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Old 17th March 2004, 20:52   #81
bgesley
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People procreated before marriage =/

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Old 18th March 2004, 10:34   #82
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Yeah, but with the technology available to us now, it's technically possible for gay people to procreate, too. All you have to do is take an embryo, remove the existing genetic material, and insert the genes from the two parents. in the case of two women, this would make a girl (XX), but in the case of two guys, it wouldn't exactly work 100% of the time, 'coz there's a 1 in 4 chance there would be a (YY) match, making the foetus unviable. But it's still possible for a complete genetic offspring of homosexual people to exist, so long as they can find someone to bear the child to term for them. So gay people CAN procreate, it's just much, much harder and more expensive. And they miss the fun part of the process.
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Old 18th March 2004, 18:01   #83
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Yeah, it's scientifically possible to create offspring from gay people. I don't think anyone does it, however.

Freedom of speech is the basic freedom of humanity. When you've lost that, you've lost everything.
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Old 18th March 2004, 19:22   #84
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1) there are homeless kids up for adoption.

2) there are gay couples that could adopt them.

I wonder if anypone here can figure out my point....
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Old 18th March 2004, 21:14   #85
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Someone with YY chromosomes would be INCREDIBLY aggressive. It'd be very hard to raise a child that way. He's practically bound for military black ops and going in to villages and killing everyone with a blade of grass.

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Old 19th March 2004, 03:08   #86
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Quote:
Originally posted by bgesley
Someone with YY chromosomes would be INCREDIBLY aggressive. It'd be very hard to raise a child that way. He's practically bound for military black ops and going in to villages and killing everyone with a blade of grass.
I would imagine that someone with YY wouldn't be viable, and would die long before it became a fetus.

Freedom of speech is the basic freedom of humanity. When you've lost that, you've lost everything.
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Old 19th March 2004, 03:08   #87
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Well you could be XYY

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Old 19th March 2004, 04:26   #88
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Re: Where are you now, people who claim marriage as sacred?

Quote:
Originally posted by dlinkwit27
This was brought up in an article in my college newspaper, and it made sense.

So many people are against gay marriage because marriage is a sacred ritual between two people who love each other and all that, but where are you now? Brittney Spears just went and married a friend on a whim, and filed for an annulment not 48 hours later. Where are you people? Is this not a mockery of the sacred-ness of marriage? Why is there no protest against her on this, yet two people of the same sex, who truly love one another, meet nothing but resistance when they try to make a permanent commitment to one another?
I was thinking that since I have to do that for a mock legislature kind of thing in Debate. It was for 55 hours, and he got a really good payoff, too. Another county in oregon allows gay marriage, so the fight for a constitutional amendment against it might have an opposition. The Netherlands approved it for all people and it has just normalized, not like the San Fransisco Fiasco. In New York CLERGY HAVE BEEN ARRESTED FOR PERFORMING CEREMONIES! That is the most fucked up thing in the world! Being bi(more chances for a date ), If I find the one and they happen to be the same sex as I am, and I can't get married, I would be distraught! Of course, I am Catholic, so I wouldn't be able to do that anyways. The only way to make a proper argument is to put yourself in the gay couples's shoes.

Furthermore, in a society where married people have beem murdering, lying to, beating up, mentally abusing, and cheating on their spouses, the only way to preserve the sanctity of marriage in this day and age is to not ban same sex marriages, but maybe we need to have a constitutional amendment banning marriages of all kinds. Since clergy were arrested,. and clergy are members of the church, thus marriage can be seen as a religiosly based ritual. The reason the church of england was formed was because of MARRIAGE, thus we cannot ban anything about marriage b/c it violates the freedom of religion.
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Old 19th March 2004, 04:29   #89
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Oops. Spent a bit too long working on that. missed out on all the action.
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Old 19th March 2004, 04:33   #90
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You did bring up a good point of info tho. I had no idea clergy were being arrested. Makes me wonder if we should spark a debate about confessionals being a possible obstruction of justice.

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Old 19th March 2004, 04:37   #91
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Some have been arrested for that, too.
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Old 19th March 2004, 04:40   #92
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I have heard from a friend that sometimes priests are thrown in jail because they won't divulge ino obtained in confession
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Old 19th March 2004, 05:47   #93
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Quote:
Originally posted by bgesley
Well you could be XYY
That's true, but my research on the Internet finds that besides an increased level of activity, a higher height, and an increased chance of "learning problems", XYY children are generally "normal".

