Old 15th March 2013, 17:06   #41
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Originally Posted by MrSinatra View Post
had he said that PRIOR to my post, i wouldn't have messaged gracenote. but he didn't, he blamed the DLLs. Aminifu suggested contacting gracenote and so i did. no malice intended, no intention to hassle anyone, and without a doubt, no cause to heap shit at me. no good deed goes unpunished.
All you need is a bit of patience. And maybe learn a bit more about British Sarcasm.

Anyway - don't get all defensive. Forget that. Life is too short for arguments.


Better suggestion - go and take your MP3 toolbox to these dodgy tracks and see if you can see anything that stands out to you. There is something in common with all 39 of these tracks. You know your way around the tags. So time to use that skill set to get in...

You know MP3Val and programs like that better than most around here.
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Old 15th March 2013, 17:17   #42
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Originally Posted by Batter Pudding View Post
All you need is a bit of patience. And maybe learn a bit more about British Sarcasm.

Anyway - don't get all defensive. Forget that. Life is too short for arguments.
trust me, DrO isn't joking around.

and no one asked for patience. in fact, apathy is a greater killer here than impatience.

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Originally Posted by Batter Pudding View Post
Better suggestion - go and take your MP3 toolbox to these dodgy tracks and see if you can see anything that stands out to you. There is something in common with all 39 of these tracks. You know your way around the tags. So time to use that skill set to get in...

You know MP3Val and programs like that better than most around here.
maybe ur not reading my whole post, but i did that. i tried everything i could think of on the one file.

if you know something, share it.

and i removed all tags, and it still crashed.

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Old 15th March 2013, 17:25   #43
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a single "sent to" file fails as well.
Never understand why you do the huge replies.... a quick summarised reply is clearer to read. I am not trying to challenge you. This is a community working together.

Yes, a single Sent To fails. As I noted above a few times. But clearly didn't make that clear enough. Sorry for my dodgy English.

It is the Send To dialog that the fail appears through. If that is a list of one, or a list of 39, it fails at the same point. Just before "Done" should be appearing on the screen. And as noted by DrNo this is visible at the point it gets lost in the call stack. I assume as the Gracenote library returns from the call, it falls over. But this will be still out of sight of the Winamp guys at that point. So still in that grey area of - is it a bad function or bad data passed in?


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i did everything i could think of on one track, Dean Martin. renamed it, vbrfix, removed all tags, etc... everything crashes winamp when doing a send to, but alt+3 works fine as u discovered.
Cool. The whole baseball bat of the toolkits you have. Mad isn't it? What is "special" here? Very odd. I have put sooooo many track through the Winamp Auto-tagger over the years, and yet this little set has something in common that Winamp don't like. This is why I would be surprised if it was the Winamp code itself. It is something special that these tracks are triggering.

When I did my tests this morning the main thing I did was to let Winamp retag the file. And this action alone I would have expected the whole Tag part of the file to get re-written. And if you have removed the tags then you have taken that further. Yet still the puzzle is left in the actual MP3.
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thats why i'm looking more at the file properties, and encoder properties. i'm thinking aminifu might be best at that with his mp3diags tools.
I am suspicious of the files. If they come form P2P then there can be gaps in there. Or the file can just be missing bits. I don't know how an MP3 is encoded, but if there are data fields for lengths of the actual music track, maybe the music track is actually of the wrong length?

I am aware that Gracenote has an algorithm that also involves "listening" to the track to identify it. So I guess that something about an attempt to "Listen" to these tracks is providing bad data to their function.

Still bonkers though
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Old 15th March 2013, 17:38   #44
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trust me, DrO isn't joking around.

and no one asked for patience. in fact, apathy is a greater killer here than impatience.
Contacting gracenote will not help as DrO and the winamp devs need TIME to trace issues like this. As you can see by the notes in the thread, they are clearly looking at it. Software development has to be worked in patient steps. It is obvious from DrO's comments that real progress has been made. There is no apathy in this issue, but it is now Friday and past the end of the working day.

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maybe ur not reading my whole post, but i did that. i tried everything i could think of on the one file.

if you know something, share it.

and i removed all tags, and it still crashed.
I didn't see your post about this when I replied. We are both typing too fast. Your research is perfect. Of course I am not hiding anything. We are all trying to help here.

