Old 24th February 2005, 16:59   #1
PAK-9
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I hate religion

its true you know

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Old 24th February 2005, 17:03   #2
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I agree.
Unless I make my own religion, but without the bases of any other religions, so I guess it wouldn't be a religion.

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Old 24th February 2005, 17:11   #3
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i don't like religion either because i'm not religious, i'm spiritual.

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Old 24th February 2005, 17:12   #4
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Thats sort of semantics, but yes, spirituality is less risible than religion

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Old 24th February 2005, 17:17   #5
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I like religion, and I am proud to be a hindu

But that is just me
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Old 24th February 2005, 17:59   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by MStar
I agree.
Unless I make my own religion, but without the bases of any other religions, so I guess it wouldn't be a religion.
Yeah, I agree with that, people like catholics rather blindly following exactly the same beliefs as so many other people... I think that's s wrong. My opinion is you should form your own beliefs and not follow a template like Christianity.
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Old 24th February 2005, 18:01   #7
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This must be like the 5,000th time this thread has been done.
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Old 24th February 2005, 18:05   #8
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Old 24th February 2005, 18:06   #9
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As an athiest, I don't know if the false sense of hope of the afterlife that relgious people have is bad for them, or greatly comforts them.




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Old 24th February 2005, 18:09   #10
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How can it be bad? Besides the annoyance of some of them trying to shove it in your face and going a bit haywire with it, there's nothing terribly wrong with it. Everything in moderation.
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Old 24th February 2005, 18:12   #11
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I was going to come up with one big-long explanation, but I can sum it up in one word.

Extremists.

We may have billions of people happily comforted by their beliefs, but then we also have the million or so nutters who seem to be spoiling our world at the moment.




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Old 24th February 2005, 18:20   #12
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Well, obviously, everything is bad in extremes.

Sometimes I think I'd rather believe in an afterlife than being unable to decide, because the thought of dying (100% dying, no soul living on stuff) scares the shit out of me.
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Old 24th February 2005, 18:27   #13
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i'm an athiest but always looked towards religions with respect.

I do believe there is more than we can understand but to give it a name like the regligions do ???? that is not my cup of tea.

there is room enough in the world to live according to your religion as long as you don't force it on to others.

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Old 24th February 2005, 19:50   #14
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Imagine a conversation with yourself in this template:
Q) Where did the earth come from?
A) *answer*
Q) Well, where did *answer* come from?
A) *Answer* came from *answer2*
Q) All right, but where did *answer2* come from?
A) I suppose *answer2* must have come from *answe3,* I suppose.

Now, hopefully you're getting my point. If you keep asking the same question, you can keep going further and further back into the sourse of anything. But, from either a religious perspective, or a scientific perspective (It really doesn't make a difference) you ultimately come to this:

-Something has always existed.

or

-Something came from nothing.


Any thoughts?


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Old 24th February 2005, 20:04   #15
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I wonder what religion ever did to you to cause you to hate it? I think perhaps you should rephrase that to "I hate nutballs" every group has them and no body like them but yet they seem to somehow end up representing a big thing that they are in fact the minority of.
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Old 24th February 2005, 20:23   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by KXRM
"I hate nutballs"
During the crusades, most christians were nutballs.

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Old 24th February 2005, 20:30   #17
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Quote:
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During the crusades, most christians were nutballs.
exactly what i wrote earlier, they were forcing their religion onto others and that is the part I hate about people. using the cover of religion to force others to see it just like them.

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Old 24th February 2005, 20:45   #18
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Religion is like a gun. It's only a tool. It's the person (or persons) behind the tool that make the usage good or bad.

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Old 24th February 2005, 20:50   #19
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its almost impossible for christians and many other religions to give leaneancy to other religions. for example: Christianity teaches that the only way to heaven is through accepting jesus christ as your lord and savior. so then, obviously to christians, other religions have got it wrong. Vs. muslims who believe that there can be no other god, that god doesnt have a "partner" (jesus), so no, jesus is just a prophet, not our savior.

