Old 10th March 2005, 13:09   #1
Wolfgang
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Making it viewable in all browsers

Last night I made what would be the front page of our Squash Club's website. Unfortunately, as I did it, I only tested in firefox and later on discovered with horror that it didn't display properly in IE. So instead of height:auto I had to define heights (and widths) for everything because IE doesn't seem to stretch divs according to the content of them like firefox does.

Anyway, it's more or less OK except for the navigation bar. I can't work out why it isn't horizontal like in firefox and why the grey background for each box doesn't show on hovering. And why the fuck doesn't it display all the borders in the little buttons at the bottom?

I was also experimenting with making the content's width and height a certain percentage of the user's screen, but failed in IE, so it's all absolute positioning. I hope someone will take the time to help, since I'm at a bit of a loss, especially about the navigation bar. The CSS for it (click on the button at the bottom) is the classes div.menu and a.menulinks.

Any other criticism welcomed. Thanks.

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Old 10th March 2005, 13:21   #2
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Wow 50 megs.... Maybe my acount still on?
Anyway!

Some red text can't read it
And the text "Imperial College Union Squash Club" is almost covert by the table of above


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Old 10th March 2005, 13:48   #3
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It's not a table! They're divs. And what are you viewing it in? The title is not covered by anthything, even in different sized windows, in both IE and FF for me.
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Old 10th March 2005, 13:54   #4
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Did you optimise that for a particular sized screen cos it looks fucked up at 1280 x 1024

'Scuse the crappy screenshot, but you can see what it borkes up...
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Old 10th March 2005, 15:29   #5
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http://www.blackviper.com/ has a similar menu which renders fine. He's using XHTML strict though.

Quote:
How to make things a particular width from the centre, but stop them from shrinking into a mess when the window is made smaller?
From what I can tell, you just make sure things are cool in 800x600 and don't worry about anything smaller.


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Old 10th March 2005, 20:08   #6
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I have to side-scroll in 800x600. Also, some of the text overlaps on the left side. See the screenshot...

Viewed in Mozilla 1.8b1... Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.8b) Gecko/20050217
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Old 10th March 2005, 20:27   #7
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When you put the mouse over the menu "Forum, Committee, Leagues,..." the text disappears and the menu is partially hidden by the paragraph "The ICU Squash Club..." The caption "General Information" looks like it should be below and to the left of the menu choice "Contact", but it is appearing to the left and slightly above "Leagues".

The red links don't show up very well against the black background. Making them bold or larger will help with visibility.

People iron your underwear?????

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Old 10th March 2005, 22:50   #8
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OMG, the suxxor... :P you should try to run that page on more browsers, cause here it looks like crap... everything is floating upon the text, including the textboxes and buttons.

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Old 10th March 2005, 22:53   #9
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Um, forgot to attach the screenie

Forgot the screenie, so here it is.
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Old 10th March 2005, 22:57   #10
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What the heck are you viewing it in Pulse?
Where's your stylesheet?


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Old 10th March 2005, 23:12   #11
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The browser I used

The browser I used was IE6...

And I think the answer is here:

http://tuborg.50megs.com/misc/main.css

where the stylesheet should have been, but isn't
OR! even worse.. the CSS file have CHMODs which deny me to actually download the file... which is even more likely.
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Old 11th March 2005, 03:07   #12
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Pulsedriver - link not working ..external link has been disallowed

I saw this on a css site the other night. It'd I.E. screwing up again and to do with frames and objects and shit like that - how the browser is interpreting the code or summit. Only read through it briefly.

I looked at your page in ie and it's putting scroll bars in the page (800x600). This was the problem mentioned and it's to do with fixed values in the css or something.

Damn I can't find it..anyway try using percentages for your width and height values. Also you really need to tidy up the css code layout it's quite messy.

i.e. this
code:

body {background-color:#333333;
text-align:center;
}

#container0 {position:absolute;
border: 1px solid #8E620B;
top:52px;
background-color: #0A0A0A;
width: 604px;
left:60px;
height:520px;
overflow:hidden;
z-index:0;
}


should look like this
code:

body {
background-color:#333333;
text-align:center;
}

#container0 {
position:absolute;
border: 1px solid #8E620B;
top:52px;
background-color: #0A0A0A;
width: 604px;
left:60px;
height:520px;
overflow:hidden;
z-index:0;
}


Some say it doesn't matter but I reckon it does. and it's easier for you to figure out whats going on. Thats css is extracted from your css btw (saved a copy to look it over).

I also suspect your not closing a div correctly maybe - it also sits align right in ff on 800x 600 for some reason.

Nice design though ..may play with it if I get time and fix it..

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Old 11th March 2005, 03:59   #13
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The screenshot that Jones posted is what mine looks like too. IE 6.0
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Old 11th March 2005, 04:52   #14
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add float:left; to your div.menu style, that'll fix the stacking up in IE.

add background:#333; to the a.menulinks:hover style and you'll get your grey background.
I'm not sure if IE lets you do hovers for non a tags or not, but that seemed to work when I tried it.