I am now going to try and get away from all the personal stuff that is again polluting this thread. I've had a tired long day and need that beer. Peace and love all.
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Old 15th March 2013, 17:51   #45
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Originally Posted by Batter Pudding View Post
Never understand why you do the huge replies.... a quick summarised reply is clearer to read. I am not trying to challenge you. This is a community working together.
i understand there is no malice in this comment, but i respond the way i think is helpful to "the community working together" and if anyone doesn't like it, they simply don't have to read it. i am at a loss as to why anyone thinks someone else should write the way they approve of, either substantively or stylistically, (outside of normal givens, like comprehensibleness). frankly, it smacks of hubris imo.

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Originally Posted by Batter Pudding View Post
Yes, a single Sent To fails. As I noted above a few times. But clearly didn't make that clear enough. Sorry for my dodgy English.
if i missed it earlier, my mistake. the threads gotten long and grown quickly.

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Originally Posted by Batter Pudding View Post
It is the Send To dialog that the fail appears through. If that is a list of one, or a list of 39, it fails at the same point. Just before "Done" should be appearing on the screen. And as noted by DrNo this is visible at the point it gets lost in the call stack. I assume as the Gracenote library returns from the call, it falls over. But this will be still out of sight of the Winamp guys at that point. So still in that grey area of - is it a bad function or bad data passed in?
i follow. i should correct myself, on my test file it fails as "processing" not "processed."

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Originally Posted by Batter Pudding View Post
Cool. The whole baseball bat of the toolkits you have. Mad isn't it? What is "special" here? Very odd. I have put sooooo many track through the Winamp Auto-tagger over the years, and yet this little set has something in common that Winamp don't like. This is why I would be surprised if it was the Winamp code itself. It is something special that these tracks are triggering.
yes, i tend to agree. i have tried everything i can think of.

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When I did my tests this morning the main thing I did was to let Winamp retag the file. And this action alone I would have expected the whole Tag part of the file to get re-written. And if you have removed the tags then you have taken that further. Yet still the puzzle is left in the actual MP3.
I am suspicious of the files. If they come form P2P then there can be gaps in there. Or the file can just be missing bits. I don't know an MP3 is encoded, but if there are data fields for lengths of the actual music track, maybe the music track is actually of the wrong length?
i don't think it has anything to do with tags at all, given the results. i think it is something in the files properties, and missing frames is a likely culprit, as there is a "light" kind of audio fingerprinting done by autotag. so if it is failing in "processing" it could be due to missing frames in the middle of the file from bad p2p as you suggest. but why then does it work with alt+3?

and the headers do not show an error between file length/data length, etc... sometimes i get header errors in the Xing header where it reports one size while the file is actually another, etc, but that doesn't seem to be the cause here, b/c even if it were, it still crashes after the exam/fixed.

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Originally Posted by Batter Pudding View Post
I am aware that Gracenote has an algorithm that also involves "listening" to the track to identify it. So I guess that something about an attempt to "Listen" to these tracks is providing bad data to their function.

Still bonkers though
yeah, thats the audio fingerprinting. its not a true audio fingerprint, but like a "quick one." u can see this is how it works though, b/c if u take a file with no tags, and random file name / file location, sometimes it will still ID it correctly.

the formula does seem to be:

some "unique" and as yet unknown characteristic of these files, probably in the encoding, + the send to function and gracenote = a crash everytime.

are they all vbr? i wonder if they all share the same encoder? (some are crappy!)

i also wonder where else we could "send to" these files to see if other functions crash?

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Old 15th March 2013, 18:05   #46
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some "unique" and as yet unknown characteristic of these files, probably in the encoding, + the send to function and gracenote = a crash everytime.
The simple summary we are coming to so far.

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are they all vbr? i wonder if they all share the same encoder? (some are crappy!)
I have been using MediaInfo on a random selection of these files. And the sample I dipped into all seem to be LAME3.98r (and one 3.99r) encoded and certainly not all VBR. Just a random selection of different options.

