Old 24th November 2010, 09:53   #1
Qmusica
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Quitting Shoutcast after 5 years!

Unfortunately, the absolute chaos caused by the "upgrade" to 2.0, added to by the TOTAL LACK OF RESPONSE to a blatant problem, have prompted me to start to shift towards Icecast.
For almost 2 weeks, my listing on Shoutcast either points to a different station, or at the times it does point to my station, it shows the stream titles from an African rap station. I have tried to submit technical support tickets on numerous occasions, all rejected by the "system". I have send "feedback" tickets in, no response. This is not just an inconvenience, but is an infringement on my brand; listing my brand and playing something else.
NOTE TO AOL / Shoutcast; you have the most appalling technical support I have ever encountered in my life, if you continue with this idiotic approach, you will eventually lose everything!
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Old 24th November 2010, 10:06   #2
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ironically i was trying to find your posts to ask a question regarding the issue (based on another report in http://forums.winamp.com/showthread.php?t=324237 and i'd remembered someone else recently mentioning the issue happening).

was going to ask what the IP of the overriding station is (as i see you're using a 1.9.9 beta version for the DNAS - not aware of that so i've no idea how it relates to the v2 tools) and my hunch is that non-sc_serv2 instances without the YP authentication hash may be the reason the directory is getting confused.

i've no idea what / why there's been no response though i will see what can be done (though things are likely to proceed slowly which won't help your annoyance but that's pretty much down to other reasons i cannot go into) as really this incorrect streaming shouldn't be happening no matter the version of the DNAS being used to fed to the directory.

-daz
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Old 24th November 2010, 10:36   #3
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It's no shock that people are moving to other technologies the complete disaster of SC2 deployment has caused confusion, frustration and although seems a good move forward has not managed to take people with it.

The YP is now nearly useless, even for some of the AOL hosted streams, and where once there was some approach to an open source/standard relating to the technology now there is none.

The broadcaster tools are ok, sc_trans2, but it left quite the majority out in the cold for SC2 as they use a plugin for Winamp which was/is not available officially.

I do feel for the people close to the technology as they have tried, some have been made redundant as AOL tries again to re-invent itself, but leaving the rest with no resource to continue what was started.

BW

Without open minds the world will die. Open yours and correct the mistakes you are making right now.
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Old 24th November 2010, 10:59   #4
Qmusica
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrO View Post
ironically i was trying to find your posts to ask a question regarding the issue (based on another report in http://forums.winamp.com/showthread.php?t=324237 and i'd remembered someone else recently mentioning the issue happening).

was going to ask what the IP of the overriding station is (as i see you're using a 1.9.9 beta version for the DNAS - not aware of that so i've no idea how it relates to the v2 tools) and my hunch is that non-sc_serv2 instances without the YP authentication hash may be the reason the directory is getting confused.

i've no idea what / why there's been no response though i will see what can be done (though things are likely to proceed slowly which won't help your annoyance but that's pretty much down to other reasons i cannot go into) as really this incorrect streaming shouldn't be happening no matter the version of the DNAS being used to fed to the directory.

-daz
Thanks DrO, its pointing (most of the time) to the other station http://72.51.43.142:8017, when it points to my station, it still carries the stream titles of the other station. I've just banned the IP from the admin pages of both my main stream and relay stream, but I believe this is not the issue as in the other thread you mentioned; the other station is not hacking my stream .... the issue is simply that Shoutcast is listing my station but linking to another one.
Any help would be appreciated, though I'm more or less decided to make the shift at some point.
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Old 24th November 2010, 11:11   #5
Qmusica
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bored_womble View Post
It's no shock that people are moving to other technologies the complete disaster of SC2 deployment has caused confusion, frustration and although seems a good move forward has not managed to take people with it.

The YP is now nearly useless, even for some of the AOL hosted streams, and where once there was some approach to an open source/standard relating to the technology now there is none.

The broadcaster tools are ok, sc_trans2, but it left quite the majority out in the cold for SC2 as they use a plugin for Winamp which was/is not available officially.

I do feel for the people close to the technology as they have tried, some have been made redundant as AOL tries again to re-invent itself, but leaving the rest with no resource to continue what was started.

