Old 4th November 2004, 02:38   #1
Kickboy12
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Why Bush Won...

The republicans may have won the White House, but once again California shows their independence and hate for the central-american ideal of Evangelist Christians -- Stem Cell Research has passed in California, with a bond of $300 million a year for 10 years.

Bush didn't win because of Iraq, or any other real important issue. Here's what happened (Please note I'll be highly generalizing from this point on):

The liberal/Democratic ("blue") states on the west coast and north east of America based their votes differently than Central America ("red" states). The blue states that voted for Kerry voted for the following issues: Iraq, Economy, Education, and Health Care. The red states voted on the issue of morality, based on religion. The numbers don't lie.

The voter turn out was about $114 million, which is lower than the projected $120 million which was based on voter registrations. What group of people didn't show up to vote? It was the young people (Ages 18-24).

However, this election there was a turnout of a highly unexpected group of people -- Evangelist Christians, who did NOT vote in the 2000 election. These people where mainly based in the 11 states that had Gay Marriage on the ballot, and they obviously voted for Bush because he "Shared their moral views". Ohio was the tie-breaker in this election, last election it was Florida. If Ohio didn't put Gay Marriage on the ballot, Bush wouldn't have won that state.

I continue to hear conservatives call liberals "moral less". I don't see how we are moral less. Liberals are more scientific, California's results are an example of that. Conservatives are more religious, and think everyone should be constrained to a single point of view, and allow no room for experimentation that could ultimately save lives.

I think Mark Wardlaw said it best (This is an email forwarded to me today):

Quote:
It's tempting to go over the top and to call this the worst night of my life. Once again, the majority of Californians have been reminded that our opinions are moot and that our votes are irrelevant in national elections, even though we live in the most populous state and wield the greatest economic clout. Once again, the state that should play the biggest role in casting electoral votes has been reduced to an understudy in the baffling power play that has seen rural America move to the center stage of American politics.

However, I can't really dwell on how I feel tonight. Sadly, the pain and abandonment I'm experiencing at this moment will pale in comparison to what lies in store for most Americans during the next four years. It would be easy to say that they've done it to themselves and that they'll deserve what they get. Nonetheless, I think we can expect inevitable and profound changes that are certain to have a major impact on the next several generations of Americans.

Ironically, President Bush's most significant support comes from Americans who have gained nothing from him and his policies. He enjoys overwhelming support from the ordinary (read: lower middle class and underclass) citizens of the "red" states. To put it bluntly, these people are the cannon fodder in his senseless war. They are the people whose veterans' benefits he wants to cut, those who cannot afford health insurance and those whose social security benefits he wants to plunder. What are we to make of a citizenry so indifferent to these facts that they would reward an incompetent president with four more years in the oval office?

Throughout the campaign, John Edwards spoke of "two Americas." He described an America of a few "haves" and an overwhelming number of "have-nots." While I'll be the first to admit that, in a global sense, very few Americans truly are "have nots," I also recognize that the gap between the rich and poor in our country is getting wider each day. This disturbing trend is only one example, in my opinion, of the "two Americas" Senator Edwards spoke about. Here are others:

One America is the west coast and the northeast, and the other America is the rest of the country.

One America is where people read, think for themselves and gather information from a variety of sources. The other America gets its information from Fox News and at church.

One America believes that taxes are the price of freedom and civilization. The other America believes that taxes are evil and that we should keep more of our own money regardless of the resulting deterioration of our infrastructure and services.

One America believes that gay people are entitled to all of the rights and privileges of straight people and that it's nobody's business what any of us does in our own lives. The other America believes that gay people have chosen a deviant lifestyle and that granting legal rights to their "selfish hedonism" would threaten the "sanctity" marriage.

One America believes that religion and prayer are private matters that do not belong in school or the workplace. The other America believes that (Christian) religion and prayer should be forced on all of us.

One America believes that it is a woman's right to choose and that the government has absolutely no jurisdiction in this private matter. The other America favors legislation that will imposes their sense of morality on every woman.

It is clear to me that rural America has re-elected this president based on narrow, so-called moral and religious "values." I fear for our gay siblings, relatives and friends who will endure a sustained assault on their rights, dignity and humanity. I fear for our children who will be saddled with an obscene national debt that will severely restrict their prosperity and security. I fear for poor women who will be forced into back-alley abortions.

Most of all, I'm angry. We're a divided nation with huge cultural divides. I'm sick of hearing that, as a liberal democrat, I have no values. I will not rally behind this president. I will be one of the shrill voices constantly saying, "I told you so!" Every time someone complains about the economy, gas prices, more deaths in Iraq, no viable exit plan from this war, etc. I will say with pride, "I didn't vote for this fraud!"