Dont think of it as "forcing" so much as saving a retarded kid that is drowning in a pool...he doesnt know what hes doing....( jk btw)
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Old 24th February 2005, 20:51   #20
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So, I just follow one of the many things that are said by Catolicism ...

"Don't do anything to people around you that you don't want them to do to yourself."

Simple and can take away wars and so on away !

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Old 24th February 2005, 21:07   #21
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for example: Christianity teaches that the only way to heaven is through accepting jesus christ as your lord and savior. so then, obviously to christians, other religions have got it wrong.
So obviously you have it wrong. Most Christians don't believe that any more than you do. Only the Fundimentalists. There extremists in all groups. The members of the Church of God believe that all the other Christians are going to Hell because they don't believe in the proper version of Christianity.

Please don't lump us all together. To me, that's like saying all gun owners are criminals. Or all Brits have bad teeth. Or all Irish are terrorists.

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Old 24th February 2005, 21:11   #22
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oh no, sorry, ppl were talking about the crusades. no i cetainly know its just the fundamenalists.
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Old 24th February 2005, 22:04   #23
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Spirituality is everything. Empty words are nothing, following something because you want to be told what is right and wrong is empty.

Religion, plus vigorous question = balance, therefore spirituality and religion work hand in hand, your religion might not be gospel identical, you can believe in a rock, as long as you have a conviction and are able to rationalise the belief, how is your belief any less valid than a Christian or Muslim?

Religion for me is dissected to my interest. It's what it's meant to be in my eyes, a guiding tool, not to what's right and wrong, but the wisdom within it is of interest, I am a fan of philosophy, I regard it as vital to our existance, if we are ignorant to who we are then surely we are living in a life in the shoes of a stranger, and meaning given to our life cannot be pure.

Then again everybody has their own interpretation, people who have a faith and conviction in their beliefs surely must not feel threatened when challenged, as this only highlights the fact their lack of understanding their beliefs can lead them to have their religious foundations undermined.

However a question I do pose it, and excuse me for being general, but for the purpose of the question I suppose we can imagine it to be true. Somebody who is content reading the Heat magazine, or The Sun which is the biggest excuse of a newspaper humanity has ever created, surely is content with simple trivial things in life, therefore does not speicifically, personally require a spiritual level to their existance. Surely then, for somebody to adopt religion, lets say Christianity in their life is not doing themselves any harm if they feel it offers them guidance, a base to work upon in life. Even if they dont particularly understand it or have a hug conviction in it, surely something that argues for good and love cannot be a bad thing. You can argue it's a way for government to suppress the masses, as Marx said "the opium of the people"... however you can also argue we have free will, and we have the choice whether to surrender ourselves to such a conviction.

Religion is evil? Is it or do people use peoples' goodwill and openness to their own advantage? Was Bush justified going into Iraq, part of the axis of evil? Who supplied weapons and helped him with his chemical plants? Who bombed Afghanistan for months before going into Iraq claiming it was a nation of peace?

So all this boils down to one thing. Even if Christianity is historically not true, if Jesus was indeed a Chinese homosexual who put everyone under his spell, is it right to deprive people of this lie that brings them happiness, brings them an alternative to drugs and alcohol? Is faith and hope such a bad thing, to the extent of you wanting and needing to discard of the lies? What are lies, what is truth? Common sense would have suggested that the world was flat hundreds of years ago, abortion was seen as shameful in the past, and still is in many places, easy how we change attitudes, and our truth alters as does common sense eh...

So I end saying, be open in life, don't feel threatened by other people, do the opposite, welcome them to challenge you, to preach, and have faith in yourself. Surely if you trust yourself you will have no fears of being 'converted'. Surely only you have the power to convert yourself. If you respect and love yourself enough, if you know yourself enough then surely you will have a sacred untouchable part of you, which nobody can penetrate or destroy. Cliched as it might sound, sticks and stones may hurt my bons, but words can never hurt me. The truth is they can, but for somebody to know and respect themselves, or at least travel that journey of self-discovery... surely we build a spiritual barrier, a love of life that doesn't allow others to tear us down, because we understand that we are not the bad things people say we are, that nobody understands you better than yourself, so you have the final say.