BW
Very simple solution; AOL should go back to the version that worked! Better to swallow a little pride than to loose the market share due to endless bugs.
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Old 24th November 2010, 13:37   #6
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it has beta in the name, you shouldnt use it if you cant code or a hardcore computer user

AOL should get back all the original team of nullsoft, and winamp and shoutcast can be updated with something more then a bug fix
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Old 24th November 2010, 13:56   #7
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Qmusica: k, the server details matching with my gut feeling in the new directory not liking not having an authorisation hash. will see what i can find out.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bored_womble View Post
The broadcaster tools are ok, sc_trans2, but it left quite the majority out in the cold for SC2 as they use a plugin for Winamp which was/is not available officially.
well that shouldn't be an issue now that v2 of the DSP is out


port66: no one from the old team would come back and a lot of the issues with Winamp / SHOUTcast have originated from poor decisions made by these people we hold in so much esteem (i'm not knocking what they've done but some poor choices have caused so many issues it seems - but then we're all human and i've made plenty myself, alas the joy of hindsight).

---------------------------------------------------------------

ok, so i'm fairly new to SHOUTcast but there seems to be a real negativity to whatever it is people are associating as being 'SHOUTcast 2'.

what i can't work out is it more aimed at the directory/yp or is it the tools or just the fact it's not flash, etc?

i know the official documentation / example configs are in a dire state and that is being worked on but what else is it that is causing the grief? obviously i know about streams reporting the wrong thing on the YP now and i know there's some things which are wanted for the handling in sc_serv but is it really that bad or am i missing something altogether?

i'm asking this at anyone who will answer so i can get a better idea as all i'm really seeing is negativity and not sure if it's just one thing or a whole group of things.

-daz
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Old 24th November 2010, 15:11   #8
bored_womble
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so here is a quick summary the issues seen and perhaps ongoing

i) The sc_serv2 documentation is terrible. The initial releases of sc2 were very buggy, I believe some bugs remain, however for a current broadcaster to move over it is not an easy or obvious path to take.

off the top of my head, and I have not used sc_serv2 for a while, the following were an issue

a) Logging - Compared to Sc_serv1 this seems a backwards step as it did not work in a comparitive way (may be me or again the documentation not being easy to follow)

b) access to a specific mountpoint/streams via the index?id=x not explained very well and I believe id=0 is broken.

c) Examples of even *basic* configuration and an explaination of the differences between sc1 and sc2 would help things along.

d) The tools for broadcasting for DJs and home users are very poor. Although sc_trans2 has much functionality it is stuck in the command line era, ok for techies, no good to attract new people into Shoutcast. The Winamp DSP should have come first as *many* probably the 80-90% listen use that method, not sc_trans.

e) How to perform some of the current tasks, say updinfo=<song name etc>, with sc_serv2, aparently not possible, so not helping adoption where current systems are in place. Without using sc_trans2 there does not seem to be a method to update the titles directly on the server.

f) An obvious improvement from sc_serv1 was not apparent. So with the issues found the desire to move just was not there.

g) Getting listed on the YP2 took, i think, about 4/5 months as there was no way to get a key. Others built YP solutions but only got lambasted for it by AOL/Shoutcast staffers.

ii) sc_trans2 has scared many people off sc_serv2 for the following reasons

a) early betas were poor and buggy. I think you can still crash sc_trans2 (so segfault crash) with an incorrect option value.

b) documentation was about the features not about how to get it going easily and quickly. When you have it working it is quite good.

c) the change from a 'free' model to a $5 charge erked many (although I personally do not see a massive issue with it) and only for mp3, where Winamp remained free , that may change of course.

d)Command line only. The original sc_trans was written say 8/10 years ago, it was kind of acceptable, now no GUI, no good. The modern internetter wants a gui, everything clickable and working not so with sc_trans2.

e) Anyone else ?

BW

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Old 24th November 2010, 15:13   #9
Jkey
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It is a collection of little things left for a entire year,that have led to a big problem.

I have said before and I will say again,shoutcast had its staff reduced heavily
at the beginning of the year
.This has resulted in a slower response to fixing bugs.

There is now progress being made again,2011 will be a much better year for shoutcast 2.

So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish.
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Old 24th November 2010, 16:47   #10
port66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrO View Post


port66: no one from the old team would come back and a lot of the issues with Winamp / SHOUTcast have originated from poor decisions made by these people we hold in so much esteem (i'm not knocking what they've done but some poor choices have caused so many issues it seems - but then we're all human and i've made plenty myself, alas the joy of hindsight).

