Old 26th February 2009, 08:23   #1
kingo'mountain
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question for clutch drivers (sarge?)

learning here, watched a few good youtube videos already, and i have been with a licensed driving teacher twice already (he teaches other teachers too), problem is i started driving with the "no gas" method which means that i have to depress the clutch slowly all the way until it starts movin and then apply the gas....

on the videos, people pressed the gas WHILE depressing the clutch (talking about starts only), so actually i have 4 questions:

1.) can the simultaneous method prove a smoother start and less chance to stall?

2.) can i release the clutch quickly right after the friction point and not go all the way?

3.) i have also seen on the videos that while moving already some people press the clutch, shift, and quickly depress it, is it bad for the clutch\transmission?

4a.) also, in city areas do you drive a certain gear or change gears when the engine starts over-reving?

4b.) on traffic lights, do you keep it in 2-3? or go back to neutral - 1 and start over?

i'm asking all this because the teacher really made it a project just to shift gear, although i'm a fast learner, its just too much actions for me, it causes me to lose the pedal locations because i have to shift too, you know... "pat your head, rub your tummy" syndrome
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Old 26th February 2009, 08:37   #2
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You always start with 1st gear and work your way up if from a dead stop. It's easy to drive once you get used to it. Just takes a bit of practice.

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Old 26th February 2009, 12:39   #3
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yea, when you get used to it its easy. i believe almost everybody in europe drives with clutch and when you learn driving with clutch right from the start its really easy when you got used to it.

and yea, at stop lights i go to neutral and then start again from 1
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Old 26th February 2009, 15:00   #4
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Don't get me started

Clutchwork is all about balance.

To start off.
Gearstick in neutral, disengage cluth fully(foot right down), engage 1st gear, slowly engage clutch(bring foot up) until you feel the point at which the engine is starting to pull and feed more gas as you reach this point.
The thing is to have enough power to move the car(gas pedal) in relation to the amount of power that is sent to the gearbox/wheels(clutch pedal). What you want to avoid is fully engaging the clutch before you have enough power in the engine(stall), or when you have too much power and just dump the clutch straight in(unpredicable, but bad).
Everyone learns this by feel in time and stops worrying about their feet

A usefull excerise is to learn how to balance on the clutch.
This involves finding a slight incline and pulling away uphill as slowly as you can. Not only will this teach you how to release the handbrake in conjunction with clutch and gas, but you should also be able to 'feel' the point at which the clutch engagement just balances the revs applied and the car neither moves forward or rolls back. [edit. don't try this anywhere steep]
You can use this technique sometimes if you come to a stop in 1st gear, but it's bit heavy on the clutch linings and not best practice. (Same can sometimes apply to resting your foot on the clutch pedal while driving).

And thank goodness you have synchromesh nowadays and never need to learn the arcane art of 'double de-clutching'

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Old 26th February 2009, 17:23   #5
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The important thing to know about a clutch is that you disconnect the motor from the wheels. This is the engine disconnector in a way. Using the clutch slowly leads to smooth connection/disconnection of the engine power.

1) YES!
2) Always push it all the way, since disconnecting the clutch completly doesn't wear on the clutch as much as if you do it partially.
3) All usage with the clutch wears on the clutch. The clutch is a part that is made to be worn, but right usage will make it last for a long time.
4a) It's not over-reving. It's a way to break instead of using the breaking pedal, and is not damaging other than normal engine usage. Of couse it IS possible to over-rev this way, so use your head and choose the right gear to break with.
4b) As long as it's flat and full stop (speedometer gauge reaches 0), it's 1st gear. Always 1st when you are going from 0 and it's flat. Second gear can be considered if you are starting your car in a pretty steep downhill. Also, if it's steep downhill, the car should start moving by itself once the clutch is released. If it doesn't move, it's not steep enough for most cars. Some larger trucks have a really low 1st gear though, so unless it' really really steep and no load on it, you don't always need 1st gear, but normal cars always go by this rule.

Clutch Model

I added an image here to show how the clutch works. When you push the clutch-pedal, you retract the connection to the wheels from the engine, making no power through, this is why it's a bad idea to let go of the pedal fast, let go of it carefully.