Example non-VBR is Ella Fitzgerald and Louis Armstrong - Tenderly.mp3

Have only quickly looked at half a dozen in Media Info as I still don't have that beer open...
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Old 15th March 2013, 18:19   #47
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Contacting gracenote will not help as DrO and the winamp devs need TIME to trace issues like this.
fine, fair enough, np. but you are saying this in hindsight. there was nothing to suggest that contacting gracenote was some major problem until AFTER i did so. (and just what is that major problem exactly?)

at 12:30:

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That's a shame. Are these library files provided by Gracenote? Is there anything we, as users, can do to put pressure on them to look at (and possibly fix) these files?
then you, shortly after 1:10pm, and after DrO's response:

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Originally Posted by Batter Pudding View Post
Not the Winamp devs, this is Gracenote. You'd have to contact them as this is their bug. Nothing Winamp can do.
not exhibiting much patience i have to say. then me, a mere 20 minutes later with no important post inbetween:

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i sent a msg
so what exactly did i do thats impatient regarding your POV at that time? not in hindsight?

what clue did i have, that you didn't have, at that time?

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Originally Posted by Batter Pudding View Post
As you can see by the notes in the thread, they are clearly looking at it.
yes, thats clear NOW, AFTER i've been stomped for no good reason.

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Originally Posted by Batter Pudding View Post
Software development has to be worked in patient steps. It is obvious from DrO's comments that real progress has been made. There is no apathy in this issue, but it is now Friday and past the end of the working day.
at the time i sent a msg, it was not clear. and while it seems NOW that there may be momentum behind the issue going forward, thats still to be seen, but regardless has no bearing on at that time i sent the msg. and besides, what is the HARM in gracenote looking at it too? so someone there looks at it, and maybe they fix it, or maybe they say winamp is at fault, SO WHAT? is that really anything to yell at me about? (not you, but DrO. i truly feel that was completely undeserved).

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Originally Posted by Batter Pudding View Post
I didn't see your post about this when I replied. We are both typing too fast. Your research is perfect. Of course I am not hiding anything. We are all trying to help here.

I am now going to try and get away from all the personal stuff that is again polluting this thread. I've had a tired long day and need that beer. Peace and love all.
i didn't make anything personal, i am merely defending myself, (again, not from you). but i don't appreciate being the whipping post for someone else's sour mood.

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Old 16th March 2013, 16:58   #48
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Not the Winamp devs, this is Gracenote. You'd have to contact them as this is their bug. Nothing Winamp can do.

But the nice thing is this is only a small number of dodgy files. It is so rare to see this. Did you get these from P2P? Or rip them yourself?
It's a mix of both p2p and ripping. I see at least 4 that were ripped with winamp, itself.
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Old 16th March 2013, 17:09   #49
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I love a puzzle and digging into possible solutions. But I also agree that we should not be shouting at anyone, especially Gracenote and you guys at Winamp. This is a puzzle built around some known corrupted MP3s. And compared with the tens of thousands of tracks I have passed through Winamp's Auto-tag these few are a tiny drop in the ocean.

PATIENCE is required from everyone. Especially those hassling Gracenote.

And even more importantly - it is way past Beer O'Clock!!
Let me point out that the 7 mp3's from this list that I ran through the standards test (that is, looked at their internal payloads, section by section and compared the payloads to the file specification format) are all uncorrupted. To call them "known corrupted mp3's" might cause troubleshooting to head down the wrong path.

I am a programmer (since 1979) and have written code in Assember, Pascal, COBOL, ForTran, C, C++, C# Ada and several other languages (I'm a Navy Vet) and calling something corrupted when it was not would really get my goat at times--if anything, the Alpha and Beta testers were the worst at using the word. Maybe that's why I have this tick-in-the-cheek over it.

At any rate, I have spent nearly 12 hours going through the specification for MPEG and find that they are all 7 within compliance. I stopped when I felt it was a fairly obvious conclusion. The error does not necessarily lie with Gracenote, either. If that were the case, the call to Gracenote's DLL (which is the same call regardless of whether it came from ALT-3 or SendTo) would most likely produce the exact same results--unless the programmer was clearly a buffoon (which I doubt based on the overall quality of the application).

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Old 16th March 2013, 17:14   #50
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@MrS: Yes, it is an interesting puzzle that a single one of these MP3 files sent via ALT+3 works. Yet a list of tracks fails. As we don't know how the library works this could be a simple difference of how a list of tracks are passed to the library.

