Old 30th April 2006, 00:34   #1
Lewis Holt
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What's Cruel and What Isn't?

Italy restaurant fined for "cruel" lobster display

Apr 28, 8:56 AM (ET)

ROME (Reuters) - An Italian restaurant was fined 688 euros ($855) for displaying live lobsters on ice to attract patrons, in an innovative application of an anti-cruelty law usually affecting to household pets.

A court in the northeastern city of Vicenza ruled the display was a form of abuse dooming the crustaceans to a slow death by suffocation.

"We're appealing," said Giuseppe Scalesia, who runs La Conchiglia D'Oro, or "Golden Shell," restaurant along with his brother Camillo.

"They said that the lobsters, laying on the ice, suffer... They compared them in court to other animals, like cats and dogs."

The case was brought by Gianpaolo Cecchetto, a former environmental activist, who took his two young children to the Vicenza restaurant in May 2002.

"They were shocked by the display," Cecchetto told Reuters, adding he immediately got in touch with the ENPA national animal protection entity. "ENPA took care of the lawyers and legal proceedings."

Italy has some of the world's toughest animal rights laws. The city of Rome in October banned goldfish bowls, seen as cruel, while Turin passed a law last year that would fine dog owners 500 euros unless they walked their canine friends at least three times a day.

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I can see the lobster thing, but goldfish bowls and walking your dog at least three times a day? How does Italy's economy keep rolling if everyone has to quit their jobs so they can walk their dog?
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Old 30th April 2006, 01:00   #2
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Re: What's Cruel and What Isn't?

Quote:
Originally posted by Lewis Holt
Turin passed a law last year that would fine dog owners 500 euros unless they walked their canine friends at least three times a day.[/B]
It's cruel, against the owners that is.

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Old 30th April 2006, 01:46   #3
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Who told you that italians respect the laws???

Im son of italian and i lived in Rome for 3 years, nobody respect ANY law at all.
They like to make laws (Roman laws are famous= but they don't like to obey
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Old 30th April 2006, 02:36   #4
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Even worse--- in the following investigation, it became apparent that they intended to kill the lobsters and eat them!!! Oh the humanity!!!


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Old 2nd May 2006, 21:38   #5
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As a hunter and fisherman, I don't mind killing for eating, but, I can see myself supporting the enforcement of a law to stop avoidable suffering. Keep the lobsters in an aquarium.

Anything that suffers too much before death usually ends up tasting bad anyway (if you want a technical explanation for this, reply and I'll explain).

When I hunt I don't pull the trigger unless I can confidently say it'll be a clean kill, if there is such a thing (if not a fast death with minimal suffering).

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Old 2nd May 2006, 21:47   #6
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Lobsters have such a small brain that the amount of pain they feel is virtually none...Flip them over on their backs, and their brains will hit the back of their craniums, esentially knocking them unconscious or putting them to "sleep"...

...goddammit, I feel like eating seafood now...

I'll take my lobster dead and boiled, please...

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Old 3rd May 2006, 00:40   #7
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Poor frozen lobsters......

I know, let's boil those bugs!
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Old 3rd May 2006, 00:48   #8
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I agree that animals shouldn't have to suffer unnecessarily, but the point always seems kinda moot if you're just going to kill it anyway.
Still, if they're gonna display live lobsters, why not put them in a water-filled tank like everybody else?


Who is the milkman? What is the purpose of the goggles?
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Old 3rd May 2006, 01:22   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by LuigiHann
I agree that animals shouldn't have to suffer unnecessarily, but the point always seems kinda moot if you're just going to kill it anyway.
You'd rather suffer than die painlessly?

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Old 3rd May 2006, 01:28   #10
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I think the point is, a lobster isn't close enough to a human to warrant sympathy in the definite sense, since sym pathy is shared feeling/emotion and the lobster almost certainly doesn't have that.

I bet we'd legislate robot-abuse laws, even if we never gave them the capacity for pain--if they verbally emulated it, we'd call abusing them torture despite their lack of a way to experience it.
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Old 3rd May 2006, 01:29   #11
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I'd rather not be a lobster, if it's up to me.
But you missed my point entirely. I'd rather die painlessly than die painfully, but at the end of the day I'd still be dead.


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Old 3rd May 2006, 01:54   #12
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How come nobody's whining about all the insects that we slowly and painfully poison to death?

I don't care what you say, lobsters and crabs are just big insects.
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Old 3rd May 2006, 02:13   #13
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They're crustaceans. Both crustaceans and insects are types of arthropods. Arachnids (like spiders) are also arthropods. So they're similar, for sure.


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Old 3rd May 2006, 04:33   #14
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How can you be cruel to a lobster or a crab?. I've seen them get legs ripped off and it doesn't bother them much. They don't yell when you drop them in a pot of boiling water.

These guys have a visual cortex and ganglia instead of a central nervous system. I doubt they even have anything like pain.