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Old 26th February 2009, 20:30   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by PulseDriver

2) Always push it all the way, since disconnecting the clutch completly doesn't wear on the clutch as much as if you do it partially.
you didnt get my question, i was talking about launching (from standstill), after pressing the clutch and shifting to 1st gear, can i just depress the clutch slowly until friction point and let go quickly afterwards?

Quote:
4a) It's not over-reving. It's a way to break instead of using the breaking pedal, and is not damaging other than normal engine usage. Of couse it IS possible to over-rev this way, so use your head and choose the right gear to break with.
you didnt understand this either, i think..... let me explain this too, you started driving as normal, shifted to 2, youre in a city area (where you have to turn alot, plus stopping at traffic lights), do you keep driving on 2 (without flooring the gas ofcourse), or do you upshift when the revs get too high?


i haven't got to uphill\downhill starts yet, or parking.. waiting to learn that live first, but i think that once i get comfortable with the whole manual system, those will probably be a breeze
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Old 26th February 2009, 20:39   #7
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1 - I don't believe you can even start a car without applying gas.
2 - Theoretically you could, but you don't want to do it. The friction point is more than a 'point'. It isn't a binary switch but you're doing it gradually, even after the friction 'point'.. You'd send the power from the engine too sudden to the driving axle, 'kicking' the car forward.
3 - I wouldn't de-press the clutch too quickly when you're shifting (up or down). You don't want to send the power to the driving axle too sudden.
4a - I aim to stay around 2000 RPM, and switch at around 20(2nd),40(3rd),60(4th) and 80km/h (5th) (1.6km=~1 mile)
On the longer roads in the city where I don't expect to change my speed a lot, I also put it in 4th gear. Saves fuel and is better for the engine. In short, I drive in 3rd and shift down to second for tight corners.

4b - I never go to neutral on traffic lights. I slow down, put it in 2nd gear and let it roll for as long as possible (moving slowly on the clutch with no gas, so I don't have to stop/restart).
If I have to stop, I put it in 1st gear and press the clutch down entirely (brake if needed).

In Europe, or in the Netherlands at least, I believe that over 98% of all cars are manually driven.

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Old 26th February 2009, 20:56   #8
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Try practicing on a slight hill so you will roll backwards a little if you don't get it right.

The main thing I see people do is "Get your damn foot off the clutch pedal once you are going!" "Riding the clutch" is a common mistake and it burns the clutch out.

Quote:
or do you upshift when the revs get too high?
No, you downshift before you "bog down". Unless you need to accelerate, always shift to the highest gear possible.

Also, boneheads shift at the red line to try to go fast. That just breaks things. Shift at about 70% of the red line. You'll actually end up faster.

At the red line, your valves are floating and while it might sound like you are hauling ass, you're actually slower.

How to shift turbocharged sports cars:

Rev to 3500 rpm. Drop the clutch. Floor it. You'll notice little dots on your speedo that indicate the synchronized shift points. When you hit that speed, kram the next gear without clutching or clutching very quickly. The point is to not let the waste gate open, overrev, or crunch the tranny. Done properly, you will be shit through a goose Mustangs will disappear in your mirror.

High speed corners with front wheel drive:

Enter the corner at full throttle in a gear where you won't overrev the engine by the time you hit the end of the corner. If you overrev you will be in the wall. If you clutch in the corner, you will be in the wall. If you hit the brakes... you're toast. If you take your foot off the gas, you're smoked. You can drag your ass in the ditch, but as long as you've got power to the front wheels it'll pull you straight. Nothing with rear wheel drive will catch you.
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Old 26th February 2009, 21:32   #9
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I've only ever met one person who can't drive a manual here in the UK and that's because they were American.

I vary between driving very smoothly and slowly trying to never brake and staying in as high a gear as possible to dropping it into second and flooring it up to 70mph in 3rd.

In most urban areas I try keep it in as high a gear as possible and often stick it in 5th whilst doing 30. you can go straight from 1st to 5th if you want and rev it off the line. Certainly 2nd to 5th is no problem as you can easily get to 30 in 2nd which is about fast enough to warrant 5th gear.

