Old 20th November 2000, 03:32   #1
flatmatt
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Shockwave has never EVER worked on my computer. I don't know why. DIE EVIL MACROMEDIA BASTARDS!!!!!

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Old 20th November 2000, 04:58   #2
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darn...I thought you were talking about a porn clip... oh well

tee hee..
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Old 20th November 2000, 05:05   #3
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by flatmatt:
DIE EVIL MACROMEDIA BASTARDS!!!!!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not a damn thing wrong with Flash, must be operator error.



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Old 21st November 2000, 00:15   #4
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Flash works just dandy on my computer, but I still agree: DAMN YOU FLASH!!

I hate all this fancy website graphical multimedia crap! Real web designers use notepad!!
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Old 21st November 2000, 03:50   #5
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getting 2 things mixed up:

flash is not an editor, but a program that uses vector based graphics for an interactive twist on any website.

notepad is an html editor, allowing you to type out your entire webpage using nothing but pure raw html commands. you still have to embed the flash movie using html commands.

[img]http://operationpez.***********/notepad.gif[/img]

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Old 21st November 2000, 04:55   #6
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i love when people talk about things they have no clue about... flash is completely different from shockwave...and oh yeah, what WolfieD said is exactly right...you can't create fuckin flash shit with notepad, you have to go out and buy flash

and real web designers don't use fuckin notepad...they use a program like dreamweaver (another fine macromedia program)


fools...

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Old 21st November 2000, 04:56   #7
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what the hell...i'm considered a junior member? woah...
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Old 21st November 2000, 05:00   #8
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I use homestead so I don't have to do Html. My friend has a dreamweaver craq. Is Is it any good to use?

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Old 21st November 2000, 05:04   #9
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i have the DW3 crack, but I use Microsoft FrontPage combined with Notepad for easy editing.

one thing you got wrong, ike...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>you have to go out and buy flash<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

no more further questions.

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Old 21st November 2000, 06:40   #10
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I would reccomend Dreamweaver above any other editor, except perhaps Adobe Golive 5. The newest UltraDev version is the bees knees... specially when working with ASP and backend data systems.

Flash is also a darn spiffy program. I did a complete web site in flash once. It was a commercial one too! Heh... well it was an interesting challenge. The thing to remember about flash is that it saves a hell of a lot of hassle in the long run. Especially when you stop to consider how many different browsers and DOM's there are floating around now...ouch... Having to write code in triplicate is a goddamn pain.. sheesh.

Also Flash is bundled with all the latest browsers so you proberly already have it. Even some of the more interesting PDA OS's web browser implementations are integrating flash. Even if you do have to download it, the player takes maybe 10 seconds to download on a 56k connection... 10 mins for shockwave... don't get the two confused!

In short Flash is no longer the "plugin" nightmare, but a pretty standard application for vector based web design.

As for Notepad... well hell it's kind of like using Paint to do all your graphics instead of Photoshop... it's possible and perhaps even quicker in some cases but by hell it's just silly! (ahem)

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Old 21st November 2000, 15:35   #11
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I'd like to bitch about frontpage - I didn't pay for it, actually my dad's school did, but we actually DO have the full version, but it expires in X days b/c we have to register on the internet. THIS IS A BITCH! Not only do I not like registering, but I CAN'T register anymore b/c I format so much and MicroSHIT doesn't let me register more than twice. ASSHOLES!

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Old 21st November 2000, 17:17   #12
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ike00:
and real web designers don't use fuckin notepad...they use a program like dreamweaver (another fine macromedia program)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Web designers who use DreamWeaver should be shot on site.

Sorry, bad pun. 'Tis the truth nonetheless.

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Old 21st November 2000, 21:06   #13
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Dreamweaver - Photoshop - Flash.

It's what I use, and I like it.

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Old 21st November 2000, 22:39   #14
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ike00:
and real web designers don't use fuckin notepad...they use a program like dreamweaver (another fine macromedia program)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Actually, real web designers use a non-WYSIWYG editor like EVRSoft 1st Page 2000


I can't stand WYSIWYGs!!!!


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Old 22nd November 2000, 02:30   #15
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Ha ha, ReD! Silly reformaters.
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Old 22nd November 2000, 03:18   #16
flatmatt
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Okay, fine:

I hate Shockwave because it doesn't work on my piece of crap computer -AND- I hate sites that say "get Flash" when it's really Shockwave.
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Old 23rd November 2000, 00:30   #17
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ike00: I know exactly what I'm talking about. I've used both. The point I was trying to make was that I hate all these sites that put all this extra crap in. I like nice, clean, HTML code. WYSIWYG sucks...you gotta know the code.

