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Old 29th April 2005, 03:32   #1
Sherwin Maxawow
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A personal letter I recieved from Mr. Ryan Geiss

Hello Milkdrop friends. I thought I would share a recent letter that I got back from Geiss himself in response to my email regarding the future of MD. Although it is pretty much the same message I've been hearing all along. But I still figured some of you might appreciate reading his own recent words on the subject.
____________________________________________________________

Hey Ben,

Thanks for the kind e-mail. The bad news is that I'm not sure I'll be able to work on MilkDrop anymore - AOL owns it, and seems determined to drive it into the ground. I'd love to get them to open source it but my sources at Nullsoft tell me it's not very likely. Bastards!

Anyway, fear not, because I'll be doing visualizers again someday, and I'll do some really kick-ass stuff. It amazes me what is possible now that no one has done yet. I've got a whole bucket of ideas sitting there. And I will be back... =) =)

I imagine the milkdrop preset authoring community will keep going for a while, but like you said, not forever. But I'll make some new stuff that's even better, don't worry.

Peace!
Ryan
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Old 29th April 2005, 06:59   #2
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Sounds good, I can't wait. SM
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Old 30th April 2005, 18:09   #3
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Alright, the man pulls through with some good but distant news. I see a light, the future is waiting for us ladies and gents.

Honeslty, I'ver been having a shit week, this may be the first time I've genuinely smiled at something other then anime.

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Old 3rd May 2005, 04:50   #4
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The second coming!
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Old 3rd May 2005, 14:33   #5
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Man this is old news.

The new news that you may find interesting is this.

-------------------------
From : Ryan Geiss
Sent : 02 May 2005 17:08:55
To : "John@ Rovastar"
Subject : dude

guess what? Nullsoft is going to opensource Milkdrop.

Happy day!
---------------------


To be fair it has been tried before in July 2003 when Ryan was last working there but maybe it will happen this time.

I'll respond more later but atm I am recovering from the AVIT VJ/visual festival in Birmingham. I don't think it was possible for me to drink as much beer and smoke as much weed in a 5 day period that I just did.

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Old 4th May 2005, 13:24   #6
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'Bout time!
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Old 5th May 2005, 13:34   #7
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All I can say is Wow! That was quick!
It's True!
The source has been released! Last eve!
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Old 5th May 2005, 15:47   #8
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I was expecting more responses like Rovastar's. But I am pleased with so many people's positive enthusiasm towards my post, which reflects my own feelings of hope too. Its better to be excited over something even if likely not going to happen soon.
Yet, who knows, Geiss might already be working on a Milkdrop super clone just in time for Christmas. YES....I know what I'm gonna ask Santa for this year!
Oh and as for you Rovastar(aka Scrooge!) You and your bah hum-bug attitude can expect to find yourself a nice lump of coal in your stocking from good old St. Geiss. Yesirree So you better what out !
I heard old St. Geiss reads these threads more than you relizee. YEp, and you can be sure he is makin a list and this joke has gone tooo far I know. But still.

Walking right along that--thin--fine--line- in between -GENIUS & iNsAniTy-...like a tightrope!
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Old 6th May 2005, 05:20   #9
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http://www.nullsoft.com/free/milkdro....04_Source.zip

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Old 6th May 2005, 16:28   #10
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It was quick to be released I thought the wheels would turn a lot slower. So now we can fix the bugs and create something better for v1.05

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Old 6th May 2005, 19:31   #11
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I think Ryan should come back for 1.05 since he's the master. SM
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Old 7th May 2005, 06:20   #12
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Gosh dang, I love Milkdrop so much, a better milkdrop will make me love it even more. Come back ryan. We hve a couple bugs, maybe more. And need a built in lyric player and more shapes and custom waves, oh so much more. Like I say before a volume meter. Maybe it will all happen soon. SM
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Old 7th May 2005, 18:51   #13
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I downloaded the source code yesterday, it works fine, but when i build a new release version, some "heavy" presets run at 10-20 fps less compared to the same presets running on the original milkdrop. (with the exact same settings of course!) The difference sometimes varies, e.g. a preset runs steady at 60fps now, it may run at 50 some minutes later without even exiting the plugin! Has anyone else gotten this too?

btw, does anyone know of a dx uninstaller (that works!) for DX 9.0c? The SDK (v 9.0) doesn't seem to install properly over dx 9.0c and although i have all the libs and includes needed for the linking, the runtime DLLs were left intact and i cannot switch from retail to debug versions and vice versa
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Old 7th May 2005, 20:51   #14
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PROJECT SETTINGS
----------------
1. Optimizations in general should be set to 'Maximize Speed'.