At traffic lights I keep my foot on the clutch, put the car into 1st with my right foot on the brake, although I'm not sure that's what you should do to pass your test. Normally it's car into neutral and handbrake on, feet off all pedals until the lights go amber in which case it's time to put your foot on the brake, clutch down, handbrake off and start to pull away as the lights go green.

With regards to pulling the clutch up quickly when moving off, you can do this, but you need to have the revs high enough for it not to stall and you increase the revs to pull away. It'll also be jerky when what you want to be able to do is control everything smoothly to start with and then just do it faster once you've passed your test and are on your own.

I always learnt to have some revs going before bringing the clutch up and as it engages increase the revs as you bring the clutch further up. Hitting the biting point without any revs makes it very easy to stall unless you're very precise - which it is perfectly possible to be, I can hit mine everytime quickly without ever thinking about it, it's just muscle memory. However this took me a long time to master. I guess your instructor is just getting you used to the biting point and where it is.

First gear is only really there for getting your car moving from a standstill, it's a low gear to overcome the inertia of the car. So if you're coming up to some lights, you're breaking and they turn green before you stop then use second gear, unless you're very nearly at a standstill, in which case you might need first to get over the inertia again.

Always get your gear before the corner, not half way around it.

Putting the clutch in an coasting does not save on fuel as the engine will be fed with a tiny bit of fuel to stop is stalling. Coasting in gear uses no fuel as the engine is kept in motion by the wheels turning - which avoids it stalling.

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Old 26th February 2009, 21:45   #10
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Coasting in gear uses no fuel as the engine is kept in motion by the wheels turning - which avoids it stalling.
Coasting in neutral does save fuel, but "free wheeling" is very dangerous. Avoid the temptation. I got 600 miles out of a car that should have had a range of 400 miles while going across Nevada. But it is dangerous.
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Old 26th February 2009, 21:49   #11
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I don't see how "free wheeling" is dangerous, and certainly not very dangerous. If you keep the clutch down and the gear box in the gear that best matches your speed then it's very quick to get back to driving in gear normally.

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Old 26th February 2009, 21:55   #12
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It's because the trans-mission/axle keeps the drive wheels synchronized even while coasting. It's also why it's illegal. England would be hard pressed to find places where it would be of benefit, but Nevada has grades where you can coast 80-90 miles at a whack. Motor off... if you wanted to get really scary.

For tomorrows lesson for getting across the great American expanse with little gas money... we'll talk about drafting semi trucks Flinch and you'll cause an accident that's sure to be a crowd pleaser.

Last edited by rockouthippie; 26th February 2009 at 22:16.
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Old 26th February 2009, 23:28   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by rockouthippie
For tomorrows lesson for getting across the great American expanse with little gas money... we'll talk about drafting semi trucks
I've done that before and would not recommend it. Yeah, flinch and you are done for.

As for the dots above the speedometer that indicate the shift points. I've never seen those. I always learned to do it by the feel and what the tach read while considering what gear I was in. Maybe I've been driving the wrong cars ...

As for learning how to drive a stick ... well, you just gotta be able to feel it, which will come to you in time. As every car is different, being able to "feel it" is the best way to do. I would heed people's suggestions about finding a slight incline and determining how to hold the car. Great way to go and will teach you quick.

Oh, and I love all the asshats in the spec v forums that say their car is a piece of shit and is broken half the time. When asking how they shift, the response is always "well after the car redlines".
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Old 27th February 2009, 00:10   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by fwgx
In most urban areas I try keep it in as high a gear as possible and often stick it in 5th whilst doing 30.
IN the city in 5th? i heard that its best suited for freeways more than in-city driving, do you have enough control over the speed at this gear? i could get too high speed with the slightest touch of the gas, so i dont think thats too safe

Quote:
you can go straight from 1st to 5th if you want and rev it off the line. Certainly 2nd to 5th is no problem as you can easily get to 30 in 2nd which is about fast enough to warrant 5th gear.
isn't that straining the engine\transmission causing it to use more fuel? i know this because i'm a cyclist and when you upshift too fast it gets hard to paddle unless youre at the right speed, in the opposite situation in the car i guess thats why you heel-toe, to keep your engine from over-reving... heres a smart question... when's the best time to downshift? (obviously only when entering a city motorway from a freeway, right?)

