Old 24th March 2003, 20:30   #41
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And Yay! for Poland
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...aq_poland_dc_2
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Old 24th March 2003, 20:31   #42
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And Yay for Australia as well
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...australia_iraq
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Old 24th March 2003, 20:39   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by Curi0us_George
1. I didn't say that you should follow us blindly.
the thing is, that's exactly what the thread was asking them to. if the price of "freedom" means giving up the right to decide for themselves, then what the fuck are they fighting for?

"you owe us" is a terrible argument to bring up in this matter.

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Old 24th March 2003, 21:29   #44
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yay, great, hurray my country is now officially a nation in war, we are contributing a destroyer, a submarine and a roll of dukttape to the coalition. GRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!! now we'll see terrorist flying into the cityhall tower of Copenhagen - now isnt that just going to be fun!?

me digs down until this war is over, my own goverment has betrayed me - i give up

argh not again, anyway - im ertmann|CPH in case you're wondering!
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Old 25th March 2003, 01:28   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by ertmann|CPH
no, im saying 18 like it is in most of europe imo is a better age for driving
Well, that's a personal disagreement. 16 year olds can drive as well as 18 year olds, though, I'm pretty sure.

Quote:
Allowing firearms for anything else than hunting is sick, and any country where you need a firearm for self protection is sick. I just can't see how that is a civil liberty
The right to bear arms is a civil liberty. (I should have stated that earlier.) It's one of our fundamental rights. I have every right to own a gun so that I can defend my home or myself. Guns allow me to protect against criminals, as well as against the government.

An armed populace cannot be oppressed. Why do you think oppressive governments always take guns away from their people? Liberal freaks who think guns kill people are encouraging the oppression of their own people.

Quote:
Actually, the same guy i talked to on that bar, later claimed that english was old fashioned and american was a evolution of the english language, that's why i remembered.
I suppose you could actually argue that point as being true. We have different spellings on many words, and different pronunciations on many others. Basil anyone? It could be argued that "American" is a new language derived of English.

Quote:
Originally posted by zootm
the thing is, that's exactly what the thread was asking them to. if the price of "freedom" means giving up the right to decide for themselves, then what the fuck are they fighting for?

"you owe us" is a terrible argument to bring up in this matter.
I never said that they should follow us blindly. I posted in the thread to clarify a different point.

For the freedom to express myself in my own way without fear of being censored or banned.

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Old 25th March 2003, 04:18   #46
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mr Jones
Did you miss the 50,000 or so British troops, sailors and flyers that are there?, apparently some one didn't...
You know what I mean. I know the British are supporting us. I ment the other countries like France and Germany. I don't mean they have to send in troops. It would be good if they just sent us supplies for the soldiers for the war. They don't have to fight.
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Old 25th March 2003, 04:39   #47
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You know what, you're all right. But there is one thing I have to say. "Those who do not remember history are condemned to repeat it."
http://forums.winamp.com/showthread....hreadid=129533
This is why we are going to war now.

Oh yeah, the US could have joined WWII anytime they wanted, but it was somewhat difficult since the world was going through a depression. They also sent the Allies about twice the amount of supplies then they did to Germany, because they were neutral, but knew they would have to enter the war sooner or later. I'm not saying, although it may have looked like it, that America is the all mighty God and everyone should support us.
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Old 25th March 2003, 04:41   #48
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BTW, how do u lock topics?
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Old 25th March 2003, 05:00   #49
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only mods can do that. just let it die, man.