2. Make sure that the optimizations for 'expr\cfunc.c' are turned OFF. Otherwise, maps that use a user 'eval' function will drop to ~3 fps.

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Old 7th May 2005, 21:26   #15
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So now that its open source does that mean Ryan will be able to work on a new version??? Anyone have any good speculations as to what we can expect to see in the future? Also could you please explain it in a way that I can easily grasp. Thanks

Walking right along that--thin--fine--line- in between -GENIUS & iNsAniTy-...like a tightrope!
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Old 7th May 2005, 23:28   #16
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Sherwin, Anyone can work on MD now, but Ryan should come back because he knows everything about it. If he does the same as he did with 1.04 he takes the MD forum users feedback and suggestions on new features and bugs fixes and also comes up with some of his own. Then incorporates them in the new version. Usually we have a few beta's before the final product is finished. Hopefully this will happen. The few suggestions I made earlier in the post I know can be done somehow, I just don't have enough knowledge where Ryan is the King on all that.

For example if there were a lyric player in MD you would push a key and the lyrics would scroll across the screen say one or two lines at a time. Push the key again and the lyrics will turn off. Of coarse it probably would not work on every song out there, but most of them. SM
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Old 8th May 2005, 00:00   #17
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Tag, yeah i explicitly set the optimizations for that specific file to 'Disabled (debug)' for both configurations. (I read the build notes file) Btw, that file is found under a directory called 'evallib', not 'expr' as in 'expr\cfunc.c'

Sherwin, all the source files in the zip above clearly state that redistributing them (modified) is ok if certain conditions are met, such as reproducing the original copyright notice and stuff... Ryan himself said that it's quite unlikely for him to work on md anymore, so i guess it's up to the community now to conclude the entire thing.
As for the speculations you asked about, i can't think of anything. There are definitely many ultra fast graphics effects (implemented through hardware nowadays) but i see little use for them in a visualization plugin. I don't know, i guess we'll just have to wait and see what Ryan will come up with in the future.
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Old 8th May 2005, 00:05   #18
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Btw what are the major bug fixes pending atm?
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Old 8th May 2005, 06:50   #19
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i think i just jizzed myself....
i may have to quit work to play with this(well that wouldnt be the only reasion) need to install visual stuido, but i guess i should take care of all these damn viris and spywhere my "isp" has been "sending" me.
damn aol users


anyway, considering the above problem i have not had a chance to look at the code yet, so i dont even know what language it is, but if it is anything like c++, i will prolly atleast add arrays, cause i've had soooo many things i've wanted to do, but needed arrays to do it. not that i can rember any of those things now, but i'm sure ither me or someone else could find a damn cool use for them.

i'm sure adding more waves and shapes wont be too hard, all you really need to do(IMHO) is find all the code that is specific to each wave/shape(mabye including functions), copy and paste it, change the varnames to wave5 or whatever nomenclature he used, add it to the menu and header(if there is one), and ... well i think thats it
but i dont relly know too much about the graffix side of things, so it might get more complated when you want to draw more than 4 waves.


wow that got a little long winded... i'm just so excited, now,with our help, milkdrop will never die.

on that note-----> keep on milking

Blah!
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Old 8th May 2005, 07:53   #20
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I am would imagine that with enough people like us asking for Ryan to help his loyal fans come up with a new version of MD, one that makes up for the long wait, and good enough to be worthy of some real excitement when it finally does show up.

I am sure there must be some very talented programers out there who could come up with a fantastic new version. But as some of you have mentioned, Ryan knows the program better than anyone on earth, and I still bet no one else has nearly as many good and clever ideas as Geiss mostly likely comes up with regularly. I mean shit....how many other visualization plugins or programs even come close to Ryan's work especially Milkdrop? Nothing comes close, and if it does then it usually is a program which requires a whole buttload of disc-space, massive memory and other system properties, compared to how efficiently all of Ryan's stuff runs.