Quote:
At traffic lights I keep my foot on the clutch, put the car into 1st with my right foot on the brake, although I'm not sure that's what you should do to pass your test.
my instructor taught me to stop at this order:

brake only, then second before standstill push clutch, brake to standstill, shift to first and go from there, problem is that when the traffic moves again, i have to slowly pull the clutch pedal out again, and i'm afraid that i will lose concentration and control over the car mostly when trying to take off again and turn at the same time, at traffic lights.


Quote:
With regards to pulling the clutch up quickly when moving off, you can do this, but you need to have the revs high enough for it not to stall and you increase the revs to pull away. It'll also be jerky when what you want to be able to do is control everything smoothly to start with and then just do it faster once you've passed your test and are on your own.
1.) so, simplest way to do this would be to apply gas, keep it steady at a low rpm, and just slowly relase the clutch until friction point? (is it wasting more clutch than the no-gas method?)

2.) you mean, not too fast to prevent hard launching but not to slow to lessen the chance to stalling?

Quote:
I guess your instructor is just getting you used to the biting point and where it is.
well, it just makes me more nervous of using the clutch, i have to act like a computer and be syncronized (left foot with right hand) while doing it all in order... i taught myself self control at work, mainly the cash register when scanning barcodes of groceries, menuvering without thinking took me a while to master too, but when being on the road risking yourself, your mind rushed through too many things to keep you in focus, for me at least, i'm ADHD (or ADD, dont remember), so realise what a bitch it is for me to learn to read the road and signs while simultaneusly driving.


Quote:
Always get your gear before the corner, not half way around it.
you mean shift? i need to practice shifting next to corners, timing and all... ugghhhhhh

Quote:
Putting the clutch in an (?)coasting(?) does not save on fuel as the engine will be fed with a tiny bit of fuel to stop is stalling. Coasting in gear uses no fuel as the engine is kept in motion by the wheels turning - which avoids it stalling.
explain that please, is it some kind of extra cap used between the flywheel and clutch? some kind of bearing system?
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Old 27th February 2009, 00:29   #15
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And remember, if you can't find them, grind them.

I drive a 5-ton truck for a living. Shifting is easy. Once you are used to it, you won't even think about it.
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Old 27th February 2009, 01:06   #16
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You can be in fifth or sixth and still only be driving at 30 mph. See the point to this is the higher gear lowers rpms, which save gas. As long as you are not going 10 mph and try to get into fifth, you are actually doing better in the long run. My car has six gears, I only hit six when on the highway and generally drive in fifth as much as possible.

As for skipping gears, I have never been convinced either way. Some people say it saves gas, while others think you just burn it. Generally skipping gears causes the ride to be a little more rough, so I generally refrain from doing that.

If you keep the car at a steady low rpm and try to get going, you are likely to stall it. You need the rpms high when you let out the clutch because when the car gets moving, the rpms are going to drop like a rock. As I said, no car is the same, but 1,500 to 2,500 rpm in my car works well (it idles at about 900, redlines at 7,500 and the tach reads to about 8,500). For a car that redlines at 5,000 to 6,000 rpm I would not recommend setting a value of 2,500 rpm to get the car moving (though you could do it if you let the clutch out very slowly, otherwise you will take off like a rocket!). That's why you just need to be able to feel it, which will come over time. You can feel the car beginning to stall out from the vibrations through the clutch long before you actually stall. You can feel the engine reving up and wanting to shift so you don't have to look at the tachometer/speedometer all the time. I never look at the speedometer: the gear I am in and how the car feels tells me about how fast I am driving.

When driving a stick you don't have to be a computer. There is a massive amount of wiggle room. And you will figure out what each car likes best with time in the vehicle and experience.

Don't worry about the corners either. If it is too much for you to deal with at first, go into the turn and take the car out of gear, continue through the turn and put the car back into gear once you have pulled through and are going straight again. That way you only have to deal with one thing at a time. Over time, you will start to take turns as fwgx suggested.

