Old 26th May 2004, 22:41   #1
oNaMiSsIo
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Should Rumsfeld Step Down? As relates to the prisoner scandal.

Donald Rumsfeld, as most of you know, is the Secretary of Defense. Much recent media coverage has been dedicated to calls for his resignation in light of the Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse scandal. A recent New Yorker article (http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040524fa_fact) details how Rumsfeld and his subordinate, Stephen Cambone, may have contributed to the torture conducted there. However, this article is controversial, and not accepted by most conservatives because of its reliance on unnamed sources.

How far up do you believe responsibility goes for the atrocities committed in Iraq? Should Rumsfeld be removed from his post, or is the removal of Janis Karpinski from her post as prison supervisor an adequate measure? Does George Bush bear responsibility for the torture endured by Iraqi civilians? Who, if anyone, is responsible for the horrors committed, and what should be done to amend for them and prevent similar occurrences?

Please read the entire article before you start discounting it. It is long, but worth reading, even if you do not agree with it. Also, I would appreciate it if this did not descend into another thread about the war on Iraq in general. If we stay on this (very interesting) topic, I think we can all learn a lot.

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Old 26th May 2004, 22:45   #2
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I think this will explain everything:


http://www.moveon.org/censure/caughtonvideo/
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Old 26th May 2004, 22:48   #3
oNaMiSsIo
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haha yes I have that clip saved on my computer somewhere.

BUT.

As much as I agree that the war in Iraq was a bad idea, can we please stay on the topic at hand? That clip has nothing to do with the prisoner scandal.

I have yet to form my opinion on whether Rumsfeld should resign, and I'd really like to see some intelligent debate here.

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Old 26th May 2004, 22:52   #4
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He posted that link on Rumsfeld, which is the topic.
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Old 26th May 2004, 22:53   #5
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Not anymore it isn't.

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Old 27th May 2004, 01:48   #6
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He's just doing his job - Gleaning information to defend his country, even if it means torturing people, some of whom may be innocent. Inciting war to protect his country's interests, even if it means lying and sending unfortunate soldiers to their deaths.

Essentially, dirty work has to be done by somebody, and he happens to be there to do it.

So no, he should not resign. He should just stop being sanctimonious and acting like he's an angel.

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Old 27th May 2004, 04:43   #7
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If Rumsfield has to resign Kerry should drop out of the Presidential Race in my opinion.

Its not like it was a scandal. Rumsfield had investigations going into it. Arrests had been made. Was it wrong for the prisoners to do that yes. Should Rumsfield rsign becaus some morons in the army did stupid crap like that, no.
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Old 27th May 2004, 04:44   #8
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I dont think the Iraq war was a bad idea either. I have my reasons. I dont care to get into yet another debate over this. Getting tired of it quite frankly lol
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Old 27th May 2004, 04:55   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by SecureFreak
If Rumsfield has to resign Kerry should drop out of the Presidential Race in my opinion.
That statement prompts the following response:


WTF?
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Old 27th May 2004, 04:59   #10
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Here this quote explains it for me:

"You support the presidency of a man who admits to defying and violating the Geneva and Hauge Conventions by the burning of homes and "free fire" of non-combatants and at the same time you cry for the resignation of a man who had people under him who violated the same conventions, that is hypocricy in my book."
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Old 27th May 2004, 05:17   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by SecureFreak
Its not like it was a scandal. Rumsfield had investigations going into it. Arrests had been made. Was it wrong for the prisoners to do that yes. Should Rumsfield rsign becaus some morons in the army did stupid crap like that, no.
Perhaps you should read the article i posted a link to. It explains why Rumsfeld is in such deep shit.

Rumsfeld approved a program designed to violate the Geneva Conventions. This in and of itself is hard to swallow, but understandable as "dirty work" when the targets were limited strictly to high-ranking Al-Qaeda members.

However, when this program was brought into the Iraqi prisons and torture was practiced upon innocent, everyday Iraqi civilians, it became a very, very grave matter.