Freedom of speech is the basic freedom of humanity. When you've lost that, you've lost everything.
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Old 19th March 2004, 12:42   #94
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Quote:
Originally posted by xzxzzx
That's true, but my research on the Internet finds that besides an increased level of activity, a higher height, and an increased chance of "learning problems", XYY children are generally "normal".
That's true, sometimes they cannot even be distinguished from normal XY men, it would be worse if there was a XXY sortiment of sex Chromosomes, this would make the male sterile (Klinefelter syndrome), YY, as you already stated, would be lethal and not develop into an Embryo mainly because there are many informations important for living encoded on the X Chromosome that the Y Chromosome doesn't have, that's why every human being has one to live. However, a woman can live with only one X chromosome (called X0), but will be sterile and breasts usually don't develop during adolescense(Turner syndrome).

Hope I made everything clear for further discussion Just had to learn that anyway for my college classes, what a coincidence!

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Old 25th March 2004, 05:55   #95
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The way human gentics and the sexes are set up it seems that the Y chromosome would deteriarate through succesive reproduction. Since, to my knowledge, matching chromosomes swap genes during reproduction and the Y chromosome doesn't have another Y to swap with. Man its been forever since I had biology so my facts may be tainted by time.

If you are a lesbain couple I'm sure you would be more than willing to bear your love child.

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Old 25th March 2004, 18:33   #96
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I don't think that is very safe. Try adoption. The pope himself said a family works by devoting themselves to eachother, so if two people of the same sex who have a child are a family, why can't they get married? according to what the pope said, the couple would fit the description of parents. And since people would want to go through all that just to have a child, why not just let couples have children if they can support the child? Throughout school, I hear people call other people "fag". In my head, I am telling them to say, "Yeah, and what makes such an insult? Maybe them should start calling you hetero!"
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Old 26th March 2004, 06:34   #97
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I don't see anything wrong with adoption. Concerns about homosexuals couldn't possibly outweigh the child being in an abusive family, or an "orphanarium".

Freedom of speech is the basic freedom of humanity. When you've lost that, you've lost everything.
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Old 27th March 2004, 00:41   #98
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you misunderstand me. I am for adoption.

P.S. to xzxzzx:is that a quote from Ayn Rand in your sig?
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Old 27th March 2004, 00:47   #99
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Some peoples underlying concerns are that gay parents would raise gay children. Because all straight parents raise straight children right.

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Old 27th March 2004, 06:01   #100
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Shhh, don't bring that to light Raz! Then they might experience a rare, spooky moment of self realisation where suddenly they know what obnoxious dipshits they've been!

Let's just wait for their rebuttal.

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Old 27th March 2004, 06:27   #101
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@ whiteflip: Actually, in the crossover phase of sexual reproduction, the Y chromosome swaps bits & pieces with the corrsponding part of the paired X chromosome, but the 4th arm of the X chromosome has nothing to swap with, is all. So there is still swapover for the Y chromosome, but the X chromosome it swaps with can have at most 3/4 the swapovers it would otherwise have.


Um... Yeah, did I mention that I did biotech for a couple years at Uni?


But yeah, if the gay couple doesn't actually have a really strong desire for thier own genes to continue, then there's no problem with them adopting a kid. In fact, it's a pretty good idea, IMHO.
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Old 27th March 2004, 06:36   #102
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Quote:
Originally posted by EternalSSaturn
P.S. to xzxzzx:is that a quote from Ayn Rand in your sig?
Yes, but before you bash me for agreeing with her (as anyone who as asked that question before has done), realize that this quote:
Quote:
"Intellectual freedom cannot exist without political freedom; political freedom cannot exist without economic freedom; a free mind and a free market are corollaries."
Is the only thing I have ever read of, around, close to, in the proximity of, or relating to her.

Freedom of speech is the basic freedom of humanity. When you've lost that, you've lost everything.
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Old 28th March 2004, 16:27   #103
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I wasn't even going to bash you for it. People bash me for reading her books.
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Old 28th March 2004, 16:35   #104
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Quote:
Originally posted by Raz
Some peoples underlying concerns are that gay parents would raise gay children. Because all straight parents raise straight children right.
I am living proof that that is wrong. I am a bisexual male(and this is the first time for me to say it), but my parent are straight. so if straight can produce bi or gay, then gay can produce straight. It is all in the way someones natural chemistry works.