As for your last question I'm not too sure. I do know that if you drive down a steep hill with the car in gear, the rpms go higher ... if you take it out of gear, your rpms drop to what your car idles at. Thus, coasting saves gas.
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Old 27th February 2009, 06:17   #17
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by kingo'mountain

you didnt understand this either, i think..... let me explain this too, you started driving as normal, shifted to 2, youre in a city area (where you have to turn alot, plus stopping at traffic lights), do you keep driving on 2 (without flooring the gas ofcourse), or do you upshift when the revs get too high?

Yes when it get's uncomfertabley high, you gear up, but keeping low gears to slow down before turns is a good idea. Espesially in city areas where people might just jump out in the streets, letting go of the gas-pedal in a low gear will make the car strain more than if you had a higher gear.

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Old 27th February 2009, 06:26   #18
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kingo dude, you need to just get out and drive without an instructor confusing and frightening you every step of the way. You're overthinking things.

Quote:
Originally posted by ujay
And thank goodness you have synchromesh nowadays and never need to learn the arcane art of 'double de-clutching'
Come on, double de-clutching is fun.

... but I'm glad I don't have to do it every day.

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Old 27th February 2009, 07:00   #19
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well, although i'm of legal age to drive, without a license here can cost me in money and jail time, i'm gay-phobic enough tyvm

[edit] plus, the instructor is very nice, because he's a nice person in general, so thats not my problem, i cant really whine about him, i'm too ... umm... just afraid
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Old 27th February 2009, 07:29   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by fc*uk
As for your last question I'm not too sure. I do know that if you drive down a steep hill with the car in gear, the rpms go higher ... if you take it out of gear, your rpms drop to what your car idles at. Thus, coasting saves gas.
The rpms go higher in that case because the wheels are effectively turning the engine for you as it speeds up under gravity going down the hill. If you put your foot on the clutch and leave it there your rpms should go to zero, not idle level, because the rev counter is now disconnected from the engine.

Driving in second gear only in the city is not a good idea. You want to not over-rev the engine which if you're doing 30 in second gear you will be doing. Second gear is good for a few things:
1) Taking tight corners
2) Accellerating fast
3) Going slowly
But you should shift when the engine is under strain which you will be able to know by listening and feeling the car with time.

It will come with time and practice and is difficult to start. But it can't be that hard as everyone the other side of the pond does it, even some complete retards, so you'll be fine.

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Old 27th February 2009, 09:24   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by fwgx
The rpms go higher in that case because the wheels are effectively turning the engine for you as it speeds up under gravity going down the hill. If you put your foot on the clutch and leave it there your rpms should go to zero, not idle level, because the rev counter is now disconnected from the engine.
I haven't seen any cars where the rpm gauge "disconnects" at any point, as you say, and at that time doesn't display the true rev count.

In all the cars I've seen, the rpm gauge drops to idle level (e.g. 500 prm) when the clutch is fully depressed, since that is what you're dong - idling. If my rpm gauge dropped to zero, I'd worry that there'd been some sort of critical failure.

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Old 27th February 2009, 09:57   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by iomegajaz
I haven't seen any cars where the rpm gauge "disconnects" at any point, as you say, and at that time doesn't display the true rev count.

In all the cars I've seen, the rpm gauge drops to idle level (e.g. 500 prm) when the clutch is fully depressed, since that is what you're dong - idling. If my rpm gauge dropped to zero, I'd worry that there'd been some sort of critical failure.
You're quite right. I thought that sounded odd after I posted it.

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Old 28th February 2009, 15:44   #23
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Hell, just drive in what ever gear isn't WHHHAAAAAAAA!!!!! or CHUNKA-CHuNK-CHUNK and you'll be fine.

You're overthinking it. The main thing is to move the car without stalling it or burning rubber. It's only that zero to 5 mph that is a problem. The only hard part for a novice would be to not roll backwards at a graded stop.

Keep your rpm 2000-2500 rpm unless you are on the freeway, then shift to the highest gear. Maybe downshift if it seems doggish going up a hill.

And keep that damn foot off the clutch if you aren't shifting.