Libraries I've worked with past could work in different ways when it came to multiple files. Sometimes they would want a linked list. Othertimes an array. Othertimes wanting the data packed into a buffer.


What is most interesting to me is watching the crash on a long list of tracks. When you load ALL those tracks up and pump them at Send To -> AutoTag you see then all resolve and get to the "Queried" stage and the crash seems to happen once the last track is at the "Queried" state. i.e. they all seem to finished the main part of the lookup ("Analyzing") and then fail as the last one returns on that list. Yet none of them reach the final "Done" state.

Yet this crash only happens on these tracks. Anything else will still lookup fine.

MrS - have you downloaded these tracks to have a look? I know you are a bit of a Whizz with MP3Val and stuff like that. Maybe you can spot something funky that shouldn't be in there? They are all of a horrendously compressed quality. Different rippers, different qualities, different types of rip, with and without embedded artwork (just compared a few with Media Info)

My guess is these are from P2P and may now always have "completed". So could have all kinds of cruddy quality issues in there. Some of the P2P networks have horrendous crud on them as I assume this is where these come from.
Battered Pudding, I have noted that the crash occurs during the "Processing" phase, not "Queried". If you find the last mp3 that showed "Processing", it will, 100% of the time, be one of the mp3s that fail to auto tag. According to my testing log, I performed 1,819 Auto Tags and only a single one crashed without the word "Processing" showing up. I equate that anomaly to the possibility that the user interface did not have time to display the word before it froze.
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Old 16th March 2013, 17:21   #51
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yes, thats clear NOW, AFTER i've been stomped for no good reason.
But MrSinatra, you're such an EASY target, LOL. I mean, even your name is embedded in the "Fools Rush In" mp3. You're obviously part of the conspiracy.
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Old 16th March 2013, 17:28   #52
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I hate to see those who I consider Winamp support heroes fighting. I feel a little responsible. I did suggest in post #11 that WordTickler post some of the problem songs, which was done in post #14. If I had not made that suggestion, maybe the rest would not have happened.

I did ask DrO 4 questions in post #24 based on his post #23, which he answered in post #27.

I thought Batter Pudding was jumping to conclusions about where the fault lay in his post #29 and said as much in post #31. I also thought MrSinatra was maybe being premature in sending a message to Gracenote, which he told us about in post #32. But since he did not share the context of his message, I was not sure. It was also a done deal, so I saw no point in saying anything about it.

Taking posts #24 and #29 by themselves, I can understand the conclusion MrSinatra reached concerning contacting Gracenote. However, I actually only asked DrO what we could do visa-vie Gracenote and ended my post indirectly questioning whether Gracenote was even at fault. DrO's responses in post #27 made it clear that the exact problem and who was at fault had not been determined. There was a lot of cross posting going on, so I can only assume MrSinatra did not see (or choose to read) post #27 before he sent his message to Gracenote and that's assuming he sent something criticizing or blaming them.

Not knowing what was in the message, how can any of us judge it? MrSinatra has not admitted to hassling Gracenote. He has not denied it either, but that does not prove the opposite it true. I disagree with MrSinatra quite a bit on how Winamp should be used and some of the features it should provide, but I believe he is motivated by a sincere desire to help Winamp be the best it can be (and we all have different opinions as to what that is).

Anyway, I've downloaded 3 of the problem songs (2 of which Batter Pudding mentioned by name) and will see what MP3 Diags has to say about them. In cases like this, there is not much we (as users) can do, imo. We should have patience (like Batter Pudding says) and give the devs time to do their thing.

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Old 16th March 2013, 17:29   #53
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It's a mix of both p2p and ripping. I see at least 4 that were ripped with winamp, itself.
Which 4?

