Old 19th November 2004, 11:00   #161
gaekwad2
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Originally posted by shakey_snake
Of course, the only difference between an atheist and a theist is that the atheist allows himself to be blinded by pride.

Tit for tat, Geoff
Nah, just plain wrong.

Atheists don't think the world is shaped after their beliefs.
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Old 19th November 2004, 12:37   #162
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Originally posted by shakey_snake
How is letting religion take over your life a bad thing?
How about the 9/11 hijackers? They let religion take over their lives and it blinded their sense of right and wrong.

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Old 19th November 2004, 13:03   #163
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How about the 9/11 hijackers? They let religion take over their lives and it blinded their sense of right and wrong.
No, they didn't. They let a fanatical leader take over their lives. True Islam is a peaceful religion, just like true Christianity.


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Old 19th November 2004, 13:04   #164
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Originally posted by shakey_snake
How is letting religion take over your life a bad thing?
It obfuscates your perception of things, like will said. You reasons, excuses and opinions would all be shaped on religion. And because religion is something created by people, it can't be perfect, hence it's not a good idea to have it take over your life.
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Old 19th November 2004, 13:13   #165
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From here
American Athiests:
Mr. Adams, you have been described as a “radical Atheist.” Is this accurate?

Douglas Adams:
Yes. I think I use the term radical rather loosely, just for emphasis. If you describe yourself as “Atheist,” some people will say, “Don’t you mean ‘Agnostic’?” I have to reply that I really do mean Atheist. I really do not believe that there is a god - in fact I am convinced that there is not a god (a subtle difference). I see not a shred of evidence to suggest that there is one. It’s easier to say that I am a radical Atheist, just to signal that I really mean it, have thought about it a great deal, and that it’s an opinion I hold seriously. It’s funny how many people are genuinely surprised to hear a view expressed so strongly. In England we seem to have drifted from vague wishy-washy Anglicanism to vague wishy-washy Agnosticism - both of which I think betoken a desire not to have to think about things too much.

People will then often say “But surely it’s better to remain an Agnostic just in case?” This, to me, suggests such a level of silliness and muddle that I usually edge out of the conversation rather than get sucked into it. (If it turns out that I’ve been wrong all along, and there is in fact a god, and if it further turned out that this kind of legalistic, cross-your-fingers-behind-your-back, Clintonian hair-splitting impressed him, then I think I would chose not to worship him anyway.)

Other people will ask how I can possibly claim to know? Isn’t belief-that-there-is-not-a-god as irrational, arrogant, etc., as belief-that-there-is-a-god? To which I say no for several reasons. First of all I do not believe-that-there-is-not-a-god. I don’t see what belief has got to do with it. I believe or don’t believe my four-year old daughter when she tells me that she didn’t make that mess on the floor. I believe in justice and fair play (though I don’t know exactly how we achieve them, other than by continually trying against all possible odds of success). I also believe that England should enter the European Monetary Union. I am not remotely enough of an economist to argue the issue vigorously with someone who is, but what little I do know, reinforced with a hefty dollop of gut feeling, strongly suggests to me that it’s the right course. I could very easily turn out to be wrong, and I know that. These seem to me to be legitimate uses for the word believe. As a carapace for the protection of irrational notions from legitimate questions, however, I think that the word has a lot of mischief to answer for. So, I do not believe-that-there-is-no-god. I am, however, convinced that there is no god, which is a totally different stance and takes me on to my second reason.

I don’t accept the currently fashionable assertion that any view is automatically as worthy of respect as any equal and opposite view. My view is that the moon is made of rock. If someone says to me “Well, you haven’t been there, have you? You haven’t seen it for yourself, so my view that it is made of Norwegian Beaver Cheese is equally valid” - then I can’t even be bothered to argue. There is such a thing as the burden of proof, and in the case of god, as in the case of the composition of the moon, this has shifted radically. God used to be the best explanation we’d got, and we’ve now got vastly better ones. God is no longer an explanation of anything, but has instead become something that would itself need an insurmountable amount of explaining. So I don’t think that being convinced that there is no god is as irrational or arrogant a point of view as belief that there is. I don’t think the matter calls for even-handedness at all.
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Originally posted by gaekwad2
Nah, just plain wrong.

Atheists don't think the world is shaped after their beliefs.
Yeah, good point. Atheism thinks the world is shaped by what they're "convinced" because they've "thought about it a great deal".
What a load of shit.