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Old 25th March 2003, 07:47   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mr Jones
Did you miss the 50,000 or so British troops, sailors and flyers that are there?, apparently some one didn't...
The US army sure didn't miss the UK helicopters
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Old 25th March 2003, 09:33   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by Curi0us_George
I suppose you could actually argue that point as being true. We have different spellings on many words, and different pronunciations on many others. Basil anyone? It could be argued that "American" is a new language derived of English.
Come on that was just because the first American to write a dictionary was illiterate

Seriously one of the major reasons the US is not popular is because of its people, as the sterotypical American is arragant, says the whole world owes them, says they saved x during WW1 or WW2, says it did eveything by itself ie Vietnam War, Korean War etc. Now this sterotype is not nearly anywhere near the majority of Americans, however it always seems that people like this are the most vocal, and most people avoid them like the plauge.
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Old 25th March 2003, 11:24   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by Curi0us_George
The right to bear arms is a civil liberty. (I should have stated that earlier.) It's one of our fundamental rights. I have every right to own a gun so that I can defend my home or myself. Guns allow me to protect against criminals, as well as against the government.

An armed populace cannot be oppressed. Why do you think oppressive governments always take guns away from their people? Liberal freaks who think guns kill people are encouraging the oppression of their own people.
WHAT!? did you just say that, im shocked actually

Civlians having firearms are dangerous, may I remind you of the civil war in the former jugoslavia, somalia, rwanda, Afganistan and god knows where else, where civilians have used weapons to commit genocide, encouraged by he leader of their own ethnic group. The argument that it makes it impossible for the goverment to opres it's population are simply not vaild.

Futhermore the US and South africa, countries where guns are widely accesable to the civilian population, are if not the most violent in the world, then definantly in top 5, with most murders and violent crimes being commited per citizen
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Old 25th March 2003, 11:43   #53
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http://www.loga.org/GunPolicy.htm

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Between 1979 and 1998, 563 American military personnel were killed by hostile action. During that same period, 2,042 children under age 5 were killed by firearms, almost four times as many.

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Old 25th March 2003, 17:46   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by ertmann|CPH
WHAT!? did you just say that, im shocked actually
Yes. I said that. I believe that the right to bear arms is fundamental.

If you want to debate that, start a new thread. (Or just look up some old ones. I'm sure it's already been covered.) I'm not going to debate it here.

Honestly, though, you'd be wasting your time arguing about it with me. I consider the right to bear arms to be as important as the right to vote.

edit: I'll mention again, though. Oppressive regimes always take away weapons. Throughout history. It's not just a wild coincidence.

For the freedom to express myself in my own way without fear of being censored or banned.

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Old 25th March 2003, 22:38   #55
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And yes, according to our constitution, we have the utmost right to bear arms. Whether you think it's cool or not, a bunch of dudes got toghether and got us out of an oppressive government. (oh, it was less about taxes than you think, read the bill of rights, please). They decided we could have them, and thier descision stands.
France may owe us or not, I think they do, but whatever. What I think sucks is that the French have disliked us for eons, (and many of us don't like them), for whatever reason. Personally, I know people who've gone over there and have had thier tour busses leave them, Cafe owners get very rude to them, and people on the street ignore them when they ask for directions, in French no less.
And yet I know several people from France who love it here (for some reason) in New Jersey, the buildingest State in the Union. I think it's sad we can't get along, and I really don't know what it is.
The French helped us start our country. We wouldn't be waving our own flag if they hadn't bailed us out, at a low cost (lower than it should have been).
The French don't owe us. We've returned the favor of thier help in WW I & II. We're even as far as I'm concerned now. But if we could all just get the fuck along?

Edit: oh, and all your cuts on us for being stupid makes me angry. True, not many people no where Yugoslavia and Luxembourg are (I do, thanks for asking), but I think (hope) that they can spot France in at least two tries. I mean, it's SOOooo big. Almost the size of West Virginia.

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Old 25th March 2003, 22:49   #56
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well i guess it can be viewed as a liberty, i suppose all things unregulated by the goverment are liberties.... but christ it's a scary one, so happy i don't live in the states

I remember my dad comming home from a meeting in Washington, shocked, he'd rented a car, and on his way home late one night, he (for me naturally) stopped for a red light. A Police car stopped next to him, got him out of the car, and told him he was stupid for stopping for the red light, it might get him killed *DOGH*

And this other things that was big on the news, a danish woman went into a store in New York, and let her child sleep outside in the (sorry don't know the word) carrige?. The child was kidnaped and most american blamed her, saying doing that was asking for her child to get kidnapped..... SICK!