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Old 16th March 2013, 21:41   #54
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for the record, i am not a barbarian, why would anyone think i contacted gracenote and abused them? what sense would that make?

i don't recall exactly what i put in their webform, but it was something like: "please take a look at your DLLs" and then i added the link to this thread. such affrontery!

god, i'd give more benefit of the doubt to an ex con.

just for the record, the idea to contact gracenote was first voiced by AMINIFU, not me, and the blame was first squarely placed on gracenote by BP, not me. at the time i sent the webform, there was no post to suggest one shouldn't, and for being pro-active (ie. not apathetic) and trying to move things along, i was attacked and my motivations questioned. its just total BS, and i will not just silently take that kind of treatment. and as far as DrO is concerned, he had no cause whatsoever to speak to me like that. how many times have we all seen him tell someone regarding a given 3rd party plugin, which the gracenote dll is, that you "have to contact the developer." hmm? well? thousands? so all i do is send a note with the link to this thread and he shits all over me and thats considered in any way legitimate? i ask again, what harm comes from this that i deserved that? what harm is there at all???

BS.

BACK TO THE ISSUE AT HAND...

it is very interesting that u spot 4 rips made with winamp that cause the crash. i would suggest you use a free tool, EAC, to make 2 more rips of the same songs, one a FLAC, one a lame 3.99.5 one, and see if those versions also crash winamp when doing a "send to"

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Old 17th March 2013, 16:13   #55
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Hi Everyone,

The 3 files I looked at with MP3 Diags are:

Dan Winter and Rob Mayth - Dare Me
Ella Fitzgerald and Louis Armstrong - Tenderly
Frank Sinatra - Fools Rush In

Bottom line, MP3 Diags found problems in all 3. All 3 played before and after MP3 Diags 'fixed' the problems it could (see below). All 3 crashed Winamp using "Send to:" to auto-tag them before and after the MP3 Diags fixes.

I expected this result since MrSinatra ran them (or others in the group) through MP3Val and even stripped tags and they still crashed Winamp using "Send to:".

Anyway, for what it's worth, this is what MP3 Diags found. It noted that all 3 songs do not have an APIC frame. This is not a problem since none of the files have embedded art. All 3 songs have the following 4 issues and MP3 Diags was able to 'fix' them by removal.

1. Invalid ID3v1.1b tag. Invalid characters in Name field.
2. Unknown stream found. Since other streams follow, it is possible that players and tools will have problems using the file. Removing the stream is recommended.
3. Unsupported Ape tag. Tag missing header or footer - begins with: "APE" (41 50 45).
4. Unsupported stream found.

The song "Dare Me" also has the padding in the ID3v2.3 tag too large, wasting space (MP3 Diags was not able to fix this, and is not really an error, imo).

The song "Fools Rush In" also has VBR with audio streams other than MPEG 1 Layer III (MP3 Diags was not able to fix this). The song is also encoded at 22,050Hz and 64,000bps (this is quality issue rather than an error, imo).


All 3 songs also have this curious comment, "Auto Tag Killer". Maybe WordTickler can shed some light on this. Were these files ran through some kind of tag remover app at some point?


These files are definitely dodgy, as Batter Pudding says. But it is curious that the flag DrO mentioned allowed them to work with the "Send to:" auto-tagging method. If anything, this proves to me that Winamp is very robust at playing poorly made mp3s and it does auto-tag these files through the direct tag editor (Alt+3) method, so that is a plus also.

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Old 17th March 2013, 19:49   #56
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the flag i disabled was a misnomer. the issue (which is pointing more at just being a Gracenote issue but is still not 100% confirmed as that based on the debugging done on the methods done in Winamp as part of the finger-printing stage) has been reported through official contacts (as of late Friday) so will now need to wait to be triaged as applicable.
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Old 17th March 2013, 20:10   #57
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has anyone tried converting one of these problem mp3s to FLAC and then doing a send to gracenote?

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Old 17th March 2013, 20:54   #58
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Originally Posted by Aminifu View Post
Hi Everyone,

The 3 files I looked at with MP3 Diags are:

Dan Winter and Rob Mayth - Dare Me
Ella Fitzgerald and Louis Armstrong - Tenderly
Frank Sinatra - Fools Rush In

Bottom line, MP3 Diags found problems in all 3. All 3 played before and after MP3 Diags 'fixed' the problems it could (see below). All 3 crashed Winamp using "Send to:" to auto-tag them before and after the MP3 Diags fixes.

I expected this result since MrSinatra ran them (or others in the group) through MP3Val and even stripped tags and they still crashed Winamp using "Send to:".