Lobster abuse... No jambalaya or garlic butter?.
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Old 3rd May 2006, 05:18   #15
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There's no conclusive evidence that invertebrates can feel pain but they still react in a way that suggests that they do.
This next part is quoted from Viva who are pretty militant and I'll say now that I don't agree with all of their ideas before people think I am an animal rights campaigner.

"One of the most common methods of slaughter used, and possibly the cruellest, is boiling alive. As the lobster is dropped into the boiling water it whips its body frantically and scrapes at the side of the pot saucepan. It can take up three minutes to die. In the journal Science, researcher Gordon Gunter described this method of killing lobsters as “unnecessary torture”.

Some believe that putting lobsters in cold water and then heating it slowly causes them to lose consciousness before reaching boiling point. Dr J R Baker, for the Humane Education Centre, found that as the temperature of the water rises, lobsters begin shaking and trembling and start to convulse.

Lobsters who are put into fresh, unsalted tap water flip wildly, assume unnatural postures, regurgitate food and suffer from what appear to be painful swelling of their joints. Again, according to J R Baker: “It is almost as though one sought to anaesthetize a human being, encased in tight armour, by a slow injection of fresh water into the blood stream”.

The Universities Federation for Animal Welfare recommends that live lobsters should be killed by splitting them in half down the centre line using a large French cook’s knife. As the lobster has a chain of nerve centres all along the mid-line, from head to tail, each one would have to be cut through to ensure that it is unable to feel pain. Not a job for an amateur! Others believe that thrusting a knife directly into the animal’s head between its eyes causes instant death but scientists disagree, arguing that lobsters feel pain during and after the cut.

Another supposedly painless death is to place the lobster in a freezer but this is likely to cause ice crystal formation inside the shell and result in acute pain."


Personally I'd not eat lobster for the fact it's a plankton feeder and the sea is a filthy place full of chemicals and effluent which which is why so many people get food poisoning from shellfish. It's eating bypassed sewage. Yuck.
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Old 3rd May 2006, 05:27   #16
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So what you're saying is, they're going to suffer anyway so why bother?

Because I'm never going to stop eating lobster...unless it kills me, that is.
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Old 3rd May 2006, 05:31   #17
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People should eat whatever they want to eat. I'm just fussy because I was stupid enough to go and find out how my meat was treated before it became dinner.
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Old 3rd May 2006, 05:40   #18
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Man, I wish Red Lobster wasn't so spendy
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Old 3rd May 2006, 13:08   #19
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I got crabs for free once.
Getting rid of them cost a bit though
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Old 3rd May 2006, 15:17   #20
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sometimes when you eat raw lobster it still kinda moves.
flesh is clear but sweat.

anyway... this picture is cruel.
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Old 3rd May 2006, 16:00   #21
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I saw on NGC: some people near mongolia, cutting the head of a live monkey and eating the brain from inside it, while the monkey was alive and desperate.

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Old 3rd May 2006, 16:11   #22
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I'm strongly against any animal cruelty. Pain is unnecesary. I am sure if you were that lobster on the ice you'd be thinking, "gee I wish I could blow tourch my way outta here".

Think of the damn animals.

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Old 3rd May 2006, 16:14   #23
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So these two lobsters are chilling one some ice.
The first one says "It's a little cold in here, eh?"
The second one says "Holy crap! A talking lobster!"


Who is the milkman? What is the purpose of the goggles?
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Old 3rd May 2006, 16:21   #24
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My sis got accidentally locked in a faulty-door Perkins Restaurant walk-in freezer for quite a few minutes once, and although it wasn't a life-threatening time period, she was quite scared. She didn't know you can disable the cooling machine thingies with the red kill-switches on them.

Don't forget to live before you die.
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Old 3rd May 2006, 16:41   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by taylormemer
I'm strongly against any animal cruelty. Pain is unnecesary. I am sure if you were that lobster on the ice you'd be thinking, "gee I wish I could blow tourch my way outta here".

Think of the damn animals.
This statement really only makes logical sense in a religious code, IMO. I'm sure you'll disagree, but I think that unless you can establish some definitely negative (and lasting) effect to the suffering of a lobster, all you have is a misplaced form or sentiment.

The lobster is alive, the lobster will die. The method of death might be painful, it might be totally passive. Maybe it will be predated upon, or will die of old age or disease; maybe it will be boiled alive or frozen solid. However, death is inevitable and its final effects are the same.

Now you are going to tell me to put myself in the perspective of a lobster. Unfortunately, we have not the slightest idea what that is or what degree of cognitive/tactile faculties a lobster has as related to self-consciousness.

At the end of the day, the lobster lives or dies essentially in a vaccuum. If you want better protections for animals, find a way to get them to talk.

(That being said, I don't torture animals. I just know that I don't do it for mostly religious reasons.)
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Old 3rd May 2006, 18:20   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rocker
anyway... this picture is cruel.
Cruel?
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