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Old 19th November 2004, 13:17   #166
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People have been killing in the name of God ever since the beginning. They don't need a fanatical leader, they think they have God on their side.

Shakey, some people require proof and evidence to believe in something. It's not so unheard of.
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Old 19th November 2004, 13:25   #167
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So, you don't think I have proof or evidence to believe in my faith?


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Old 19th November 2004, 13:32   #168
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There is absolutely no proof or evidence of any God, yes.
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Old 19th November 2004, 13:34   #169
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Quote:
Originally posted by shakey_snake
Yeah, good point. Atheism thinks the world is shaped by what they're "convinced" because they've "thought about it a great deal".
What a load of shit.
Wrong again!

Atheists know that their understanding of the world is limited.

Quote:
Originally posted by shakey_snake
No, they didn't. They let a fanatical leader take over their lives. True Islam is a peaceful religion, just like true Christianity.
Then what is 'true' Islam or Christianity, the religion practiced by millions or the fictional peaceful ideal?
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Old 19th November 2004, 13:35   #170
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There is no irrefutable proof of the existence of god. If there was, there would be no atheists. Evidence is fickle at best. A book of stories written two thousand years ago, in my eyes, does not count as credible evidence.

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Old 19th November 2004, 14:02   #171
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Alright ya'll, don't like gang up on him. That's just uncool.
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Old 19th November 2004, 14:05   #172
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This is a funny debate. Neither side seems to understand the other, except in the barest of terms.

Atheists say there is no God for the same reason they say that there is no evil leprechaun on the dark side of the moon, and no invisible pink unicorns - there is no conclusive proof, for instance, that invisible pink unicorns don't go around eating invisible pink unicorn food. However, neither is there proof that there are, and the burden of proof lies on the person asserting that IPUs do exist. It's Occam's Razor, and it applies to God as much as any other potentially fictional entity.

Believers, on the other hand, feel there is proof due to their own personal experiences - that is, God shows himself to believers, by the things done for them, for prayers answered, for the sense of well-being that comes naturally with following a religion. Also, given equal ignorance, I believe that a Christian will do better in life than a non-Christian - you see, the Bible has a lot of excellent moral values, and sage advice, as much as it may have some insane and/or ultimately immoral advice - fortunately, that's mostly interpreted away.

A skeptic, of course, firmly believes that the believers' so-called "proof" is nothing but the human mind's ability to fit things into a preconceived model.

I'm not a materialist, not quite skeptical enough to think that anytime a prayer seems to be answered, it's simply a coincidence, as much as I may seem to be. I do not think I am the sum of a few trillion neurons firing in my skull. If I am, that's fine - it doesn't really matter anyway, you see?

If I'm simply a collection of neurons firing around in my head, then, there is no grander scale to justify my actions to. Life is just a chance chemical reaction that will burn out just like any other - it's unusual in that it's self-organizing, and self-complicating, but does that really make it worth preserving?

However, while I do not think that "the physical universe" is simply the total of all existence, I remain firmly an apathetic agnostic (ignostic) - it is not that I think that the question of God isn't answerable, it's just that if it were answered, nothing would be different, because, and here's the thing: I would choose to be separated from a God if simply living a good life is not enough to join him.

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Old 19th November 2004, 14:08   #173
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Bravo, xzxzzx.

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Old 19th November 2004, 16:06   #174
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OH fucking great another "religious thread" I wonder how long this thread will go on before everyone gets tired, realizes people are allowed to believe what they want to believe (except scientologists) and that nobody gives a shit.

I'm betting 30 pages. You?

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Old 19th November 2004, 16:09   #175
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I'm not betting on the length of it, but I do bet another of these threads will show up sooner or later.
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Old 19th November 2004, 16:19   #176
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And I seem to get sucked into every one of them, despite knowing how pointless they are.
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Old 19th November 2004, 16:51   #177
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People are allowed to believe what they want to believe, yes, but I think there's no harm in discussing it. Helps each side to know the other's stance on issues.
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Old 19th November 2004, 17:06   #178
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Quote:
Originally posted by shakey_snake
No, they didn't. They let a fanatical leader take over their lives. True Islam is a peaceful religion, just like true Christianity.
Who said anything about "true" Islam? They let a religion take over their lives. It just happened to have devastating consequences because it happened to be extreme fundamentalist Islam.
Quote:
Originally posted by gaekwad2
Atheists know that their understanding of the world is limited.
Indeed. Atheists know that there is very little chance that they will find the ultimate truth, they just think that they can get much closer by basing their understanding of the world on logic, reason and experience.