So that leads me to worry if who ever creates a new version will maintain the same level of quality that Ryan would, as well as some cool new features.

I say we all swamp Geiss's email inbox for him to come back at least just for this one special new MD version before he leaves it to other programers. I think he might just do it for the simple sake that we have all waiting for this one so much longer than we have for any other past versions. That is true, isn't it?

Seriously friends....I think its worth a try, and if he kept getting the same kind of request from his fans, I would bet he would do it just to be a nice guy. Unless he did not have the time needed for it. But I have faith and optimism .....and I know that positive thinking such as faith does effect reality more than most people think.

Why am I so fanatical over Milkdrop I ask myself now? I guess the reason is because to me it represents a completely pure creative escape from normal reality, while allowing my mind freedom to think about anything it chooses. It does a great job at lightly stimulating my mind with dancing colors, as well as seeming to have a mildly mind opening effect.
MD is very much just pure expression from more than just one or two artists, but for anyone who wants to take some time to learn how to use this unique kind of canvas.
So that is why I enjoy making Milkdrop such a big deal. Its the same reason rich people make a big deal out of priceless works of art by pretending to actually appreciate pictures they have already seen in school text books, which most children take as very boring or ugly. Yet none of those million dollar paintings have very bright colors. Neither do they dance to music!!!

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Old 9th May 2005, 04:06   #21
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Keep living on, MD, and keep writing presets mates, never let the fever die

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Old 9th May 2005, 10:41   #22
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Yin, I think you found one or two of the bugs and one that I found is sometimes and I mean rarely some of the code does not catch in MD, I have only notice it on a couple of presets so far, but if you start the same preset again it gets all the code. So it is not a constant. Also on the original 1.04 I have notice some presets at different fps each time you start them and that is always with the same settings and processor usage. It is not much difference only 2 or 3 fps. It is far beyond me why this is but I thought I would point these out and to me they are very minor flaws. I do believe MD can be made to run even faster and more efficient. I am probably going to install Visual Studio 2003 or 6 and DirectX SDK and try to start learning how to make MD better. Give me at least a year or two before I will be of any use or knowledgeable enough though. That is if I decide to install it again and start learning after my last format because I am very lazy now. But to be honest I just hope and pray that Ryan comes back and I do have faith that he will. For now I still love MD just the way it is. SM
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Old 9th May 2005, 13:29   #23
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I honestly don't want to hassle Ryan into doing this. He knows it is opensource now.

I imagine the first thing is to tweak it all to run in native DX9 and iron out the multimon support issues. I'll be having a proper look at this in a few weeks time. But I have other vis work in OPenGL and stuff on atm but I will be devote soem time to good old MD.

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Old 9th May 2005, 22:26   #24
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SM, the decrease in framerate is because of the extra text feedback(fps, preset name etc) A single FPS counter, drops the framerate by 20, turn it off and the preset boosts. I hadn't seen that since v1.03. Anyway, i've been looking at the code recently but i don't have the time to go through it more thoroughly, not to mention fix any bugs! Good luck if you're thinking about it seriously though.
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Old 10th May 2005, 03:03   #25
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x(0)=i
x(1)=want
x(2)=arrays!

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Old 10th May 2005, 06:12   #26
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well i quit my job, got my comp reformated and visual studio installed finaly. but then they begged me to come back, so i gave in(do have bills to pay)
anyway, this doesnt look too too bad, gonna take some studying time, lots of code to read!

at the very least we can learn more about how milkdrop works. i think i found where decides witch transion to use between presets and what each transion does.

oh and is there a plan for how to handle this updating? if diffrent people work on this how will it be compiled in to a single version, and what nomenclature will be used?

Blah!
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Old 10th May 2005, 10:50   #27
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I haven't looked at the conditions under which the MD source was released, but how it usually works is that somebody steps up (or the originator of the project picks somebody or whatever) as the maintainer, and hosts a forum, newsgroup, mailing list, or what-have-you where people wishing to contribute send patches. The maintainer merges in the patches and keeps the "official" source up to date, and is often (though not always) also the lead developer, and decides what gets in and what doesn't, and sets policies for coding styles and APIs and whatnot.
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Old 10th May 2005, 14:00   #28
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Long time no see unchained.