I might live in a country where we don't have as many civil liberties, where we pay more than half of what we earn in taxes, but atleast i live in a country that's safe.
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Old 25th March 2003, 23:15   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by ertmann|CPH
I remember my dad comming home from a meeting in Washington, shocked, he'd rented a car, and on his way home late one night, he (for me naturally) stopped for a red light. A Police car stopped next to him, got him out of the car, and told him he was stupid for stopping for the red light, it might get him killed *DOGH*


He was more than likely in the wrong end of the neighborhood and making a right-hand turn. You can make a right on red, and it's wise to do in bad areas.
Quote:

And this other things that was big on the news, a danish woman went into a store in New York, and let her child sleep outside in the (sorry don't know the word) carrige?. The child was kidnaped and most american blamed her, saying doing that was asking for her child to get kidnapped..... SICK!


You'd leave your kid outside in a store while you went grocery shopping? That is stupid. No matter where you are. Even my parents didn't do that to me.
Quote:

I might live in a country where we don't have as many civil liberties, where we pay more than half of what we earn in taxes, but atleast i live in a country that's safe.
Sounds like America. I certainly wonder what my government needs all that money for, and I still can't do many things, despite being 21. But if there is a place I'd be more comfortable and welcome, I'd move.

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Old 25th March 2003, 23:20   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fickle

You'd leave your kid outside in a store while you went grocery shopping? That is stupid. No matter where you are. Even my parents didn't do that to me.[/B]
Come to Copenhagen, you'll have a heart attack..... absolutely everyone does that, no im not kidding.

I've never heard of a child being kidnapped around here, ever!

I know I sound nationalistic and patriot, im just getting sick of americans doing the same thing..... There's realy not much difference between the way of life, and your liberties in America, South Korea, Western Europe, Japan, and to a lesser extend Singapore, Hong Kong and Taiwan - So don't make us look jelous.

Besides more related to this, maybe some people prefer spiritual life over money and liberties.... I don't, but i know muslims who does. And this is exactly what they are being sick of, americans comming telling them how they should live their lives, when they don't have a clue about how big a part of your life Islams is, and how much meaning it can bring into your life.

And no i'm not saying people should accept supression because of Islam, and I don't like Saddam one little bit, just accept people maybe don't want to live the american lifestyle.... I sure as hell don't, and im not even a muslim.

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Old 26th March 2003, 00:28   #59
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Leaving a child alone outside a store is negligence. That's just sick as far as I'm concerned. I'm not saying that if you do that you deserve to get your child kidnapped (because that's bad for the child), but I honestly have to say that I don't think you deserve to have a child at all.

There is some difference in the way of life. We are a much more indulgent society. (How many 18 year olds, or especially 16 year olds, get new cars as birthday presents in most other countries?) That's not what we think everyone should have, though. No one thinks that we need to bring new freedoms to European countries (except maybe Greece, but that's off-topic). We do think that everyone should have the right to live how they want. No one should have his lifestyle mandated by someone else.

For the freedom to express myself in my own way without fear of being censored or banned.

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Old 26th March 2003, 11:10   #60
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Leaving a kid outside a store might be negligence in America, and yes she was stupid for doing it in the united states, but she comes from a country, where it's totaly acceptable, cause nothing will happen, so she just didn't think.

CNN was running around on the highstreet in Copenhagen taking pictures of all the carriages with sleeping baby's outside the stores, and most of the people around here thought that was totaly weird, and everyone was Denmark was shocked about that incident, and how americans reacted. As far as i remember she was actualy found guilty of negligence, caused an uproar here, couse noone could comprehend it.

To the 2nd point.
Maybe some of us are happy with goverment control, i am. I don't want all the freedoms of the United States.