Thanks for indulging me.

Mark
Pick your battle. Keep in mind -- Science has never been proven wrong.

[@imho] man
[@imho] I had dreams about unit testing last night :-(
[@sim`a] i have nightmares about syntax errors, whats your point
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Old 4th November 2004, 06:29   #2
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Great email. Thank you, I feel the same way that is why I live in mexico now!
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Old 4th November 2004, 07:30   #3
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Quote:
Science has never been proven wrong.
er? you sure about that one?

science is all about reform after reform. it continually proves itself wrong.
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Old 4th November 2004, 07:59   #4
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and people say conservatives are close minded.
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Old 4th November 2004, 08:09   #5
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Re: Why Bush Won...

Quote:
Originally posted by Kickboy12
The liberal/Democratic ("blue") states on the west coast and north east of America based their votes differently than Central America ("red" states). The blue states that voted for Kerry voted for the following issues: Iraq, Economy, Education, and Health Care. The red states voted on the issue of morality, based on religion. The numbers don't lie.
Indeed they don't.

People who are voting because of real issues that really matter (war, economy, education, health care) are living in the real world. These are the things that matter.

People who vote as their church tells them, because of things like gay marriage and abortion are backwards, stupid sheep.

Why?

Agree with the iraq war or not, hundreds of thousands have died. Why is this insignificant in the face of greatly fewer fetuses?

What business of theirs to tell gay people what they can or can't do? I know that the bible teaches of tollerence towards othere so why can't they tollerate civil unions between people they'll never meet?

I'm not bashing people for voting Bush, i'm bashing people for not thinking about the real issues before voting.

Sheep I tell you, sheep.

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Old 4th November 2004, 08:16   #6
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Re: Re: Why Bush Won...

Quote:
Originally posted by will

What business of theirs to tell gay people what they can or can't do? I know that the bible teaches of tollerence towards othere so why can't they tollerate civil unions between people they'll never meet?

I'm not bashing people for voting Bush, i'm bashing people for not thinking about the real issues before voting.

Sheep I tell you, sheep.
who is the sheep? Because people disagree with you they are sheep? at any rate the issue wasn't about civil unions but about marriage. Their views are obviously going to be under-represented in these forums.
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Old 4th November 2004, 08:22   #7
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[edit]re: will

But you are talking from a certain point of view. You are a humanist, and naturally, you believe that these issues should be our highest concerns. That isn't the republican/conservative way of thinking.

It's not as if they aren't thinking about it before they vote, it's just a completely different worldview.

Also, you claim that people throw away their vote because of what the church tells them to do. Those people have a firm belief in the church, and they genuinly think that the opinions of the church are the right ones, and the only ones which should be considered.

In my opinion (and yours obviously) that way of thinking is just plain fucked. But its the plain spirit of democracy that the beliefs of the majority should be listened to.

The way I see it, democracy just doesn't work. If the people can become so slanted (through groupthink or affirmative reinforcement or whatever you want to call it) then surely someone has to intervene. If you can have an entire country's population can have their ethics as mixed up as the US, then surely their intentions shouldn't be carried through.

blah...

[/sociology rant]
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Old 4th November 2004, 08:35   #8
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Re: Re: Re: Why Bush Won...

Quote:
Originally posted by KXRM
who is the sheep? Because people disagree with you they are sheep? at any rate the issue wasn't about civil unions but about marriage. Their views are obviously going to be under-represented in these forums.
People are sheep who voted based upon what they were told at church.

People are not sheep who actually considered the matters at hand before voting.

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Old 4th November 2004, 08:46   #9
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This one I believe fully since the said by Bush supporting the ban on gay marriage many churches expecially Catholic and Protestants were told to vote for Bush. He was the 'more moral one' according to one local group. They also mentioned how the religions rural vote was one the Bush campaign went out heavily for this year.

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Old 4th November 2004, 08:48   #10
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i voted on the matter at hand and felt that kerry wasn't going cut it, I don't go to church so what does that make me? Plus I guess I missed the propaganda boat on the whole church beliefs is the only reason people voted.
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Old 4th November 2004, 08:50   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by KXRM
i voted on the matter at hand and felt that kerry wasn't going cut it, I don't go to church so what does that make me? Plus I guess I missed the propaganda boat on the whole church beliefs is the only reason people voted.
Quote:
Originally posted by will
I'm not bashing people for voting Bush, i'm bashing people for not thinking about the real issues before voting.
Therefore, you're alright in my book

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Old 4th November 2004, 09:07   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by KXRM
i voted on the matter at hand and felt that kerry wasn't going cut it, I don't go to church so what does that make me? Plus I guess I missed the propaganda boat on the whole church beliefs is the only reason people voted.
It wasn't really church beliefs, it was this:

Quote:
The amendments won, often by huge margins, in Arkansas, Georgia, Kentucky, Michigan, Mississippi, Montana, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Ohio, Utah and Oregon -- the one state where gay-rights activists hoped to prevail. The bans won by a 3-to-1 margin in Kentucky and Georgia, 3-to-2 in Ohio, and 6-to-1 in Mississippi.