HTH
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Old 11th March 2005, 09:22   #15
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Inline styles >_<

BAD BAD BAD!

And your 'main.css' file seems to be a 404.
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Old 11th March 2005, 12:45   #16
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Hmmmm.... what a mess. Thanks for all the replies. I wrote it all in Crimson Editor and the stylesheet looks fine... no inline styles! Didn't look at it in notepad though. I've put it on the Union server now, so no 404 shit: here.

I'll look over it tonight and try and improve it. I've only got FF and IE so I'll only test it on them for now.

This is basically what I want to do:

I want everything to be centred and a percentage of the user's screen width and height. Easy enough I would have thought, but I don't want to use <center> or align:center which allegedly are BAD. To make it look centred is the best thing to do to specify margins as percentages?

Also, how do you make the shrinking stop as you resize the window to make it smaller? I.e. so that you reach a point where the boxes no longer get smaller, they just disappear under the edge of the window getting dragged over it (I hope you know what I mean). min-height and min-width aren't supported very well, even by firefox it seems.

I'll also make the CSS clean in notepad. Thanks again.

edit: as for the ironing of underwear... we're trying to get more people to join the club next year, and we reckon ironing is one of the things people miss the most from home. I don't know anyone who irons.
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Old 11th March 2005, 13:47   #17
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You are using inline styles . style="..." is an inline style.
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Old 11th March 2005, 13:53   #18
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oops. I thought you were referring to the mess in the stylesheet like smeggle pointed out. I'll get rid of them evil things too then.
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Old 11th March 2005, 17:05   #19
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It was a 403 - forbidden, but if that referes to the main.css or the directory itself (if you run apache or similar), I can't say. 404 is returned when the server didn't find any default document.

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Old 11th March 2005, 17:56   #20
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center code if your using css

code:

body {
text-align: center;
}

Or

body {
text-align: left;
}

Or

body {
text-align: right;
}




Or inline

code:

<p style="text-align:center;">Content Here</p>



Though as Ryan says Bad but it works and vaildates at xhtml 1.0/1.1 W3C compliancy standard. I must admit I cheat and use it some times when
code:
text-align: center;
acts up and refuses to work properly.

Very nice layout and design though - I like it. If I get time over the weekend I'll have a look at it and upgrade it to xhtml 1.0 for you. I'll attach it back as a .zip - depends how busy (or bored) I am...

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Old 11th March 2005, 20:22   #21
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Yes, inline works if you are using a single statement for the whole document. There's no need to put it anywhere else, but for order prior caos, using inline is kinda caotic.

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Old 14th March 2005, 16:51   #22
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I improved it and cleaned it up yesterday and started pissing around with some javascript I had. I've uploaded it onto the server again (here). The main thing is it's still fucked up in IE, especially the area at the bottom of the announcements box. Don't know how to fix it. I tried specifying the textarea to be in an absolute position but it doesn't seem to work in relation the the parent object, i.e. the announcements box; it get specified from the top of the body. I suppose it's because nothing else is absolutely positioned (I used floats this time).
If anyone can still be bothered, at the top of the CSS file (which I also cleaned up) are the other issues I can't solve.

Thanks for your interest smeggle, I would really appreciate it if you did that.
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Old 14th March 2005, 17:08   #23
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Haven't looked that much at the css, but you may want to add some

clear: both;

's to some of your rules. This will help keep items from overlapping over eachother.

Also, you may want to add

display:inline;

to the menu items.
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Old 14th March 2005, 21:48   #24
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I see see power of using CSS for some stuff, but I like to put things a way back, not because I don't like to use new things, but as for good ol' HTML it's a sureshot, and if I feel I don't need CSS or I think CSS could mezz it all up, I'll leave it. I regularly use it as accessory, not something I base my markup on. Using it for coloring stuff, but I have taken a look at it and I know CSS could do much pretty easy, and the simplicity is nice, except that I don't get the same result in all browsers... but that isn't somthing new for someone who script with javascript... :P

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Old 16th March 2005, 14:40   #25
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Your site looks ok to me in Opera. My advice is to forget about IE. If users want to see your site, then they can use Opera or Mozilla. You can add a "<!-- if [IE] " thing to make IE ignore your CSS, and just present the HTML, so it's at least still usable, if plain.

CSS isn't an alternative to HTML, it's a way to seperate presentation from structure. Your HTML should look fine without CSS, if a little boring.

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Old 17th March 2005, 09:44   #26
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I agree 100% on the HTML/CSS that your page should look okay without CSS if a little boring... but

you shouldn't forget any broweser and I just laugh by authors who use this type of message if you enter their site with the wrong browser: "This page cannot be viewed with Netscape/IE" messages...

BUT if you follow the markup as acceptable in view with any CSS it should look okay in any browser, no matter if the user run a custom local CSS document instead of original one.