And 16/18 year olds don't get cars for their birthday, couse they are so heavily taxed over here - you can't find a new car in denmark for less than 17,500 USD.... if it was the same prices as in the united states, alot more would get one for their birthday, but it would mean excecive damage to the enviroment aswell, so we have made that choice ourselves.
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Old 26th March 2003, 11:26   #61
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Quote:
Originally posted by ertmann|CPH
well i guess it can be viewed as a liberty, i suppose all things unregulated by the goverment are liberties.... but christ it's a scary one, so happy i don't live in the states

I remember my dad comming home from a meeting in Washington, shocked, he'd rented a car, and on his way home late one night, he (for me naturally) stopped for a red light. A Police car stopped next to him, got him out of the car, and told him he was stupid for stopping for the red light, it might get him killed *DOGH*

And this other things that was big on the news, a danish woman went into a store in New York, and let her child sleep outside in the (sorry don't know the word) carrige?. The child was kidnaped and most american blamed her, saying doing that was asking for her child to get kidnapped..... SICK!

I might live in a country where we don't have as many civil liberties, where we pay more than half of what we earn in taxes, but atleast i live in a country that's safe.

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Old 28th March 2003, 00:03   #62
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1- I stress one important point already said here: The Eastern front had the main say in the the WWII and thus everybody primarily owes Russia and not the US.

2-"the thing is, that's exactly what the thread was asking them to. if the price of "freedom" means giving up the right to decide for themselves, then what the fuck are they fighting for?"

Excellent point zootm.

3- While you say France owes the US in the WWII, I would say the US owes Humanity, and forever: Hiroshima, Nagazaki?
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Old 28th March 2003, 00:55   #63
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Originally posted by Curi0us_George
No one thinks that we need to bring new freedoms to European countries (except maybe Greece, but that's off-topic). We do think that everyone should have the right to live how they want. No one should have his lifestyle mandated by someone else.
First of all, excuse me for the OT.

What exactly do you have to say against Greece?

I am Greek and I extremely upset from what I just read. I only signed-up to say so.

Could you please elaborate?
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Old 28th March 2003, 02:02   #64
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http://www.hrw.org/wr2k1/europe/greece.html
http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2002.nsf/eur/greece!Open

not that the United states are any better....

http://www.hrw.org/wr2k1/usa/index.html
http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2002.nsf/amr/usa!Open
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Old 2nd April 2003, 01:46   #65
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First of all, I want to apologize for not answering quickly, but I had to hand in a couple of essays to one of my professors at Uni.

OK, now I see what you meant.

Regarding the HRW report, I have to say a few things. First of all, I'm not sure that the eviction of the Roma is illegal. What I mean is that the place that they stayed was property of the Greek state, and therefore, evicting them in order to build sports facilities for the Olympics (or for any other reason that has to do with national interest), is not illegal. Still, the fact is that they were notified at a really short notice. On the other hand, I happen to know very well, that the Roma are responsible for a large part of Hashish trade in Greece. Moreover, most of the Roma families (that are more like clans, that is) lead different lives than us. They live pretty much like nomads, wandering around the country, selling things like carpets, plastic chairs and tables, fruits and vegetables. Almost everyone of them owns firearms illegally. Murders for love affairs or disagreements over business or “business” are really common, and often they turn into a Vendetta (sp?) between the clans. Five years ago (give or take a few) an underaged boy was killed by his uncle, because he wanted to punish the boy’s father (the murderer’s brother) for something, which, of course, was not publicly stated. When the case was at court, members of the two families caused episodes, even in the court room. Very few of them have ID cards, even less of them pay taxes, or have anything to do with the state. Most of them don’t even care to vote!
But of course, not all of them are like that: I used to have a neighbor and classmate back at school, whose father was a musician and they lived normally. They had no problems with the police or with the rest of “us” common people, whatsoever.
All in all, most Roma in Greece are at the "outskirts" of law, and it's their choice.