The Ohio measure, considered the broadest of the 11 because it barred any legal status that "intends to approximate marriage," gathered equal support from men and women, blacks and whites.
It's already been mentioned that had the measure in Ohio not made it on the ballot Kerry would have likely won but because the same people who voted for it were also Bush supporters it encouraged more to go to the polls and in turn pushed up Bush's votes expecially in the rural counties.

Might just be BS, but it makes sense since almost everyone of the states with a gay marriage referendum was also won by Bush.
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Old 4th November 2004, 09:08   #13
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Quote:
Orginally posted by will

Originally posted by KXRM
I'm not bashing people for voting Bush, i'm bashing people for not thinking about the real issues before voting.
huh? you said that! not KXRM.
:P
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Old 4th November 2004, 09:21   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by MegaRock
It wasn't really church beliefs, it was this:



It's already been mentioned that had the measure in Ohio not made it on the ballot Kerry would have likely won but because the same people who voted for it were also Bush supporters it encouraged more to go to the polls and in turn pushed up Bush's votes expecially in the rural counties.

Might just be BS, but it makes sense since almost everyone of the states with a gay marriage referendum was also won by Bush.
Sounds coincidental to me. I can agree that those with conservitive values probably had more of a motivation to vote then those who didn't but you can't blame the conservitive or traditional valued people for that. More people should be voting, but yet only half the nation voiced it's opinion, so there is still an aweful lot of apathy. If you want to blame anyone blame those who sat on the couch or have the opinion that there vote means nothing. Apathy is the real problem.
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Old 4th November 2004, 10:09   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by sidd
huh? you said that! not KXRM.
:P
Yeah, fixed. Copy and paste forgetfullness.

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Old 4th November 2004, 13:04   #16
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Quote:
Once again, the majority of Californians have been reminded that our opinions are moot and that our votes are irrelevant in national elections, even though we live in the most populous state and wield the greatest economic clout. Once again, the state that should play the biggest role in casting electoral votes has been reduced to an understudy in the baffling power play that has seen rural America move to the center stage of American politics.


Ironically, President Bush's most significant support comes from Americans who have gained nothing from him and his policies. He enjoys overwhelming support from the ordinary (read: lower middle class and underclass) citizens of the "red" states. To put it bluntly, these people are the cannon fodder in his senseless war. They are the people whose veterans' benefits he wants to cut, those who cannot afford health insurance and those whose social security benefits he wants to plunder..
Hmmmm, does this guy honestly think that because California is the biggest state with the most electoral votes that they
are superior to all the other states?

If you look at his logic, if you live in a one of the "red" states, then you are automatically beneath him, socially and financially.

I believe this would be profiling. Yes, profiling. Economic profiling. He may of well just came out and called everyone a redneck if they live in the underpriveledged "red" south.

I was trying to be subjective on the post until I read the email.

I give 'Mark' credit though for covering his condecending tone with some flowery bullshit.

and /edit..I live in a "blue" state.

Last edited by Blayze; 4th November 2004 at 13:46.
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Old 4th November 2004, 16:00   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by MegaRock
This one I believe fully since the said by Bush supporting the ban on gay marriage many churches expecially Catholic ... were told to vote for Bush.
That is a fucking outright lie.

The official policy of the Catholic Church, was published in pamphlets and distributed after service and was spoken of in the pulpit was this:

Every Catholic has the moral obligation to vote. The Catholic Chuch can not tell you how to vote. It can only offer guidelines on choosing the candidate to vote for. In choosing a candidate, do not select one or another based on religious background. Rather choose the one that best aligns himself with the teachings of the Catholic Church.

This is not a direct quote, because I don't have the booklet in front of me. If I still have one, I can scan it for your reading enjoyment.