That said, I will lighten my tone a bit. Flash in and of itself doesn't suck, it's all those people out there who have no idea how to use it properly that makes it suck....
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Old 24th November 2000, 21:05   #18
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when you have a million sites to code,ridiculous deadlines, clients phoning u bitchin about the crappiest little things u don't get the time to hand code everything....but saying that, if u use dreamweaver u really should tidy up the crap it puts in so do a bit of both

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Old 24th November 2000, 22:08   #19
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dreamweaver is real usefull... it is wysiqyg and a html editor... so you can type in html and see what it looks like.

i'm real excited about dreamweaver 4. looks awesome.
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Old 24th November 2000, 22:35   #20
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Old 24th November 2000, 22:57   #21
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WYSIWYG = Wussy wig

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Old 25th November 2000, 03:37   #22
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Transactoid:
Flash in and of itself doesn't suck, it's all those people out there who have no idea how to use it properly that makes it suck....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

you're exactly right about that one...i know quite a few people who have flash and being one of them myself, i would have to say that i am the only one who has ever spent more than 30 minutes in this program...this tells me that it is one of those programs that you spend some time in it, see what it does, learn all you can by just messing around with it, and then leave it...this is how you get crappy flash anims out of people...on the other hand, you can read the help files or, even better, get a book at your local barnes and noble and read it, as i did...because of this flash knowledge i have been able to make lots of my teachers happy


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Old 25th November 2000, 17:14   #23
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What I don't get is these flash intros on pages that are ABSOLUTELY useless and just waste my time. Simply going to the main page is fine by me...

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Old 25th November 2000, 17:31   #24
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Yeah...but http://www.woolgarhunter.com ... heh heh.... that was an intro that just had to be done! (ahem) (and before you start your bitching.... target audience are broadband users so phfttttt)

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Old 25th November 2000, 23:35   #25
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Well see, I have a cable connection, so bandwidth isn't really a concern of mine
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Old 27th November 2000, 13:42   #26
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if flash and other macromedia programs are so good then y does newcastle college england not allow any of them on any of the 5 servers? the reason is that it craps up the network and crashes all the machines each time flash is viewed. and as a programming student real designers do use notepad. the absent minded use dreamweaver because they dont know any codes in notepad because they were picked up off the street and sat infront of a pc and given a handbook that says click here and click there.

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Old 27th November 2000, 13:56   #27
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by miteau:
and as a programming student real designers do use notepad.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

real programmers don't have the time to handcode all pages, you shoud mix it up with notepad aswell as an editor if u can.
as 4 flash how does it mash up networks anyway, i've run flash off loads of servers with no problems...Flash 5 is good but u still can't beat good ol' HTML pages

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Old 27th November 2000, 17:55   #28
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flash is over used and annoying.

some is nice.

but most is just crap.

all it does is flash at you.
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Old 27th November 2000, 23:22   #29
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The way I look at it, the more variables you introduce into any given situation, the more
things that can go wrong - especcially design.

hence, I believe the "Zen" of good webpage
design is Graphics, creative use of tables,
and text. Flash and Shockwave are simply
irrelevant... and introduce more variables

What you use to create a website is also irrelevant- the only thing that matters is
the endproduct. Being a good programmer is
good to an extent of being able to make
form and commerce systems ... but don't
confuse good programming with good design.

As they are two seperate animals.

Xerxes
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Old 28th November 2000, 16:25   #30
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Xerxes:
The way I look at it, the more variables you introduce into any given situation, the more
things that can go wrong - especcially design.

hence, I believe the "Zen" of good webpage
design is Graphics, creative use of tables,
and text. Flash and Shockwave are simply
irrelevant... and introduce more variables

What you use to create a website is also irrelevant- the only thing that matters is
the endproduct. Being a good programmer is
good to an extent of being able to make
form and commerce systems ... but don't
confuse good programming with good design.

As they are two seperate animals.

Xerxes
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

THIS QUOTE WAS WRITTEN IN HTML FORMAT WHICH CAN BE WRITTEN IN NOTEPAD. WHICHIS GOOD PROGRAMMING. BTW YOUR SPELLING AINT TOO GOOD FOR A MODERATOR. :P:d :P
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Old 28th November 2000, 16:33   #31
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MITEAU:
THIS QUOTE WAS WRITTEN IN HTML FORMAT WHICH CAN BE WRITTEN IN NOTEPAD. WHICHIS GOOD PROGRAMMING. BTW YOUR SPELLING AINT TOO GOOD FOR A MODERATOR. :P:d :P<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

THISISVERYGOODTYPINGALSO
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Old 29th November 2000, 06:11   #32
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MITEAU:
THIS QUOTE WAS WRITTEN IN HTML FORMAT WHICH CAN BE WRITTEN IN NOTEPAD. WHICHIS GOOD PROGRAMMING. BTW YOUR SPELLING AINT TOO GOOD FOR A MODERATOR. :P:d :P<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Glad to see your caps lock button functions fulltime, however.