Regarding the religious minorities, unfortunately most of the things stated in the report are correct. The Orthodox Church was very close with the people even before Greece’s independence in 1830’s. Even during the Othoman Empire possession, the priests and monks helped educate the people and keep the Greek spirit alive for almost 400 years. As a result, many people (especially aged over 40) are very sensitive (to put it softly) with their religious beliefs, and overreact when someone tries to convert them.
To be more specific, most Greeks mainly dislike Jehovah’s witnesses, because they try to convert them in a very aggressive manner. I remember a couple of years after my grandfather died, my and my mother went to the cemetery, which is situated about 500 meters from my summerhouse, at my village. Both my mother and I were wearing black clothes. When we were returning home, a car stopped a couple of meters from us, and a lady got off starting to speak about God, and trying to sell us a magazine (which was the official magazine of the Jehovah Witnesses here in Greece, called "KSYPNA" = “Wake Up”). That’s what I mean by saying “aggressive manner”: You see a woman and a child returning from a cemetery, wearing black clothes, and you try to convert ???? You are waiting for someone to be weak for a moment, and then you “strike”???? I don’t think that these tactics are ethical!

Regarding Muslims, the main population of Muslims is situated at Thrace, the North-east territory of Greece. I find it hard to believe that the Muslims have problems practicing their right to choose and follow a religion, since they are accepted from the Christian part of the people. I mean, there are Muslim members of the parliament, who would protest, if something like that was happening.

Another serious problem that is stated in the reports is about refugees and ill-treatment of them. Greece, due to its geographical position, must accept large numbers of refugees per year. This is enhanced even more by the fact that we are member of the EU, thus refugees see Greece as a door to a better life in Germany, France etc. So far everything is ok. But most of the immigrants come to the country illegally, and here’s where the problem kicks in: Since they enter the country illegally, there is no control over them, so they can smuggle anything they want from drugs to guns (especially from Albania that is very near, after the crisis that broke out there a couple of years ago). Albanians (who are the biggest part of immigrants) after being arrested for entering the country illegally, they are expelled by the police, only to cross the border back in Greece a couple of days later. And this thing goes on and on and on… the next passage from amnesty international is revealing:
Amnesty International wrote to the Prime Minister of Greece in April 2002 following several incidents in which law enforcement officials on border duties were alleged to have shot and seriously injured unarmed Albanians trying to enter Greece illegally in search of work.
I don’t suppose that the police or the army should allow anyone to enter the country illegally. At the bottom line, we don’t know if the intruders are only “in search of work” or have other objectives!

Other nationalities that come here as refugees include Kurds, Pakistanis, Iraqis and others from the middle East. These days, the authorities expect a huge increase in the number of Kurds and Iraqis, due to the Iraqi war. They (as opposed to Albanians who enter the country from the mountains at the borders with Albania) enter the country by ships, coming from Turkey and taking advantage of the coastline, which is really hard to police. The fact is that Greece doesn’t have the resources to receive this high number of illegal refugees: unfortunately we don’t have the resources to house them, feed them or offer medical care to them. But still, we don’t sink their ships, like Italian authorities did during the Albanian crisis, killing hundreds of Albanians.

Finally, the comments in the HRW report about press freedom are utter BS! Especially the thing about Adesmeftos Typos is ridiculous: Mr Rizos used to work together with Mr Mitsis (who is now the editor of the other “newspaper with the same name”), but they had a serious disagreement and they split, and, as a result there where 2 newspapers with the name Adesmeftos Typos. After that, they exchanged a couple of articles “commentating” at each other and they ended up in courts, having sued each other. That’s how he got the charge of aggravated defamation. Regarding the “In March 2000, a renowned violinist and a composer were given prison sentences for defamation based on statements made during newspaper interviews” case, it’s all too vague. I mean, what statements? On what subjects? On which newspaper? If I go out and start saying that the PM or whoever is an asshole, then I would get (and SHOULD get) a sentence for defamation.