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Old 4th November 2004, 16:30   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by CaboWaboAddict
Every Catholic has the moral obligation to vote. The Catholic Chuch can not tell you how to vote. It can only offer guidelines on choosing the candidate to vote for. In choosing a candidate, do not select one or another based on religious background. Rather choose the one that best aligns himself with the teachings of the Catholic Church.
And these guidelines are "vote for the guy who doesn't support gay marriage." It's practically the same as saying "vote for Bush."
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Old 4th November 2004, 16:50   #19
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see below...damn browser...


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Old 4th November 2004, 16:50   #20
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Ok lets lay this to rest...not ALL Republicans are homophobic..the Democrats seem to have a few of their own as well.

Take a look at the below stats...

A breakout of each state that had the measure to vote to all same sex marriages.

Listed is each state, how their final turn out voted (r or d), the percentage of the vote FOR the winning party and
then the percentage of voters that voted against the same sex marriage ammendment.

STATE R or D Percentage Percent against same sex
__________________________________________________________

Arkansas R 54 75
Georgia R 59 76
Kentucky R 60 75
Michigan D 51 59
Mississippi R 60 86
Montana R 59 67
N. Dakota R 63 73
Oklahoma R 66 76
Ohio R 51 62
Utah R 71 66
Oregon D 52 57


Also, its been known that regardless of what Portland did in the last year with the same sex marriages, oregon has a history of defeating gay rights measures.

I don't see how you can say all the republicans did this to the Gay Community. Quite honestly, I believe that it is a victory for the fact that they are able to even bring this issue to the table. Just like every other minority group, there are battles to fight and there is not going to be any easy victories.

And before anyone slaps the homophobic tag in me, I would have voted for same sex marriages.

and just for gp, here is where I gathered my info.
Basic facts, nothing more.

http://www.stateline.org/stateline/?...&columns=false

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6291779/&CM=elexbantop&CE=full

/edit dammit I had it spaced in my post but its not coming out that way...hope you can understand it
/edit AGAIN!!! wtf?? how did that post get up there when I hit to edit it? UGH!

Last edited by Blayze; 4th November 2004 at 17:12.
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Old 4th November 2004, 17:32   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wolfgang
And these guidelines are "vote for the guy who doesn't support gay marriage." It's practically the same as saying "vote for Bush."
Why would they say that? Kerry is Catholic, why wouldn't they say vote for him?

Everyone is looking for some conspiracy. Why? The simple fact of the matter is this: If there were so many people in America that wanted Kerry, where were they Tuesday?

Either they:
didn't care enough to vote
-or-
didn't vote for Kerry

Simple as that.

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Old 4th November 2004, 17:34   #22
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Yes, you're right about the options as to why they didn't vote for Kerry.

Quote:
Why would they say that? Kerry is Catholic, why wouldn't they say vote for him?
Simple, because Bush opposes gay marriage and Kerry doesn't.
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Old 4th November 2004, 19:05   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by CaboWaboAddict
That is a fucking outright lie.

...In choosing a candidate, do not select one or another based on religious background. Rather choose the one that best aligns himself with the teachings of the Catholic Church...
Always contradicting yourself.

Quote:
Originally posted by CaboWaboAddict
Why would they say that? Kerry is Catholic, why wouldn't they say vote for him?

Everyone is looking for some conspiracy...
Try the 2000 elections and the successfull rigging that they had of florida. I would say they were just more successfull in covering up this time.

Mark my words the world is going to burn because of that war mongering peice of monkey spunk.
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Old 4th November 2004, 19:06   #24
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Regardless, this is a moot point because I was there. I got the pamphlet, heard the sermon and they didn't tell anyone who to vote for. They said to learn the position of the candidates and vote accordingly.

There is nothing wrong with this. A person should vote for the candidate that has a similar outlook to their own.

I don't understand why so many people are grasping at straws. Just because things don't go as they expected or desired, doesn't mean there is a conspiracy.

It could simply mean that the majority of the people felt strongly enough to re-elect Bush.

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Old 4th November 2004, 19:08   #25
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Just another reason to stay in Mexico. I don't want to live with ignorant fat americans anymore.
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Old 4th November 2004, 19:09   #26
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Originally posted by kunzi_n
Always contradicting yourself.
Please enlighten me as to how I contradicted myself.

Maybe you need to re-read the thread.

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Old 4th November 2004, 19:29   #27
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Man you cannot be reasoned with. You need to read the thread dude.

Let me spell it out for you since you don't get it on your own. You said the church never said vote for the guy with the same religious background as you, Wolfgang said that the church said, vote for the 'guidelines' that align with the churches beliefs. You responded by asking why wouldn't they say vote for Kerry he's catholic.

How is that not contradicting yourself.