Sorry for ranting, I'm quite in the mood for spiritual and religious debate just like yesterday at the YMCA having a debate with a 48 year old bloke and this methodist african woman, was so interesting, I loved it so much
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Old 24th February 2005, 22:21   #24
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I don't search for truth, I search for fact. Truth can only be attained through philosophy (and can't be really proven one way or another). Fact is what can and can't be proven.

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Old 24th February 2005, 22:30   #25
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for me truth is fact.

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Old 24th February 2005, 23:13   #26
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but what is fact? how can something spiritual be proven?

surely perception and many other factors, such as instruments which measure are going to factor in what fact is... it's not clear cut as saying that fact is what is right. Surely fact is the conclusion of question and understanding.
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Old 25th February 2005, 02:02   #27
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facts can be proven by reduncancy + scientific method. how else are they proven? i do not see how spirituality can be proven factually. its only remotely fact because of historical context. but even then, through translations, through exaggerations, through oral history, is any of it distorted?


Quote:
Common sense would have suggested that the world was flat hundreds of years ago
actually this was religion that said the earth was flat and the sun moved around it. math proved christianity wrong.
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Old 25th February 2005, 03:41   #28
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but the earth being flat wasn't an important part of christianity. science will be able to prove/disprove some things but science will never be able to prove/disprove everything.

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Old 25th February 2005, 04:13   #29
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Instead of have u been save-------HAVE u been downloaded?
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Old 25th February 2005, 04:28   #30
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@deeder. then the way i see it. when you said 'for me truth is fact' you are really saying 'faith is fact' Because since when has religion EVER been able to prove or disprove anything, w/o faith? for christianity to provide truth, you must have the prerequsite of faith.

'but the earth being flat wasn't an important part of christianity' - once again proving that organized religion makes fiction fact based on faith.
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Old 25th February 2005, 04:59   #31
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i was thinking more of science and such when i said "for me truth is fact". i meant that if i can find something that holds true, it's a fact. wheels are round, it's true and it's also a fact.

i'm going to stop posting in this thread unless i have a good idea of what i'm talking about. so far i think i've confused myself and a couple others.

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Old 25th February 2005, 05:43   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by deeder7001
but the earth being flat wasn't an important part of christianity. science will be able to prove/disprove some things but science will never be able to prove/disprove everything.
I dunno, I think one day (in the faaar distant future), science may be able to (theoretically) explain everything in a fundamental way. We as humans may not believe everything due to our unique perception, but science steadily marches toward explaining more and more every day.
Quote:
Originally posted by deeder7001
wheels are round, it's true and it's also a fact.
Actually wheels aren't perfectly round, nor is anything else in the universe. A perfect circle is a geometric concept; it doesn't actually exist.

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Old 25th February 2005, 05:46   #33
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true but i still say that science will never be able to explain everything.

you know what i ment with the wheels thing i hope.

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Old 25th February 2005, 06:00   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by spaceplay
exactly what i wrote earlier, they were forcing their religion onto others and that is the part I hate about people. using the cover of religion to force others to see it just like them.
Just so we're clear on this, its not only christians that do this. Atheists and other groups do it too.

The best example I can give is, in America the constant push to remove any mention of God or religion from public life. Yes, there are people on the opposite side, trying to force more and more into, but that a debate for another thread. (Specifically, the under God phrase of the pledge.)

This is also a favored tactic of extremely vocal minorities, the "you're a bigot unless you completely agree with us" argument.

I'm not trying to single you out spaceplay. You just happened to have the most quotable statement of this idea made in this thread.

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Old 25th February 2005, 06:00   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by deeder7001
true but i still say that science will never be able to explain everything.

you know what i ment with the wheels thing i hope.
Yeah, I was just giving you a hard time.