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Old 17th March 2005, 16:07   #27
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I had thought of something similar to xzxzzx's idea. Just make two separate CSS files, one for good browsers and one for IE. Have a script that detects what browser the user has and load the relevant CSS. I'd rather not have no CSS at all, since I agre with PulseDriver in that just because people use IE I shouldn't alienate them. Also, unfortunately most people will actually be using IE so I have to cater for them.
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Old 17th March 2005, 16:49   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by PulseDriver
BUT if you follow the markup as acceptable in view with any CSS it should look okay in any browser, no matter if the user run a custom local CSS document instead of original one.
No. IE doesn't render web pages correctly, so pages often won't look "ok" at all.

[edit]Wolfgang, and you don't need to use a script to detect the browser at all. Just use IE's non-standard CSS conditional comments.[/edit]

Freedom of speech is the basic freedom of humanity. When you've lost that, you've lost everything.
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Old 17th March 2005, 16:55   #29
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yeah, for instance when you say that a border is to be dotted, it comes out dashed. It doesn't support max-height or min-width (and the other combinations) and doesn't do PNG properly.

Funny thing is though, it seems like IE does padding by pushing whatever it is away from the borders of the parent object. Which I think is the dright way. However, Firefox it seems just makes the parent a bit bigger to accommodate this padding.
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Old 17th March 2005, 17:21   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wolfgang
Funny thing is though, it seems like IE does padding by pushing whatever it is away from the borders of the parent object. Which I think is the dright way. However, Firefox it seems just makes the parent a bit bigger to accommodate this padding.
This is known as the IE "box-model". IE does it the wrong way. This is the right way:

http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/box.html

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Old 17th March 2005, 17:25   #31
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ooooooooooooo. very nice. thanks.
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Old 17th March 2005, 17:55   #32
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Even if IE is wrong, the most used browser atm is IE so why move in minefields, when you don't have to when you're making webpages. :P

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Old 17th March 2005, 19:57   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by PulseDriver
Even if IE is wrong, the most used browser atm is IE so why move in minefields, when you don't have to when you're making webpages. :P
Because standards...

...

I can't even answer that. I don't know where to begin.

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Old 17th March 2005, 20:04   #34
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What I ment was, why use methods that makes it look like crap when you don't need to, I didn't say that you should make dual code for IE/others, I mean use methods that looks okay with both.

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Old 18th March 2005, 15:38   #35
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wow, I'd never heard of conditional comments. Cool. Amazing how shit IE is. It doubles margins.

[edit]What's better, use the comment to make IE load a separate stylesheet, or make different classes for IE and everything else in the CSS and make comments linking to the IE-only CSS?[/edit]

[edit]I hope you know what I mean[/edit]
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Old 18th March 2005, 15:57   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by PulseDriver
Even if IE is wrong, the most used browser atm is IE so why move in minefields, when you don't have to when you're making webpages. :P
Because you can write the site in a fraction of the time, have it laid out in a semantic way which will boost your search engine rating and data-mineability, have a printable version of your page without having a seperate page, have a version of your page which displays well on mobile devices without having to change the page, have a page which is more accessible to blind and partially-sighted users, and be able to change the layout of your page as much as you like without having to rewrite a single line of HTML. Plus other things.

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Old 18th March 2005, 18:02   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wolfgang
[edit]What's better, use the comment to make IE load a separate stylesheet, or make different classes for IE and everything else in the CSS and make comments linking to the IE-only CSS?[/edit]
Don't make changes to the HTML for IE, make changes only to the CSS. I would make a seperate stylesheet for IE.

Freedom of speech is the basic freedom of humanity. When you've lost that, you've lost everything.
1\/\/4y 34|<$p4y 1gp4y 33714y, 0d4y 0uy4y? | Roses are #FF0000; Violets are #0000FF; chown -R ${YOU} ~/base
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Old 18th March 2005, 18:53   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by zootm
Because you can write the site in a fraction of the time, have it laid out in a semantic way which will boost your search engine rating and data-mineability, have a printable version of your page without having a seperate page, have a version of your page which displays well on mobile devices without having to change the page, have a page which is more accessible to blind and partially-sighted users, and be able to change the layout of your page as much as you like without having to rewrite a single line of HTML. Plus other things.
Yes, of course, I didn't say you were supposed to write HTML only, but xzxzzx refered to pages that really looked like crap using a certain style with CSS (never seen any yet which follows the standards) so it must be a rare occation, but if there are certain styles that makes it look like crap, then I ask, is there no other way to make this look okay in ALL browsers?

Can you give me an example of correct w3c standard page which look like crap xzxzzx?

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Old 18th March 2005, 19:52   #39
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The main page of CSS Zen Garden doesn't load the menubar in IE, is the first thing that springs to mind. You have to remember that a lot of sites have been specifically hacked to work in IE, where they wouldn't need to be otherwise.

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Old 18th March 2005, 20:05   #40
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i see opera finally now has the menubar in zen CSS garden. IE is still poop.
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