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Old 30th November 2000, 14:01   #33
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ice:
dreamweaver is real usefull... it is wysiqyg and a html editor... so you can type in html and see what it looks like.

i'm real excited about dreamweaver 4. looks awesome.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

search for ezpad it is a html editor with a preview screen - you can set the preview to use built in options or your browser in it's window as a testbed ez pad is freeware i recommend www.google.com for a search engine
it does not just have search results it can find the main site if you click "I'm Feel Lucky". its useful or go to freeware files.com and look under web tools. it evens has wizards.
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Old 2nd December 2000, 22:06   #34
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I use Metapad as a complete Notepad replacement... kicks boo-tay. (I don't use it for all web-design though; I agree with everything Xerxes said. )
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Old 12th December 2000, 05:48   #35
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Free-floating ego is a bad thing. Especially when you take a large number of people with two very different views and have them talking about those views -- "Only I am right. You, however, are a &lt;insert some random insult there, however humorous&gt;."

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>ike00 - "fools..."

iomegajaz - "Web designers who use DreamWeaver should be shot on site." (ouch! )

phisherman - "Actually, real web designers use a non-WYSIWYG editor like EVRSoft 1st Page 2000"

phisherman - "WYSIWYG = Wussy wig"

miteau - "the absent minded use dreamweaver because they dont know any codes in notepad because they were picked up off the street and sat infront of a pc and given a handbook that says click here and click there."

geoCee - "real programmers don't have the time to handcode all pages..."
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am positive, out there in this world, there are real programmers who use Notepad, and other code-oriented design suites, and there are real programmers who use WYSIWYG-oriented design suites. The idea that the only real programmers out there are the ones that use Notepad (or WYSIWYG -- it goes both ways) is baseless, and patronizing users of either just because of which they choose to support is egotistical, and frankly, immature.

I think there have been too many insults jumping back and forth here, despite how mild-mannered they are. Notepadders and WYSIWYGgers (as well as the full gamut inbetween) should try to get along, not duke it out here in the forum. It's perfectly okay to discuss why you believe one way of designing webpages is better than another, but is all of this holier-than-thou attitude really necessary?

My take is as follows, however. Feel free to slander and mock me as you wish:

Personally, I think every new media format, when used correctly -- and in moderation, mind you -- can have a positive effect on the overall layout and design of a webpage. Flash, by itself, is not something I would consider when deciding how to design a webpage. Most certainly not when considering a full-screen webpage. (Even in lower-end resolutions like 800x600, a convoluted Flash-based interface on a webpage can wreak havoc on processor time, killing the framerate and diluting the experience.)

However, as I said, moderated use of Flash can make sites more interactive; this interactivity can make those sites more enjoyable.

It's all how you use it.

As for which to choose between WYSIWYG and HTML-based web design programs, in the end I choose a mix of both.

For a very long time I used Notepad -- PURE Notepad -- to code my webpages. It was a chore, even though I didn't realize it at the time. The sheer amount of time I spent just creating the HTML code was enormous. I didn't have a problem with this at the time -- such things like onMouseOvers and other interface enhancements hadn't even come into popularity yet, and I had no need to type those in by hand yet.

As that became the norm (so to speak) I realized that I was becoming frustrated more and more with the amount of work I had to do to get things done. That's when I started looking at other programs. HomeSite, HotDog, FrontPage, DreamWeaver, I tried a good number of them.

Without getting into the specifics of each, I'll make that story short by... clipping it right out of this message. &lt;SNIP!&gt;

As for which I choose now? DreamWeaver 4. True, it is a WYSIWYG editor on the outside, but it also gives you a good amount of control over the code itself. The code-inspector has been given more focus in 4 than in previous DreamWeaver incarnations, and I'm glad for that.

Currently, I flesh out the design of sites using DreamWeaver's WYSIWYG functions. The interface is set up, the templates are put into order, the tables defined, and the graphics places. After that, I go into the Code Inspector, and take its (admittedly mangled) code and clean it up, making it something I can smile at and appreciate. All the while, I'm checking back frequently to make sure my code editing isn't affecting the original design. According to some, I may be insane or inferior, but I believe this is a fairly effective way of managing the initial creation of a site.

I think Xerxes summed it up fantastically.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Xerxes - "What you use to create a website is also irrelevant- the only thing that matters is
the endproduct."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In the end, as long as your page is fresh, cleanly coded, well designed, and fairly light on the KB's, does it really matter what you used to create it?



[This message has been edited by DJ McFox (edited December 11, 2000).]
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Old 12th December 2000, 06:40   #36
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im impressed. a new comer that has a very good head on his shoulder. I hope to be seeing more of you.

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Old 12th December 2000, 07:29   #37
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You mean that long-ass post would be worth my reading? Damnit! I was hoping I could just skip over it.
Ooh, I notice he's also a fan of video game music!
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Old 13th December 2000, 00:59   #38
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by geoCee:
real programmers don't have the time to handcode all pages<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bullshit. Web designers aren't programmers.
I don't see some crap WYSIWYG program for coding C++, do you?

I've tried Dreamweaver, and I didn't have the patience to sit through all the tutorial crap. I still use notepad to make my website, and I always will. And I recently re-designed it to remove the flash crap, retaining all functionality and design aesthetics. Granted, it's not a huge website, but my point remains.

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