---------------------------------------------------------------

-daz
thought they all left because AOL told them to wear suits, and quit eating kebabs at work, and quit work on some p2p app, which no1 would care about now anyway

and tried to make nullsoft part of their corporate vision, instead of a laid back atmosphere you get at google and other software companies
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Old 24th November 2010, 18:42   #11
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I agree DrO, everybody makes poor choices at one time or another,
learning and extracting understanding from these experiences is the only
way we move forward.
The minor poor choices made by sc AOL staff in the past is far out weighed
by the great things that were accomplished under the restrictive circumstances they worked under.Ideas and points of view are not always listened to when the bigwigs are on a roll.

/End armchair philosophy.

So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish.
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Old 24th November 2010, 19:17   #12
port66
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everything nullsoft accomplished, was before AOL took over, nothing has happened to shoutcast or winamp since, except a few real minor fixes, and a transcoder thats not really a transcoder

the guy who made winamp sold off, and made a bad mistake and left, and the rest followed, and kjofol still hangs around for r0n to pickup, who brought the custom shaped skins to winamp
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Old 24th November 2010, 22:22   #13
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bored_womble: thanks for the information / points (seems to match with some of the things i've been reading so good to get some aspects confirmed).

btw, from b) access to a specific mountpoint/streams via the index?id=x not explained very well and I believe id=0 is broken id=0 seems to be set to act like id=1 though i'd have expected id=0 or just the plain index.html without a param to show a summary of all of the streams provided by the server so you can then go to the one wanted if more than one is active at the time (based on my noobie experience with it all ).

port66: people have been hired /fired / left whatever is deemed as 'nullsoft' many times over the years. everyone has this thing that it all went to pot when AOL took over - without it Winamp wouldn't be free - anyone remember it used to be shareware before the purchase? and the SHOUTcast directory has been basically free due to the AOL bandwidth provided for it.

they did good, they did bad, people come, people go. that's just how it is with software and irrespective of issues with higher powers, people cannot be expected to work on one project for years and not want to do something else (as a lot of the ex-Nullsofter's have proved with the variety of products they've produced or been involved with over the years since leaving).

at the end of the day, no one is forcing you to use things, it's free so you get what you pay for. if you don't like things and aren't going to provide constructive and where possible detailed coherent responses (*) on what is 'wrong' and how it could be improved (based on minimal support and that the basic infrastructure of the tools now is unlikely to change) then there's not much point in commenting - there is a reason why i'm asking for coherent comments / information (all i can say at the moment).

(*) based on the majority of posts seen i really struggle to understand your posts be that from you maybe being a non-native english speaker or just typing and thinking at a different rate.

Jkey: that's true, tis the fun of the corporate world

-daz
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Old 24th November 2010, 22:23   #14
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bored_womble: thanks for the information / points (seems to match with some of the things i've been reading so good to get some aspects confirmed).

btw, from b) access to a specific mountpoint/streams via the index?id=x not explained very well and I believe id=0 is broken id=0 seems to be set to act like id=1 though i'd have expected id=0 or just the plain index.html without a param to show a summary of all of the streams provided by the server so you can then go to the one wanted if more than one is active at the time (based on my noobie experience with it all ).

port66: people have been hired /fired / left whatever is deemed as 'nullsoft' many times over the years. everyone has this thing that it all went to pot when AOL took over - without it Winamp wouldn't be free - anyone remember it used to be shareware before the purchase? and the SHOUTcast directory has been basically free due to the AOL bandwidth provided for it.

they did good, they did bad, people come, people go. that's just how it is with software and irrespective of issues with higher powers, people cannot be expected to work on one project for years and not want to do something else (as a lot of the ex-Nullsofter's have proved with the variety of products they've produced or been involved with over the years since leaving).

at the end of the day, no one is forcing you to use things, it's free so you get what you pay for. if you don't like things and aren't going to provide constructive and where possible detailed coherent responses (*) on what is 'wrong' and how it could be improved (based on minimal support and that the basic infrastructure of the tools now is unlikely to change) then there's not much point in commenting - there is a reason why i'm asking for coherent comments / information (all i can say at the moment).

(*) based on the majority of posts seen i really struggle to understand your posts be that from you maybe being a non-native english speaker or just typing and thinking at a different rate.