Yeah no doubt we can have a sourceforge type template to it. Although I am a bit surprised they released it at all in some ways now a WMP version of MilkDrop can be made suppose and out of respect to Nullsoft/Winamp I would prefer it to be kept on the Winamp platform.

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Old 16th May 2005, 12:52   #29
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Rovastar, since I am sure you are pretty much in tune with all the latest news and development on not only presets but a new version. Whether or not Geiss has anything to do with it, when do you supposed we can all see a new version of MD?
Also do you think it will be noticeably nicer than 1.04. Oh and what is the deal with the Milkdrop resource website? It seems like hasn't been really changed much for a while now.
One more question I almost forgot to ask. Since you made it clear that Ryan wont have much to do with the development of 1.05, but can we still expect a good worthy upgrade to 1.04? Thanks ahead of time for your response and thoughts about these things.
PEACE

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Old 16th May 2005, 14:16   #30
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I don't know if Ryan will be involved I doubt it. I think it is unfair to hassle him to update it. I'll have a look myself in the coming weeks and add a few twists to it.

My Milkdrop website. Yeah it is due an update.

It has started to have been ported already it is on the Xbox now. http://www.xboxmediacenter.com/

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Old 20th May 2005, 21:06   #31
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Hi Rova,

sad as it is, Winamp is -as of yet- a dead platform. Like Justin Frankel said, only one person is working at Nullsoft at the moment...basically, the company is gone also.

What i'm looking forward to is a native Foobar2000 plugin made from the released source code.

Even if they open-sourced Winamp, its still an outdated platform for a multimedia player these days. Thats the reason why former Nullsoft employee Peter Pawlowski decided to write his own player software.
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Old 21st May 2005, 10:58   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by Burrit0
Hi Rova,

sad as it is, Winamp is -as of yet- a dead platform. Like Justin Frankel said, only one person is working at Nullsoft at the moment...basically, the company is gone also.
while development is obviously no longer spearheaded by the old crew (since they are all departed), there is a new crew taking care of business now.

Quote:
What i'm looking forward to is a native Foobar2000 plugin made from the released source code.
by all means, if people want to compile it to work in foobar they are now able to, since its licensed as such.

Quote:
Even if they open-sourced Winamp, its still an outdated platform for a multimedia player these days.
I dont see why, its still got a much larger market share than many media players out there. whats outdated? it has far more functionality than any other media player in the world due to its extensive plugin archive? I fail to see what is missing here.

Quote:
Thats the reason why former Nullsoft employee Peter Pawlowski decided to write his own player software.
peter can (and has) do whatever he likes. foobar isnt open source either. i'd be more worried about who owns foobar at this time than anything else. its market share is certainly not something to be concerned about. its a good product, but its very niche.

Obviously, the point here, is that by open sourcing portions of winamp, they are allowing for people to contribute to the project in ways they couldn't before.

What you have now is a set up that allows for geiss (sidenote: hey geiss, you missed breakfast with me and steve at brazil weekend before last, bitch.) to work on milkdrop again, justin/francis/mig to work on avs again, and hopefully, pending inclusion, the mlipod plugin which has will/justin as lead developers right now.

thats also not including the fact that winamp's installer is open source and headed up by kichik.

and finally, to round the list off of "active developers working on winamp", we have dro working on jtfe (also not employed by nullsoft), and technically the hotkeys plugin was also built by kichik aswell during one night of boring conversation between developers.

hope that about clears things up. yes, we all know its not as it was, but it still has a clear direction, and development pending.

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Old 26th May 2005, 20:04   #33
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Hey CraigF,

thanks for the update! You seem to be very -in the know- about the current situation with Winamp.

The old crew is gone - but no new "crew" is working on the current incarnation of Winamp. Only bugs/security issues get fixed for the time beeing because AOL can't let them stay. Thats mainly because Winamp is their property and is widely used by millions of people worldwide.

What i miss about Winamp since Justins anouncement of Winamps death is a real "development" around the application.

About Foobar's ownership:
"Foobar2000's ownership is most certainly not going anywhere, and neither is its freeware status." -Peter

I don't know Peter in person. I think he is not easy to work with sometimes. What i know about Peter is that he's an excellent programmer who knows his stuff. He worked on some plugins like DirectSound output that really let Winamp shine back in the days...
My conclusion about Winamps outdated-ness is the plugin architecture and Peter's comments about it on the Foobar2k board.
Its just that i trust Peter in this regard. Its a 10+ year architecture that gives you headaches as a developer and just isn't state-of-the-art anymore from a "geek" perspective, imho.