Anyway, for what it's worth, this is what MP3 Diags found. It noted that all 3 songs do not have an APIC frame. This is not a problem since none of the files have embedded art. All 3 songs have the following 4 issues and MP3 Diags was able to 'fix' them by removal.

1. Invalid ID3v1.1b tag. Invalid characters in Name field.
2. Unknown stream found. Since other streams follow, it is possible that players and tools will have problems using the file. Removing the stream is recommended.
3. Unsupported Ape tag. Tag missing header or footer - begins with: "APE" (41 50 45).
4. Unsupported stream found.

The song "Dare Me" also has the padding in the ID3v2.3 tag too large, wasting space (MP3 Diags was not able to fix this, and is not really an error, imo).

The song "Fools Rush In" also has VBR with audio streams other than MPEG 1 Layer III (MP3 Diags was not able to fix this). The song is also encoded at 22,050Hz and 64,000bps (this is quality issue rather than an error, imo).


All 3 songs also have this curious comment, "Auto Tag Killer". Maybe WordTickler can shed some light on this. Were these files ran through some kind of tag remover app at some point?


These files are definitely dodgy, as Batter Pudding says. But it is curious that the flag DrO mentioned allowed them to work with the "Send to:" auto-tagging method. If anything, this proves to me that Winamp is very robust at playing poorly made mp3s and it does auto-tag these files through the direct tag editor (Alt+3) method, so that is a plus also.
I am the one that placed "Auto Tag Killer" in the comments of these files. It allowed me to see them in a list and avoid inadverdantly trying to Auto Tag them.

I guess I should not have stopped at just looking at 7 files. The problems you are seeing are in files I didn't look into. As for the 4 that were ripped using Winamp, if someone needs to know which ones they were (after making a case that it really is important), I'll go back into the files and identify them.

Actually, guys, I've really been trying to stop any further troubleshooting of this issue as I have already spent too much time on it. That's why I asked, early on, who I would need to get the files to. I was thinking the programmer responsible for maintaining the Auto Tag code would have far more tech at his/her disposal to find the problem. I simply wanted to prove that the problem can be reproduced at will.

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has anyone tried converting one of these problem mp3s to FLAC and then doing a send to gracenote?
Yup, MrSinatra. Converting to flac still crashed it for me.
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Old 17th March 2013, 21:03   #59
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That's why I asked, early on, who I would need to get the files to. I was thinking the programmer responsible for maintaining the Auto Tag code would have far more tech at his/her disposal to find the problem. I simply wanted to prove that the problem can be reproduced at will.
and that has been achieved, just can you please ensure those files are kept available for the time being as it's the link we've sent to Gracenote via our [Winamp's] official contact.
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Old 17th March 2013, 21:15   #60
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I guess I should not have stopped at just looking at 7 files. The problems you are seeing are in files I didn't look into. As for the 4 that were ripped using Winamp, if someone needs to know which ones they were (after making a case that it really is important), I'll go back into the files and identify them.
not necessary, i'll explain...

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Actually, guys, I've really been trying to stop any further troubleshooting of this issue as I have already spent too much time on it. That's why I asked, early on, who I would need to get the files to. I was thinking the programmer responsible for maintaining the Auto Tag code would have far more tech at his/her disposal to find the problem. I simply wanted to prove that the problem can be reproduced at will.
we're obsessed nerds, we enjoy this kind of thing actually, when we're not attacking one another. u can def feel free to step away, u've more than done your duty. (i'm a vet too btw)

DrO is a dev, and he has now contacted gracenote, exactly as i did, only more officially.

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Yup, MrSinatra. Converting to flac still crashed it for me.
this is why it doesn't matter what ripped or made the files. it likely isn't encoder related since this is the case.

i think something about the results crashes the DLL. perhaps the DLL isn't unicode, and it gets back chars it can't handle?

what will be fascinating to find out, is what was the common characteristic to all these files that caused the crash? its amazing you found 39 examples when i've never seen this once. and its also interesting that they all seem to be in the easy listening type genre, which i also have a good amount of.