Oh and don't let women ever drive your car. Buy em their own beast to thrash if you have to.
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Old 1st March 2009, 09:00   #24
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I agree with iomegajaz, just try drive and let it just fall naturally.

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Old 1st March 2009, 18:38   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by rockouthippie
The only hard part for a novice would be to not roll backwards at a graded stop.
use the handbreak, so you have one foot for the clutch and one for gas. makes it a lot easier when you arent a pr0 yet and can do it without handbreak.
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Old 1st March 2009, 19:18   #26
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Oh. For Pete's sake.... handbrake...
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Old 2nd March 2009, 13:37   #27
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hey, when you are still learning its really easier than without it. but i actually only used it once in driving school and 2 or so times after that.
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Old 2nd March 2009, 20:20   #28
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handbreak:


handbrake:

Jesus loves you [yes, you] so much, he even died for you so that you will not need to die, but live forever
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Old 3rd March 2009, 00:06   #29
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ouch, i broke my arms and wrists like 5 times total, maybe more, my left hand is in bad shape, coordination is ok, i'd just say that if you x-ray'd my left hand and arm you'd pity me... i think my tendants grew tendats, thats how bad it is, i cant put the slightest pressure on my hands and wrists or they will get uncomfortably numb and tingly...

and yes, i also have a slight carpal stuff too, but its mostly because my sittig posture and hand posture are wrong
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Old 3rd March 2009, 12:59   #30
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[Image]

handbrake:
[Image]
o shi...

now i see it
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Old 5th March 2009, 07:55   #31
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I think in the saving gas discussion, it's important to know that the tachometer does NOT measure fuel consumption. It's related, but not at all a direct correlation.

In other words, if rolling downhill with your foot off the accelerator (but still in gear) causes your RPMs to increase, that does NOT cause your fuel consumption to increase. Fuel use only increases when you hit the accelerator pedal. Yes, the engine speed increases, but it is important to know that it doesn't vacuum more fuel when that happens.

Now with that in mind, when going downhill, if you want to save gasoline, there are several factors to consider.

First, the engine needs less gasoline (possibly none, depending on the design) to run if you leave it in gear with your foot off the accelerator when compared to neutral at idle.

Neutral at idle needs slightly more gasoline to keep the car running than what I mentioned above, because there is no energy from the wheels transferred to the engine.

The other factor to consider is this: Leaving the car in gear causes a small amount of engine braking, which can reduce the amount of coasting after you're done descending.

So, which has the lowest fuel consumption? It's really a matter of situation - I would be willing to bet there are situations that would be better for one way or the other.

Of course coasting with the engine off would be most efficient, but unsafe - power brakes and steering are no longer available, on some vehicles, what RoH mentioned about the axle turns out to be true, and being able to accelerate away from an unexpected problem is impossible.

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Old 5th March 2009, 11:29   #32
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Being in the highest gear possible also doesn't necessarily save fuel -- the more you're on the throttle, the higher the RPM band where the engine is most efficient moves. My truck's engine (just a little 4-cylinder) generally likes to stay above 2000 at all times, as well. And it doesn't mind being in second gear at 30 MPH -- actually, that's a reasonable shift point on my truck.

Oh, and you don't *really* need the clutch once you're moving :P
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Old 5th March 2009, 16:19   #33
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Oh, and you don't *really* need the clutch once you're moving :P
I was amazed when one of the friends in college taught me that trick. Don't use it too much though.
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Old 5th March 2009, 18:29   #34
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My truck's engine (just a little 4-cylinder) generally likes to stay above 2000 at all times, as well.

Things start to get a bit different when you get into a heavier vehicle. Large diesel engines are far more forgiving at low revs and you are less likely to stall.
And if you're going downhill in an HGV, then your gears are your brakes.

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Old 5th March 2009, 21:46   #35
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about engine braking, i'm sure i've read that when you downshift, the engine slows down to fit the gear, is it a universal thing, or did only some car companies implemented that?

i'm asking because when i downshift, the car revs higher, and are the rev meter and the speed meter connected? (like, the information on the rev meter says something about the speed) probably not, because when i downshift my bike depending on what speed i am, my feet are cycling faster but the speed lessens, i think i answered my own question here..

still curious, are there manuals that do rev matching automatically when you downshift?
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Old 5th March 2009, 23:37   #36
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Not really. It's not so much an engine thing - the engine reacts to the shift when it's not being given fuel. The transmission has synchronizers (Trannys aren't my real specialty, so someone else might offer a better explanation) of some sort that make it easier to shift though.