"to make long story short, i got tired of the way things are done in nullsoft - no main sourcecode access for me, and winamp3 media playback core being designed someone who wrote a janky non-modular player once and now thinks he's leet enough to happily ignore any feedback coming from more experienced people (and major shit not getting fixed between versions). i'm completely abandoning any winamp development (unless as my contract states, some major problem appears in code i got paid for); IMO it will do them better if someone with main sourcecode access replaces me. also, i'm starting to believe that it will do them better if they finally get decent competition in terms of functionality." -Peter

"...perhaps you should spend 3 years of your life on hacking winamp's plugin system, then you would understand certain things better." -Peter

"there will be no winamp legacy junk in fb2k." -Peter

Examples of missing Winamp features:
-daisy-chaining of plugins
-integration into MS MediaCenter
-native AAC and lossless support
-native container format support (Matroska etc.)
-native mp3 APEv2 tag support (ID3v1 is limited, ID3v2 stinks)
-native CD DAE (with secure mode)
-native support of more then two audio channels!
-a "no skin" mode (i prefer a consistent user interface over fancy graphics, wait for Longhorn to have a pretty desktop!)
-native replaygain support
-working centralized titleformatting

Don't get me wrong, i'm no troll. You can have your Winamp and i have my Foobar, no problem there. Its just that i don't think Milkdrop has a future under Winamp.

In this regard, the opensource release of Milkdrop is the best thing that happened in years in the world of audio players, imho! I hope it'll ported to many, many platforms/players out there...

Regards,
Burrit0
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Old 26th May 2005, 20:48   #34
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Um, screw 'progress' we're still using winamp 3.

Why?

Because software nowadays has SO MUCH FLUFF. We still use older versions of software all the time.

Because of there proccesser/ram loads, new software wants to do everything for you all at once most of the times.

(we're still using software from 1996 to edit samples)

Winamp 3 does everything we need a player to do.

Milkdrop? Me and Eo.S got tired of not having pixal shaders a long time ago, so we made a milkdrop clone/update that has them.

(It looks bad ass)
http://www.eos4life.com/RM/DoubleCFractal.jpg
http://www.eos4life.com/RM/RMvisualization-clouds.jpg
http://www.eos4life.com/RM/RMvisualization-lighting.jpg
http://www.eos4life.com/RM/RMvisualization-tangents.jpg
http://www.eos4life.com/RM/RMvisualization-texture.jpg
(Those are OLLLD shots, but I'm to lazy/stoned currently to post more =)

We still program milkdrop alot though because we can spend 5 min on a preset and end up with something bomb ass.

(thanks Ryan, you've created the greatest bordem killer)
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Old 26th May 2005, 23:00   #35
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If you love foobar2000 so much, why are you here? You've made your case and your decision, move on please
We'll be over here making new features and such and working on our new core as we get time and resources.
I wonder if the next thing we open-source will cause such a slam/flame? Makes me wonder if we should even bother.

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Old 27th May 2005, 00:18   #36
Phat
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Ewwww, this looks ugly...

Btw, who are you people?

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Old 27th May 2005, 02:36   #37
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Wait, so now milkdrop is on xbox. But does this mean that since nullsoft the .milk files that come with winamp 5.0 were never really updated, does that hold true for xbox MD. That would be so infuriating if all the ridiculously badass presets that have been posted in this forum over the last year by those few of use still developing them are just not in xbox MD at all.

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Old 27th May 2005, 02:53   #38
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I'd like to call out to all preset makers... Who want to be in the 5.093 or 5.1 release of Winamp with their new / updated .milk's. If someone would like to make a community pack and also make a list of .milks that should be removed, please let me know.

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Old 27th May 2005, 03:19   #39
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Check my BLTC, its a good few months old, I havn't been checking the forums recently... but it's a rather mind blowing pack. I've had my best buddy who was tripping on a low level of acid tell me to turn it off because it was way too cool.

Like music? Like milkdrop? You need a BLTC sandwich.
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Old 27th May 2005, 03:28   #40
Eo.S.
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na, that's to old.

Me and Eo.S will do it, I pretty sure I have everything.
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