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Old 17th March 2013, 22:41   #61
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After testing on normal mp3s, the only thing I can find that's different when tagging using the 'Alt+3' method and using 'Send To...' is that when using 'Send To...' it adds an extra tag called UNIQUEFILEID to every track (according to mp3tag). Not sure if it's relevant, but thought I'd bring it up just in case.

An example of what that tag looks like for one for of the tracks is below. The quotation marks aren't part of the tag, I just put them there so it wouldn't display as a link. If you follow it as a link it says the page isn't found.

"http://www.cddb.com/id3/taginfo1.html|3CD3N96Q133243534V6868FC2BAF2F923637E5C347C6A5F7777DP7"
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Old 18th March 2013, 07:39   #62
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and that has been achieved, just can you please ensure those files are kept available for the time being as it's the link we've sent to Gracenote via our [Winamp's] official contact.
No problem. I'll check back here for someone to say that they are no longer needed.
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Old 18th March 2013, 09:28   #63
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Battered Pudding, I have noted that the crash occurs during the "Processing" phase, not "Queried". If you find the last mp3 that showed "Processing", it will, 100% of the time, be one of the mp3s that fail to auto tag. According to my testing log, I performed 1,819 Auto Tags and only a single one crashed without the word "Processing" showing up. I equate that anomaly to the possibility that the user interface did not have time to display the word before it froze.
What I meant by that is... I agree with you. I get a feeling some kind of list is passed to the function and it is the last one in the list that triggers the crash. I remember using overloaded C++ function calls which would be subtly different between a single lookup and a multiple lookup. From what I was looking at (as a remote observer) seemed to imply that the Auto-Tag fell over as it returned from the call as the last item in the list was returning.

I was testing ONLY with your set of 39. And in those cases I'd pass in ten of the "odd" tracks and see all of them get to Queried except the last one. Then it would fall over.

Slapped wrist here for the "corrupted" description. I know exactly what you mean about using the wrong words. I think they need to be called "special mutants" as it amazes me how they are passing tests for valid data, having tags stripped, and even being converted to FLAC and they still flip out something and cause the crash.

The important thing in in this messy thread has always been DrO. He is your Man Of Action. The rest of us just like kicking problems around, and in some bizarre cases kicking each other around. We really need a "take it outside" forum here so all this pointless off topic bickering can be cleared to over there as this thread is looking embarrassing if Gracenote read any of it.
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Old 21st March 2013, 04:36   #64
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More Auto Tag Killers

I've added (and will continue) a few more mp3s that put a tick in the Auto Tag feature's cheek.
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Old 22nd March 2013, 14:58   #65
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After testing on normal mp3s, the only thing I can find that's different when tagging using the 'Alt+3' method and using 'Send To...' is that when using 'Send To...' it adds an extra tag called UNIQUEFILEID to every track (according to mp3tag). Not sure if it's relevant, but thought I'd bring it up just in case.
Thanks for that info. Interesting that only 1 method does it. Like you say, it may not be relevant to the issue at hand, but it gives me even more reason not to use Gracenote for auto-tagging, beyond the bad results I got trying to use it.

I don't see the need for such a tag other than to track individual songs, which would be an invasion of privacy, imo. Maybe it is needed during processing and was supposed to have been removed after.

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Old 22nd March 2013, 15:02   #66
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it can happen from the other auto-tag methods just the send-to option is able to trigger it more reliably due to how things are in the process space by using it - so every other auto-tag instance can trigger it (and was seen to do so under testing).

the only update i have is it is a Gracenote issue as best as both sides can confirm but there is no quick fix coming for it (that is sadly a matter which is out of our hands).
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Old 22nd March 2013, 15:38   #67
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the only update i have is it is a Gracenote issue as best as both sides can confirm but there is no quick fix coming for it (that is sadly a matter which is out of our hands).
Could this also mean that we will never know what about WordTicker's files triggered it?

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Old 22nd March 2013, 16:04   #68
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really cannot say either way on that question.
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Old 22nd March 2013, 16:17   #69
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Thanks for that info. Interesting that only 1 method does it. Like you say, it may not be relevant to the issue at hand, but it gives me even more reason not to use Gracenote for auto-tagging, beyond the bad results I got trying to use it.