Engine braking is caused by compression in the piston chambers. Without getting overly technical, basically, it takes a considerable amount of energy to turn the crankshaft and move all the engine parts because of the compression cycle in normal 4-cycle engines. So, the engine serves as a form of resistance to the overall drive train when it's not being given fuel. That's why it helps to put the vehicle in reverse or low gear when parked; the engine's ability to resist coasting helps keeping the car from taking a trip without you. Of course, it's advisable to use the parking brake too.

It's easy for those of us that started with the multi-gear bike, then the lawn tractor, then the dirt-bike motorcycle or ATV 4-wheeler, the big farm tractor, then the pickup truck on corn paths, then finally real road driving. For some, they go straight from walking to the clutch in heavy traffic. I'd hate to try that. I'd be scared out of my mind if I had to do it that way.

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Old 6th March 2009, 00:56   #37
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Synchronizers match the speed of the incoming gear on the mainshaft with the speed of the mainshaft itself, which also requires speeding up or slowing down the countershaft, input shaft and clutch plate. (other than possibly reverse, none of the gears on the mainshaft are actually fixed in place -- the gears can spin freely on the shaft until a sliding spline engages the gear, locking it in place on the mainshaft). However, they're not capable of effecting the engine speed very much at all, and trying to do so causes significant wear on the synchro and shift fork. There may be a cars that do it electronically with the engine throttle, but they'd also have to know what gear you intend to shift to beforehand.
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Old 6th March 2009, 06:13   #38
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Thanks for the more detailed explanation. I'm by no means a mechanic, especially when it comes to transmissions.

I guess I worded what I said wrong. What I meant was when you start letting out the clutch pedal (in a downshift), the engine then increases RPMs as the clutch makes a stronger grip.

The wrong part of my post would be my saying the engine reacts to the shift, when what I really should have said was that the engine reacts to the clutch "biting".

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Old 6th March 2009, 07:36   #39
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Oh, and you don't *really* need the clutch once you're moving :P
You don't need it to get moving, either. I learned that one when I broke a clutch return spring out on the road.

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Old 6th March 2009, 14:24   #40
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jaz, thats impossible to start without the clutch, right when you turn the key you have to press (disengage)the clutch to start the engine from standstill, unless you live on a hill and just have to roll down the car to rev it up for driving ("shot in the dark" guess)..

i have also learned that i cant get my foot off the clutch completely after the biting point, i do have to ride the clutch for a sec (holding the clutch pedal still after the biting point) and drive a meter or two for the clutch to stay, then let it go completely, otherwise i stall

is that a sign for a worn out clutch? i suspect so because its a car built for driving students (instructor seat has pedals too) so maybe all the student clutching errors made it easy to slip and stall. which leads me to the following question: are unused clutches more forgiving about that? i mean, if i make a small sudden movement with my leg during the "moving off" routine, will there be less chance to stall?

because as a new driver i stalled a couple of times obviously, stressed out because of cars behind me, so my driving instructor had to "save me" using his pedals before it happened because i'm not used to the whole routine yet.
i guess empty parking lot sessions on the moving off part is in store here, right? i'm in my sixth lesson already and i didnt quite get the hang of it.

about the gears thing you said, deathazre, just to make it clear... lets take bike gears again, the sprocket wheels are "fixed" to a bearing and all turn simultanesly, that bearing in turn, spins the back wheel using a special one way tooth to move forward, thats why when we spin the pedals the other way, we hear that tooth noise and nothing happens, right?

still on the bike, the arm that switches the chain location, thats called the synchronizer in this case, right?

from that, generally on car gears, you mean that each "sprocket wheel" in the transmission box is independent and has its own "teeth" to move the wheels?

(i know i'm getting too technical, but probably this could be a good information source for other people too
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