All in all, I want to say that Greece is no better or worst than most of the others Mediterranean countries, yet some of the western Europeans and Americans tend to believe that we are fat, hairy, smelly people that shouldn’t even be regarded as part of the western world.

And please, anyone who is interested, feel free to check the amnesty international reports on Italy, Spain or even USA


PS: Sorry for the length of my post.
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Old 2nd April 2003, 03:38   #66
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Jesus H. Christ! I didn't read it yet though. I'll tell you when I'm finished, if my attention span lasts that long... oh look at the kitty.
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Old 3rd April 2003, 19:01   #67
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I thought this was about France, not Greece.
Oh well, carry on your off topic bs!

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Old 3rd April 2003, 23:30   #68
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you need to chill down Fickle.... have a cookie
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Old 4th April 2003, 04:08   #69
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damn. usually my posts are dead after a few days, or like 20 posts.
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Old 4th April 2003, 05:50   #70
Fickle
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I need a cookie. Or maybe a croissant.
Wait, make that freedom bun!

Go read a book without pictures
pabook? | Look, a blog! | Buy Stuff I Wrote
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Old 5th April 2003, 04:08   #71
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Re: France owes us

Quote:
Originally posted by MGSolidSnake5
France owes us their lives to this very day. If it weren't for the US, and I'm sure many of you know, when WWII ended, they would be all speaking German. Now they turn their backs on us when we are going into war? I mean, they should at least help us. We didn't want to go into WWII, but we knew we would have to, and we couldn't stay neutral forever. I say at least back up the US, because they owe us their lives. We gave them the life they have today, being free. This is the reason why we now have FREEDOM FRIES, and not French Fries.
It's not a matter of support, or atleast it shouldn't be. It's about what one side considers right and what the other considers wrong. They aren't condoning the war because they believe the war was unjustified, which could be argued either way.
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Old 5th April 2003, 05:12   #72
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o- Saddam Hussein, dictator who has been oppressing his people since more than 2 decades.

o- Saddam kills whoever speaks against him in his country.

o- Uses his own people as shields. Even used chemical weapons on his own people!

o- Had 10+ years to disarm.

o- Had 2+ months to prove what he did with 4000 tons of chemical and biological weapons.

OK....maybe France can't see all that. Maybe France was scared that some of that 4000 tons of chemical and biological weapons might end up in their country and they were probably scared that Muslims would rebel in their country if they joined the war. Ok they don't want to join the war.....thats absolutely fine. At least France could've gave some thought on what he did with 4000 tons of chemical weapons?

Get me a Freedom toast with syrup.
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Old 5th April 2003, 10:37   #73
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How much history and geography do you know about the middle east?

check this tread and tell me that's not valid arguments against a war.
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Old 5th April 2003, 19:47   #74
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Dude...the figures are on the table. 4000 tons of chemical and biological weapons are unaccounted for. We don't wanna know if back in History saddam took over Kuwait or tookover Iraq....we just want the records of what he did with the chemicals.
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Old 5th April 2003, 19:52   #75
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well, strictly speaking, they're accounted for but the coalition has chosen not to believe their accounts. if anyone believes that there was anything that iraq could have done to avoid war a year ago, i'd like to hear it. there was no condition on this war - the decision was made.

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Old 5th April 2003, 22:44   #76
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I allways had problems accepting that some countries can have WMD's and some can't
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Old 7th April 2003, 22:10   #77
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Whoops.
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Old 7th April 2003, 22:14   #78
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fickle
I need a cookie. Or maybe a croissant.
Wait, make that freedom bun!
Here's a cookie. I hope you like nuts.
(I'm really messing up my posts today.)
Attached Images
File Type: gif cookie.gif (32.6 KB, 178 views)
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Old 8th April 2003, 00:52   #79
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How about thanking us Europeans for discovering fucking North America in the first place. Without Europe -> No US.
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Old 8th April 2003, 03:29   #80
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lol funk doctor - that point makes just about as much sense as the premise of this thread, so i'll let it by

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