I don't see the need for such a tag other than to track individual songs, which would be an invasion of privacy, imo. Maybe it is needed during processing and was supposed to have been removed after.
or, maybe it is just the hash they use to ID the DB record they maintain for that song. in other words, I don't think they are trying to track somehow every individual file they tag by "marking it" with a unique ID, (how would they even do that anyway?); what I am guessing they are doing is putting in a code that says "if this code is found in such and such a file, you can use it to find the corresponding record in our DB, provided you have the secret decoder ring"

having said that, I would prefer they didn't do it, but I don't really care if they do. a tag is padded and so my understanding is that adding or subtracting info from a given field doesn't affect filesize, in normal non-art like cases.

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Old 22nd March 2013, 17:04   #70
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or, maybe it is just the hash they use to ID the DB record they maintain for that song. ...
I said that: "Maybe it is needed during processing and was supposed to have been removed after."

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... (how would they even do that anyway?) ...
Very easily. Did you notice the length of that string and all of it is not needed for a number. Decimal is not the only number system. If you just took the characters between the "V" and the "P" and used hexadecimal, that would be an extremely large number.

There are plenty of ways to assign a unique number to every member of an extremely large group.

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Old 22nd March 2013, 17:20   #71
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I said that: "Maybe it is needed during processing and was supposed to have been removed after."
but that's not what i'm saying or suggesting. I think they might want it in there.

you seemed to be suggesting they were doing it to track individual files, like a social security number tracks individual people. and I was saying I think it was just meant to ID what DB record was used to tag the file, which is a totally different intent, and would mean multiple files using that record would have the same code.

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Very easily. Did you notice the length of that string and all of it is not needed for a number. Decimal is not the only number system. If you just took the characters between the "V" and the "P" and used hexadecimal, that would be an extremely large number.

There are plenty of ways to assign a unique number to every member of an extremely large group.
again, not what I meant... yes, numbers are infinite, and a system can be made to track anything, but what I was trying to say is that even if they could tag each file like a SSN, assuming that's their intent which I don't think it is, but even if they could, they then would need some kind of way to monitor the file, ie. read it, afterwards, to do the actual tracking. sure they could sample some p2p or sharing websites or whatnot, but I just don't see why they would or how that would even represent anything meaningful to them?

in cases like this, I find bureaucracy/incompetence is more likely the culprit for weirdness, as opposed to conspiracy, although like I said, I think they actually intend it to be there so they can trace back to the DB record, useful for their own troubleshooting I would think, (like for correcting mistaken records, finding dupes in their DB, etc)

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Old 22nd March 2013, 19:06   #72
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it can happen from the other auto-tag methods just the send-to option is able to trigger it more reliably due to how things are in the process space by using it - so every other auto-tag instance can trigger it (and was seen to do so under testing).

the only update i have is it is a Gracenote issue as best as both sides can confirm but there is no quick fix coming for it (that is sadly a matter which is out of our hands).
What are the odds that Winamp can be made to simply "handle" the supposed-Gracenote-error with, say, an entry for that line item that says "Error" or something and continue on without crashing the feature?

Can we get some love on this?
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Old 22nd March 2013, 20:15   #73
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putting exception handlers around it won't properly work so it can sort of be done to prevent it crashing the process but it's still mangling parts of the process space so it crashing is unfortunately the best thing in this case (it otherwise causes more issues with it just crashing later on). the only recommendation is to not use the feature or just don't do it for files that are known to crash. as i said a few posts back, our hands are tied on getting a solution, sorry.
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Old 25th March 2013, 07:22   #74
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putting exception handlers around it won't properly work so it can sort of be done to prevent it crashing the process but it's still mangling parts of the process space so it crashing is unfortunately the best thing in this case (it otherwise causes more issues with it just crashing later on). the only recommendation is to not use the feature or just don't do it for files that are known to crash. as i said a few posts back, our hands are tied on getting a solution, sorry.
Well, in that case, I guess it's now okay to remove the example files from DropBox?
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Old 25th March 2013, 09:21   #75
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should be fine to do that - i've grabbed ~10 of them so will get that stored somewhere internally.
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Old 27th March 2013, 14:44   #76
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Darren, I have a commandline app that uses the newer SDK to autotag files. Let's try it with that and see if it crashes.

(why am I writing this in the forums instead of over IM. who knows?)
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