By the way you will never be enlightened, you go to church. In my experience people who 'need' to go to church can't think for themselfs, that is why they don't just worship at home.
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Old 4th November 2004, 19:35   #28
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the problem here is that dems expected to win. No one was really supporting Bush as much as Kerry in the media from what i could tell. Dems were yelling the loudest during campaigning, so silence was taken as submission. Now that that hasn't happened it's an immediate conspiracy, rigging or name calling and threats to leave the country. Get a grip! I just hope that you guys calling americans morons are referring to those who didn't vote.

Quote:
Originally posted by kunzi_n
By the way you will never be enlightened, you go to church. In my experience people who 'need' to go to church can't think for themselfs, that is why they don't just worship at home.
what a completely baseless comment/insult. I am getting tired of people referring to church goers as sheep. You are speaking about maybe 25% of them.
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Old 4th November 2004, 19:45   #29
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If that makes you feel better about it than keep telling yourself that.

And btw, I didn't think the dems were going to win with all of the coruption that is running rampant in the states.

And no the people who voted for bush are not the morons, the people that believe that bush actualy won with fair play are morons.
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Old 4th November 2004, 19:53   #30
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I know what I wrote...

My point was since Kerry is Catholic, if the Catholic Church were going to endorse someone, why would it not be him?

It was not a contradiction of anything I stated. I was posing a rhetorical question to him.

The Catholic Church did not endorse anyone. It doesn't have a policy of "vote for the guy who doesn't support gay marriage." In fact, the stated position was that each person had to weigh the position of each candidate on all issues, because each of the candidates did not conform to the Catholic Church's viewpoint on everything.

off topic: I see no reason that you need to belittle me for going to church. Maybe you are so uncomfortable with yourself that you can't stand someone who is.

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Old 4th November 2004, 19:59   #31
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I don't get you. I spelled it out and you still dance around the issues and use your big words to sound smart the only thing that is apperent to me is that you have a dictionary.

You have me all wrong man. I am having the time of my life and I love myself (maybe I should stop or I'll go blind). But whatever makes you feel better.

And if you are so comfortable why do you go to church?
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Old 4th November 2004, 20:02   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by kunzi_n
And no the people who voted for bush are not the morons, the people that believe that bush actualy won with fair play are morons.
and here comes the conspiracy theories, like clockwork.
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Old 4th November 2004, 20:05   #33
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Why would I theorize it would be a waste of my time.

I have learned that conspiracy is a thing that few will admit. Why will they start now just because I posted in this thread?
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Old 4th November 2004, 20:09   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by kunzi_n
I don't get you. I spelled it out and you still dance around the issues and use your big words to sound smart the only thing that is apperent to me is that you have a dictionary.

You have me all wrong man. I am having the time of my life and I love myself (maybe I should stop or I'll go blind). But whatever makes you feel better.

And if you are so comfortable why do you go to church?
I'm not dancing around anything. You said I contradicted myself. I explained that it was a rhetorical question. I'm not trying to sound smart nor do I have a dictionary handy. I'm sorry if you don't understand what I meant. The question I asked was not meant to be answered. I said it to make a point. This is like explaining a joke, it makes it not funny.

You don't want to go blind... not fun!

Because I believe.

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Old 4th November 2004, 20:12   #35
Jay
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oh i dunno, I would find it easier to believe that all the voters who would have backed Kerry in the mid western and southern states fell asleep at the wheel and decided their vote didn't count. I got this crazy idea that the easiest and more likely theory is probably more accurate.
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Old 4th November 2004, 20:23   #36
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Well, let me shoot a hole in the conspiracy theory right now...
Quote:
Kerry and his advisers also rejected the possibility of legal challenges to the Ohio vote. About 70 percent of ballots in the state were cast using the same punch cards that led to the Florida recount in 2000.
Reference...
How Kerry reached decision - MSNBC Article

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Old 4th November 2004, 21:04   #37
kunzi_n
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Quote:
Originally posted by CaboWaboAddict
...
Because I believe.
So you have to go somewhere to believe? Sounds pretty insecure to me.
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Old 4th November 2004, 21:11   #38
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so all you got left is personal attacks against CaboWaboAddict? How does this bolster your opinion again? oh wait it doesn't.
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Old 4th November 2004, 21:36   #39
kunzi_n
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Just a question because I honestly don't understand.

Why would I want to 'bolster' my opinion?
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Old 4th November 2004, 21:39   #40
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I think it is pretty ironic that voters who supported the guy who instgated the death of 100 thousand civilians in Iraq based on a falsehood said they did it because they supported "moral values".

We are through the looking glass now. CNN reports that the Cheshire Cat's head was seen floating over Cleveland.
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