Most people do not understand why Rumsfeld is in trouble for this. I did not understand why either, until I read the article. If you must insist that Rumsfeld bears absolutely no responsibility, please at least confront the evidence.

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Old 27th May 2004, 05:40   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by oNaMiSsIo
Perhaps you should read the article i posted a link to. It explains why Rumsfeld is in such deep shit.

Rumsfeld approved a program designed to violate the Geneva Conventions. This in and of itself is hard to swallow, but understandable as "dirty work" when the targets were limited strictly to high-ranking Al-Qaeda members.

However, when this program was brought into the Iraqi prisons and torture was practiced upon innocent, everyday Iraqi civilians, it became a very, very grave matter.

Most people do not understand why Rumsfeld is in trouble for this. I did not understand why either, until I read the article. If you must insist that Rumsfeld bears absolutely no responsibility, please at least confront the evidence.
Did you watch the Questioning before the Committiee set up to investigate this. They drilled him on that.

It seems that that kind of news never makes it to the people. Rumsfield has responded to that openly and on National Television.

The document that you are talkign about was put through examination by layers and members of the Iraq Security Council and improved by them as legal and legit.

Quite Frankly I dont care that they humilated the prisoners that where actually trying to do harm to our troops. As long as their life was never in jeporady I frnkly dont care. As for the deaths and the humilations of innocent civilians I agree 100% that those responsible in those acts should be locked away for life.

So yes I am aware of that document already.

Were you aware he has responded to it openly?

I dont have his exact words just going by what I can remember. I will try to find the text of it.
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Old 27th May 2004, 06:00   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by SecureFreak
Did you watch the Questioning before the Committiee set up to investigate this. They drilled him on that.
If you read the article, it will address that.

Quote:
Originally posted by SecureFreak
It seems that that kind of news never makes it to the people. Rumsfield has responded to that openly and on National Television.
If you read the article, it will address that.

Quote:
Originally posted by SecureFreak
The document that you are talkign about was put through examination by layers and members of the Iraq Security Council and improved by them as legal and legit.
What?

Quote:
Originally posted by SecureFreak
Quite Frankly I dont care that they humilated the prisoners that where actually trying to do harm to our troops. As long as their life was never in jeporady I frnkly dont care. As for the deaths and the humilations of innocent civilians I agree 100% that those responsible in those acts should be locked away for life.
You don't quite seem to have a handle on the facts.
The prisoners were not merely humiliated. Such severe psychological trauma was done to these people that a number of them (and not any small number) have committed suicide upon returning home.
The mere fact that men were beaten to death means that their lives were in jeopardy.
This paragraph seems to contradict itself because at first you say you don't care that people were 'humiliated' or harmed as long as their lives were not threatened, and then you say that those who did the 'humiliating' and killing should be jailed. Am I reading this correctly, or could you explain it a little better?

Quote:
Originally posted by SecureFreak
So yes I am aware of that document already.
I BEG you, read it. Please.

Quote:
Originally posted by SecureFreak
Were you aware he has responded to it openly?
If you read the article, it will address that.



I honestly didn't expect to be debating what actually happened in Abu Ghraib. I expected this would be more of a discussion on who bears responsibility for what was done.

But if anyone would like to defend the torture of innocent civilians, "Bring it on."

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Old 27th May 2004, 13:59   #14
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Fuck everyone on the current administration 'cept Colin Powell whose future has been ruined for having anything to do with the Bush posse.
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Old 27th May 2004, 15:31   #15
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"cruel and unusual punishment".

i don't give a shit whether rumsfeld had anything to do with it - that's what happened.

anyone who says any different either doesn't know what they're seeing, or won't admit it.

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Old 2nd June 2004, 03:34   #16
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Rumsfeld - Just a Boob.
Bush and Cheney = Dolly Parton

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Old 2nd June 2004, 03:38   #17
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Great analogy.
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Old 2nd June 2004, 04:25   #18
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Sigh.... I think I remember why I joined pabuk a while ago....

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