I have also heard one case against gay marriage was that homosexuality was a mental disease. I have also heard that some gay people could become straight again, like reprogramming or something like that.
Personally, it is a bunch of bulls**t
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Old 28th March 2004, 17:19   #105
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Add a note of sarcasm to this:

Because all straight parents raise straight children right.

And it's much clearer.

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Old 28th March 2004, 18:04   #106
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Dick Cheney is a great example: (assumed) straight parent, lesbian daughter.

As it turns out, im in lab bio, we just learned about XXY and XYY etc....

Supposedly, some years ago, a study found that the percentage of XYY men in jail compared to normal guys is higher than that of the rest of the population, However, that study has since been rebutted.....

Is it me, or has all opposition to gay marriage in this thread more or less evaporated by now? that's sorta interesting......maybe all the homophobes had a sudden flash of insight?
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Old 28th March 2004, 18:15   #107
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Or maybe they realized that homosexual marriages changes nothing about their day to day lives.

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Old 29th March 2004, 06:51   #108
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Quote:
Originally posted by Raz
Add a note of sarcasm to this:

Because all straight parents raise straight children right.

And it's much clearer.

*Sigh*

"Because all straight parents raise straight children, right?"

There. Problem solved.

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Old 29th March 2004, 07:34   #109
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tavernology
@ whiteflip: Actually, in the crossover phase of sexual reproduction, the Y chromosome swaps bits & pieces with the corrsponding part of the paired X chromosome, but the 4th arm of the X chromosome has nothing to swap with, is all. So there is still swapover for the Y chromosome, but the X chromosome it swaps with can have at most 3/4 the swapovers it would otherwise have.
so its the x chromosome that is theoretically dying through replicate fade or whatever? why is the Y chromosome so tiny then?

and no you didnt mention it (to my knowledge at least)

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Old 29th March 2004, 08:34   #110
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Actually, yeah, the X chromosome is slowly degrading in the human species, and there's been a couple of studies done on gorillas showing that in them, the X chromosome is considerably degraded, and the degredation is accelerating. The Y chromosome has always been smaller, basically since the start of sexual reproduction, even in plants, there is a definate size difference in the chromosomes for the male and female sexual cells, but thier system is obviously considerably different to ours.
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Old 29th March 2004, 19:12   #111
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Quote:
Originally posted by mikeflca
Is it me, or has all opposition to gay marriage in this thread more or less evaporated by now? that's sorta interesting......maybe all the homophobes had a sudden flash of insight?
I stopped objecting in this thread because I got tired of being bashed for it, being called "homophobic" and such, and because NO ONE MADE ANY OBJECTION TO MY POST!!! I posted several reasons why same-sex marriage should not be allowed, and the thread continued, completely ignoring what I had to say (except for one person who obviously didn't read my statements carefully enough).

I am homophobic - afraid of homosexuality. I'm not afraid of homosexuals as people; as people, there's nothing wrong with them.
I'm afraid of what it's going to mean for the institute of marriage and for the wellbeing of children.
If same-sex marriage is approved, then it is no longer one man and one woman for a marriage, what's to stop poligamy and polyandry? Everyone will marry everyone else just for the benefits of marriage.

People will marry other people if they're just going to live together for a few months, never loving each other, maybe not even liking each other that much, just for a few spare dollars, and then getting divorced when they move out. That's what I see in the future, and that's another reason I'm against same-sex marriage.
[edit: typos. Sorry again about the double post]

The world is made of conflicts: good and evil, order and chaos, light and dark, hot and cold. All are essential to life. None can prevail for any length of time, or life will fail. In the end, the best any can hope for is balance.

Last edited by Nimelennar; 29th March 2004 at 20:36.
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Old 29th March 2004, 20:33   #112
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[edit: whoops, didn't think the first one went through sorry]

The world is made of conflicts: good and evil, order and chaos, light and dark, hot and cold. All are essential to life. None can prevail for any length of time, or life will fail. In the end, the best any can hope for is balance.
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Old 29th March 2004, 20:40   #113
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You're missing the point entirely. Allowing same sex marriages is about accepting that people who love each other and want to spend the rest of their life together can officiate it. If anything to prevent the degradation of it we should take away any benefits that come with it and make it a long and annoying process to get there.