Jkey: that's true, tis the fun of the corporate world

-daz
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Old 24th November 2010, 23:59   #15
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i get asked to be coherent on every forum, and i dont even know what it means.. but still, there was nothing much wrong with posts in http://forums.winamp.com/showthread.php?t=324230 , most topics on this forum are todo with playlist problems etc

so over looking and recoding contentdir, and adding a simple inbuilt mp3 player that acts as a virtual DSP client when no real DSP live source is connected into sc_serv.exe, and using copied read mp3 file frames and outputing them to the client stream should be a priority, as dedicated servers probaly wont have a soundcard etc

and by using a simple inbuilt mp3 player, client and listeners wont be able to download mp3s in your playlist directly, client wont have access to the full contentdir/playlist.pls file unless the serveradmin cannot set a custom filename

even if its the only real big change in the next 6 years
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Old 25th November 2010, 05:31   #16
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port66 I doubt your request will ever be met.
The on demand features were a part of the old shoutcast v1 software.

Use sc_trans v2 for playlist functionality.

So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish.
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Old 25th November 2010, 12:07   #17
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at the end of the day, no one is forcing you to use things, it's free so you get what you pay for.
I beg to differ on this point. The banner ads at the head of every SC page are paid for. If SC only relayed AOL stations, then the click-through volume would virtually vanish, and the ad revenue would dry up very abruptly. SC is / was a success due to the absolute volume of stations in the YP.
So, indirectly, every station on the YP is kind of paying to be there. Just as the stations need SC, SC also needs enough stations to be a leader of its sector.
Regarding positive feedback, its difficult to suggest ideas when peoples businesses are regularly getting screwed by corporate incompetence. The economic situation for FM and web broadcasters is dire at the best of times, let alone when basic stuff doesn't work and takes weeks / months to fix.
I can think of many new applications where SC and partner broadcasters could benefit, and where SC could become a frontline media force within a few years ..... but these ideas could only work if the human resources and management were at the very least, adequate.
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Old 25th November 2010, 13:25   #18
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port66 I doubt your request will ever be met.
The on demand features were a part of the old shoutcast v1 software.

Use sc_trans v2 for playlist functionality.
its not really a request, when v2 is out of beta there will still be hosters and users needing auto DJ and 1000 more php scripts and shell apps to do a simple task when there is no live source connected, which in v1 any client would just receive a icy 400 error on screen and you have to find another station to listen too

and i see no point in sc_trans, with schdules and playlists, which should be setup in the main sc_serv.exe the station is using for the live source to connect.

sc_trans is just an extension of sc_serv, and not really a transcoder or a real relay, when the normal sc_serv is still a relay

then the DJ connects late, and bangs out some mad techno, and you miss it, and the playlist being streamed for listeners to hear when there is nothing live passes the time for when un schduled 4 hour shows happen on a saturday

with a lot and alot of messing around with v1, you can have a setup like http://jungletrain.net/ which all could be simplfiied in v2, hence $35 for a pro version
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Old 25th November 2010, 16:58   #19
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sc_trans is a transcoder and it does relay.

sc_trans = shoutcast transcoder.

So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish.
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Old 25th November 2010, 18:57   #20
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and thats all a transcodor should do, unless nullsoft makes a all in 1 sc_serv,

making the inbuilt virtual DSP mp3 player available in the free sc_serv version, and all the schdules and transcoding as part of a pro version..

sc_serv is already a relay, transcoding could just be a option in the server setup and intercept the incoming source, transcode and relays it on to another sc_serv to out to listeners
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Old 26th November 2010, 20:45   #21
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and if nullsoft have licences for hosters to run pro versions, they can do what games do, and ping a master server with the licence key each time the sc_serv is run online.

everyone on this planet has the posibilities to earn money from running a shoutcast netstation except nullsoft, and if nullsoft starting charging and release a pro version they cant make the mistake of charging too much
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Old 26th November 2010, 20:54   #22
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Quote:
and if nullsoft have licences for hosters to run pro versions, they can do what games do, and ping a master server with the licence key each time the sc_serv is run online.
I agree,although stream host's may not

So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish.
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Old 26th November 2010, 21:00   #23
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not if game server hosters have a side project, some pro game tournaments still use shoutcast tv to broadcast streams of matches like http://www.own3d*****, sc_servs would cost $40pcm for 200 clients and 96kbs

+sc_serv 1 time payment + 16% licences for relays
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