I think science will be able to explain things humans don't care about, and science will not be able to explain things like conceptual occurances that happen in the construct of the human mind (or maybe it will, someday). I think once science gives birth to true A.I., you'll be surprised at what can be explained (even to the brink of philosophy).

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Old 25th February 2005, 06:03   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hollow
The best example I can give is, in America the constant push to remove any mention of God or religion from public life. Yes, there are people on the opposite side, trying to force more and more into, but that a debate for another thread. (Specifically, the under God phrase of the pledge.)
The pledge originally didn't have the phrase "under god." It was added as a political statement to go against the "godless" communists that threatened the free world at the time. Since the threat of communism is mostly eradicated, I think it'd be proper to return the pledge to its original state by removing "under god."

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Old 25th February 2005, 06:21   #37
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@deeder. then the way i see it. when you said 'for me truth is fact' you are really saying 'faith is fact' Because since when has religion EVER been able to prove or disprove anything, w/o faith? for christianity to provide truth, you must have the prerequsite of faith.

'but the earth being flat wasn't an important part of christianity' - once again proving that organized religion makes fiction fact based on faith.
I think you're getting your terms mixed up. And don't use fiction. Its belittling to those you're speaking of and makes it sound like your sneering--neither of which are conducive to a good discussion.

What did you mean with that last statement? That religous beliefs are based on faith rather than hard facts?

Its easy to be scornful of things that people have believed. Could you do an experiment to prove that the world is round, or do just take it on faith that everyone isn't lying to you? I suspect that the majority couldn't.

Clark's third law states: "Any sufficiently advanced technolgy is indistingishable from magic." What this actually says is that at some point we have to take the word of someone else, and just believe it. How many people use technology that they couldn't explain how it works? All of us. We merely accept that it will actually do what we were told that it would. This is a belief. Even those things you learn and can declare are facts still have some belief in them. Have you every seen an atom? Admittedly the amount of faith they might take is much less that most religous beliefs, but at the same token, atoms don't have the same consequenses as eternal damnation.

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Old 25th February 2005, 06:23   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by General Geoff
The pledge originally didn't have the phrase "under god." It was added as a political statement to go against the "godless" communists that threatened the free world at the time. Since the threat of communism is mostly eradicated, I think it'd be proper to return the pledge to its original state by removing "under god."
I'm going to have to say that I disagree. Those words belong for historical reason alone now. If you want to talk about this, lets make another thread, rather than derail this one anymore.

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Old 25th February 2005, 12:06   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hollow
Its easy to be scornful of things that people have believed. Could you do an experiment to prove that the world is round, or do just take it on faith that everyone isn't lying to you? I suspect that the majority couldn't.

How many people use technology that they couldn't explain how it works? All of us. We merely accept that it will actually do what we were told that it would. This is a belief. Even those things you learn and can declare are facts still have some belief in them. Have you every seen an atom? Admittedly the amount of faith they might take is much less that most religous beliefs, but at the same token, atoms don't have the same consequenses as eternal damnation.
first off on a side note, you can use simple geometry and shadows on two objects in differnt lines of the world to prove it is round and not flat. but this isnt the core of the discussion...

Most important to my aruguement is the fact that Science can be repeated. If i ever said...hey i dont believe in a scientific fact, i could repeat it. history, on the other, hand is different.


@deeder, hehe sorry for jumping on you.
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Old 25th February 2005, 13:31   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hollow
Clark's third law states: "Any sufficiently advanced technolgy is indistingishable from magic." What this actually says is that at some point we have to take the word of someone else, and just believe it. How many people use technology that they couldn't explain how it works? All of us. We merely accept that it will actually do what we were told that it would. This is a belief. Even those things you learn and can declare are facts still have some belief in them. Have you every seen an atom? Admittedly the amount of faith they might take is much less that most religous beliefs, but at the same token, atoms don't have the same consequenses as eternal damnation.
Yes. Ever heard of a scanning transmission electron microscope (STEM)?

http://www.uq.edu.au/nanoworld/bact17.html



There you go. Atoms.

Here's you some more atoms.




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