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Old 29th March 2004, 21:13   #114
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Quote:
Originally posted by Raz
You're missing the point entirely. Allowing same sex marriages is about accepting that people who love each other and want to spend the rest of their life together can officiate it. If anything to prevent the degradation of it we should take away any benefits that come with it and make it a long and annoying process to get there.
OK, I've got to ask... If the benefits are taken away, what reason is there to get an official marriage license from the goverment? It sounds like, stripped of all of its benefits, it would serve no purpose as a civil institution, and should be a purely religious matter, in which casae it shouldn't be regulated at all, except by the religious institute performing it.

Personally though, I'm with you in the sense that there should be a long and annoying process required before two people can get married, and most, if not all, of the current benefits to married couple sshould be phased out.

The world is made of conflicts: good and evil, order and chaos, light and dark, hot and cold. All are essential to life. None can prevail for any length of time, or life will fail. In the end, the best any can hope for is balance.
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Old 29th March 2004, 23:16   #115
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So when a husband tries to visit his wife in the hospital, he should be denied to see her?

And if a gay man tries to do the same with his "life partner", should he be denied access to see him?

What about these benefits of marriage?

The religious people can keep "marriage", but I'd say I'm tentatively in favor of "civil unions" with the same benefits of marriage. I'll need to think this out some more to be sure.

Freedom of speech is the basic freedom of humanity. When you've lost that, you've lost everything.
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Old 30th March 2004, 00:29   #116
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Screw it. I was going to divide that list up into sublists, but I'm just going to state it in general:
Almost all of those benefits should be scrapped entirely (In fact, a lot of them could be solved by having a last will and a living will and setting power of attorney).

Almost all of the rest (ie Medicare, child/friend sick/dead) should be available to EVERYONE!!!

There may be a couple of exceptions, but most of the things on that list fall into one of those two categories or is trivial, or could be resolved by different form of governmental change (Veteran benefits: STOP GOING TO WAR!!!).

The world is made of conflicts: good and evil, order and chaos, light and dark, hot and cold. All are essential to life. None can prevail for any length of time, or life will fail. In the end, the best any can hope for is balance.
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Old 30th March 2004, 07:19   #117
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There's nothing wrong with same-sex amrriages. They aren't going to annhilate the sanctity of marriage. It will just allow people who are effectively married in thier minds to actually become married. Really, where is the problem with that?

If you seriously think that this will result in poligamy and polyandry, then I'd like to know where you're getting your facts from.
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Old 30th March 2004, 07:55   #118
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Nimelennar: Yes, because a change can be made somewhere else, let's just forget about the issue entirely. Since we have diplomats, let's just scrap our military force.

In fact, by the same token, let's get rid of the police force, fire departments, etc.

As for your "solutions", what about "Right to file a wrongful death suit", just as an example?

Freedom of speech is the basic freedom of humanity. When you've lost that, you've lost everything.
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Old 30th March 2004, 21:39   #119
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Quote:
Originally posted by xzxzzx
Nimelennar: Yes, because a change can be made somewhere else, let's just forget about the issue entirely. Since we have diplomats, let's just scrap our military force.

In fact, by the same token, let's get rid of the police force, fire departments, etc.

As for your "solutions", what about "Right to file a wrongful death suit", just as an example?
I'm not saying scrap the military force, I'm saying STOP GOING INTO USELESS WARS!!! ie: Vietnam, Iraq. Stop violating treaties, stop directly disobeying the UN, stop alienating your supposed allies and see how many fewer people in your military die.
This in no way applies to police officers and fire fighters.

And any relative or friend should have the right to file a wrongful death suit. Just because someone didn't find someone who they wanted to spend the rest of their life with doesn't mean that no one should investigate their death.

Tavernology:
Let's say there's a bisexual man who wants to marry both a man and a woman. If homosexuals are allowed to be married, and both marriages would be valid, then the law saying "only two people" obviously discriminates against bisexuals. It's just as valid an argument as the same-sex marriage one.

The world is made of conflicts: good and evil, order and chaos, light and dark, hot and cold. All are essential to life. None can prevail for any length of time, or life will fail. In the end, the best any can hope for is balance.
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Old 30th March 2004, 23:26   #120
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nimelennar


Tavernology:
Let's say there's a bisexual man who wants to marry both a man and a woman. If homosexuals are allowed to be married, and both marriages would be valid, then the law saying "only two people" obviously discriminates against bisexuals. It's just as valid an argument as the same-sex marriage one.
What? No it doesn't discriminate at all. To get married by the current definition, one must choose one and only one person to marry. Means the poor bi-man is gonna have to break it off with somebody, or tell one of them about the other... Hehe.

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