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Old 19th November 2004, 17:20   #179
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Originally posted by xzxzzx
I would choose to be separated from a God if simply living a good life is not enough to join him.
But living a good life isn't even required by Jesus! All that he wants you to do is to wholeheartedly tell him that you love him.
Quote:
Originally posted by General Geoff
There is no irrefutable proof of the existence of god. If there was, there would be no atheists. Evidence is fickle at best. A book of stories written two thousand years ago, in my eyes, does not count as credible evidence.
I never said there was irrefutable proof. I just asked if you thought that there was evidence at all, which you appearently do.
If there was irrefutable proof of God's existance, why would he ever have put the tree in the garden of Eden? God wants mankind to love him by choice, as that is the only true love.
Quote:
Originally posted by gaekwad2
Wrong again!

Atheists know that their understanding of the world is limited.
So why do they jump all up in Christianity's' grill, whenever it claims the same thing?
Quote:
Then what is 'true' Islam or Christianity, the religion practiced by millions or the fictional peaceful ideal?
Both. Many people have a good grasp on their faith, many don't; and these people are often intermixed with each other.


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Old 19th November 2004, 17:22   #180
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I don't know why this posted twice.


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Old 19th November 2004, 17:34   #181
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Divine intervention
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Old 19th November 2004, 18:14   #182
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Originally posted by shakey_snake
But living a good life isn't even required by Jesus! All that he wants you to do is to wholeheartedly tell him that you love him.
I know. And I find it too repugnant to consider. I will not worship, nor love, nor whatever, a God who requires farcical ceremonies such as having to know the story of Jesus to develop a relationship.

This is my choice. The God of the Christian Bible - one that crushes and curses and kills with one hand, and "loves" with the other (and don't give me this OT vs. NT bullshit, if God is omniscient, the concept of changing one's mind doesn't make any sense) - is not a being I wish to associate with. If this condemns me to spend the rest of eternity separated from God, I will accept it, knowing that I have integrity.

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Old 19th November 2004, 18:19   #183
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It is interesting that people talk about how many religious wars and religiously influenced movements that are negative in today's terms there are, and use this number as an argument against religion. I could make an identical argument against government, it'd make as much sense.

It is not religion that is good, it is the cause for the religion that should be revered--just like government in and of itself isn't good or bad, it's all in the use.

Oh, and as for this:
Quote:
if God is omniscient, the concept of changing one's mind doesn't make any sense
God didn't change his mind, people have changed. God can't tell all the details of the future, or there would be no need for reality.
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Old 19th November 2004, 19:01   #184
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I know. And I find it too repugnant to consider. I will not worship, nor love, nor whatever, a God who requires farcical ceremonies such as having to know the story of Jesus to develop a relationship.
God doesn't require someone to know the story of Jesus, just he wants people to understand the implications if they have heard it. Look at Job as an example, he had such an amazing relationship to God that, God brags about Job to Satan.


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Old 19th November 2004, 19:51   #185
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Originally posted by xzxzzx
I know. And I find it too repugnant to consider. I will not worship, nor love, nor whatever, a God who requires farcical ceremonies such as having to know the story of Jesus to develop a relationship.
God does not require empty ceremonies, or knowing the story of Jesus. He requires you to trust him and that you love him.

If God required empty ceremonies he would never have sent Jesus. The temple leaders were doing a great job of performing empty ceremonies in Jerusalem, rituals based on God's law, yes. But not based in any love or reverence of God.

Christianity isn't about rituals, or going to church. It's about having a personal relationship with God.
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Old 19th November 2004, 22:22   #186
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mattress
God does not require empty ceremonies, or knowing the story of Jesus. He requires you to trust him and that you love him.

Christianity isn't about rituals, or going to church. It's about having a personal relationship with God.
Amen Brother! . . . A "personal relationship" with God is the way I live my life . . . I'm not a religeous person, rather a spiritual person . . .

IMO, church is nothing more than "organized religion" which I'll have no part of having been forced to participate in the "cult" of protestant beliefs for my entire childhood until I left home.

