things from scratch (it had been on the cards before the acquisition of his services for ml_pmp+pmp_* anyway since the original ml_ipod was really just a test type plugin to see if things worked rather than a properly designed system).

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Old 5th October 2007, 22:01   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by DrO
from how i've seen ml_ipod develop since it's early days, it's become a large and convoluted project and i think Will was right in restarting things from scratch (it had been on the cards before the acquisition of his services for ml_pmp+pmp_* anyway since the original ml_ipod was really just a test type plugin to see if things worked rather than a properly designed system).

-daz
Why, then, has pmp_ipod not kept up with ml_iPod? I'll admit it's catching up... but by all rights, it should have surpassed its predecessor by now.

There's one problem I have with the idea that "if the code is poorly-written and overly monolithic, it should be rewritten from the ground up."--such a design actually slows the developers down in most cases. If the code is messy, the devs will be less inclined to try to keep new code clean, and therefore be able to code much faster. Sure, there'll be a higher learning curve for new devs who have to decipher the code for the first time, but once you're familiar with it it's not really a big deal.

I'll be honest: I would actually be more inclined to work on a project with no particular code structure or conventions (e.g. ml_iPod) than I would one with highly structured code. There's just too many rules to slow you down in the latter.

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Old 6th October 2007, 00:01   #28
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Heh, this thread jumped the tracks a few days ago and is headed straight for programming philosophy town.

Suffice it to say, I'm glad ml_ipod exists. Without it I would not be using winamp with pmp_ipod, I'd probably be using MediaMonkey or (gasp!) iTunes.

This isn't meant to discourage Will from working on pmp_ipod, in fact, quite the opposite. I hope he finds buckets of time to port over all the ml_ features into pmp_.
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Old 6th October 2007, 02:29   #29
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Sorry. I'll try to stay on topic from now on.

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Old 6th October 2007, 11:47   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by fatcerberus1
Why, then, has pmp_ipod not kept up with ml_iPod? I'll admit it's catching up... but by all rights, it should have surpassed its predecessor by now.
because there's more than just pmp_ipod to take into consideration and also there's been a plan i believe on certain features going in to tie in with given release schedules/work commitments and all that stuff

Quote:
Originally posted by xamphear
I hope he finds buckets of time to port over all the ml_ features into pmp_.
i doubt that will ever be the case as typically all 3rd party plugins will have more things in them generally from a few user requests rather than a lower feature set that needs to be applicable for all. plus there's the whole thing of choice and there's nothing wrong with having different plugins to essentially do the same thing since one will do something better than the other or be better suited to one person over the use of another

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Old 6th October 2007, 15:36   #31
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Still it's hard to understand for me that a basic feature like smart playlists is still not available with ml_pmp. That would be the most helpful thing, even for non-iPod portables. And you don't even need any support from the device to do that (as long as you don't want live SPLs)

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Old 7th October 2007, 12:37   #32
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i wouldn't know why that's not been implemented (guess it's not viewed high enough to be scheduled for will to work on under the remit of his contract or something like that). but then again i don't like certain aspects of the ml_pmp architecture in the way it doesn't add files to at least usb devices in the order that you send them which messes up continuous album playback on my little ol' mp3 device.

it all i guess comes down to a compromise on time, resources and what they're willing to pay for which is undestandable as a corporately funded project (however frustrarting it may be to those around and users at times).

-daz
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Old 8th October 2007, 14:13   #33
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here we can see if our ipod is updated


http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=61688

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