Sure, I believe there is an almighty being, but I'm not going to force my belief nor try to convince alternate beliefs that they're wrong or inept in their thinking.
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Old 19th November 2004, 22:37   #187
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Didn't God screw up Job's life just to test his faith?
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Old 20th November 2004, 00:08   #188
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yeah and murdered everyone else just to test Noah's faith.

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Old 20th November 2004, 02:23   #189
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God allowed Satan to mess with Job because Satan was asking big questions that Satan was hoping God wouldn't allow him to verify. Rather than give Satan a technical victory, he allowed Satan to use Job as a test subject. I fail to see how this could be interpreted as wrong on any level, since God has eternity to rectify Job's position and Job wouldn't exist at all if it weren't for God.

And since when did Noah's being warned about the flood make the great deluge a test of his faith? The cleansing was going to happen, Noah or not. We're just lucky he was around or (presumably) no us!
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Old 20th November 2004, 04:29   #190
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you win. Thread over.

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Old 20th November 2004, 04:30   #191
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Well, I'm glad that's settled.
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Old 20th November 2004, 07:40   #192
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Quote:
Originally posted by Phyltre
God allowed Satan to mess with Job because Satan was asking big questions that Satan was hoping God wouldn't allow him to verify. Rather than give Satan a technical victory, he allowed Satan to use Job as a test subject. I fail to see how this could be interpreted as wrong on any level, since God has eternity to rectify Job's position and Job wouldn't exist at all if it weren't for God.
So god killed jobs family for a bet?

I'm not sure I want to worship someone knowing that they might terminate me as part of some bickering.

[edit: typeos]

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Old 20th November 2004, 07:56   #193
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Yeah I surely don't want to be some deranged deity's "test subject". How are actions like these ever justified? You fail to see how this is wrong? Wow. Seriously.
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Old 20th November 2004, 10:43   #194
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But that's ok, because it's all part of "god's plan"!

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Old 20th November 2004, 17:59   #195
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So god killed jobs family for a bet?

I'm not sure I want to worship someone knowing that they might terminate me as part of some bickering.

[edit: typeos]
Satan killed Job's family. NOT God.You need to understand that much of what happens in this story is as much about God's relationship to Satan as God's relationship to Job. Satan when "wondering about earth to and fro" has as much free choice as you and I. But because of Job's love for God, God told Satan not to lay a finger on Job(the first time).
Quote:
Originally posted by Germ
Yeah I surely don't want to be some deranged deity's "test subject". How are actions like these ever justified? You fail to see how this is wrong? Wow.
You are not God's test subject, you're Satans. As a matter of fact, you're under Satan's power right now, (because you don't love God), you just don't realize it.(Satan prefers that you not realize it, because then you have no reason to love God)
typo fixing.


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Old 20th November 2004, 18:09   #196
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So what's stopping god from just making satan cease to exist?

And furthermore, what does satan have to gain from people being indifferent toward god? It's not like he's going to leave hell anytime soon, from what I've gathered.

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Old 20th November 2004, 18:16   #197
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Wouldn't it of been easier for God to just program humans to love God when he made us?

This is where i see religion making no logic sense. Why give a human free will knowing that he/she can quite happily commit sins? Just don't give humans the thought of sins at all, block it out of their minds. This wouldn't be so hard for someone who is all powerful and the creator of everything.
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Old 20th November 2004, 18:30   #198
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Quote:
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So what's stopping god from just making satan cease to exist?

And furthermore, what does satan have to gain from people being indifferent toward god? It's not like he's going to leave hell anytime soon, from what I've gathered.
He's like a lot of people you know. He's miserable, so he wants to make everyone else miserable, too. You can't tell me you don't know someone like that.
Quote:
Originally posted by Schmeet
Wouldn't it of been easier for God to just program humans to love God when he made us?

This is where i see religion making no logic sense. Why give a human free will knowing that he/she can quite happily commit sins? Just don't give humans the thought of sins at all, block it out of their minds. This wouldn't be so hard for someone who is all powerful and the creator of everything.
Because if you love without chooseing to, then what kind of love is that really?


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Old 20th November 2004, 18:35   #199
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Yer but what kind of love is it if God has to scare people into loving him; that if they don't they will spend their after life in hell?
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Old 20th November 2004, 18:48   #200
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God doesn't scare anyone into loving him. It's just that if you love him, he loves you back. If you choose to not love him, then you'll have to do without.


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