Old 3rd November 2005, 14:11   #1
putnam
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ALPHA release of our x264 encoder/decoder DLLs

Cross posted from my other thread about x264.

The idea was to get x264 into NSV because it looks fantastic and works on all platforms. This means we don't have to worry about On2's proprietary VP62 format (that doesn't work on Macs) and we don't have to resort to something that costs money like WMV.

Making it work
You have to install x264+ffdshow and make sure x264 is using libavcodec for encoding/decoding in the ffdshow VFW config. Otherwise it will not work right. Be sure to check ffdshow's VFW config again if Winamp isn't working right.

x264 AND ffdshow are available on the front page at http://x264.nl

Get latest recommended ffdshow here.

Put nsv_coder_x264.dll in your NSVTools folder, and nsvdec_x264.dll in your Winamp\plugins folder.

REALLY making it work...
When some of us have some free time we'll investigate working these kinks out, but it's not really a huge topic right now. We had planned on stripping things down to just a couple of DLLs so it could be bundled with Winamp, but haven't worked on it in a while. Other priorities have come up.

If anyone wants to join in on the development and try and take this further, please let me know. My AIM is putnamc98, or you can reach me on IRC at #gbs-tv on irc.****.org.

Edit: What the hell? Why is z i r c bleeped out?

The FILEZ
IMPORTANT: These files are meant for developers and people that know what they're doing with the NSV format and NSVTools. Don't IM me asking for technical support with this, please. I've already told you everything I know in this post.

I say "alpha," just because it seems like the best term to use so everyone understands this is very much in early testing phases.

ALPHA x264 DLLs, compiled by Sabretooth (ZIP, 186KB) | mirror | mirror2 | mirror3
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Old 3rd November 2005, 16:10   #2
slavas
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How You are going handle B frames in NSV?
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Old 3rd November 2005, 17:13   #3
putnam
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Sabretooth will have to answer your question, slavas. As far as I can tell, he had a very easy time making it work. I didn't hear him complain about B-frames. Can you enlighten me on the problem you see?

Side note: What's up with your site? I was trying to pull the vp6 encoder installer from you and it's all 404. I'd really like to get that app so I can stop telling our contributors to go download the K-Lite codec pack!
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Old 3rd November 2005, 17:14   #4
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oki find "bug"

seems encoder don't care about framerate so bitrate should be adjusted accordingly, like on2's VP62 some time ago had same issue

decoder likes to crach when seeking
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Old 3rd November 2005, 20:02   #5
slavas
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re B frames
was lazy to write all down here so found good explanation here
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=80430
as nsv uses "one frame in one frame out" too and most codecs are VfW based, just VP* don't have B frames

in this encoder if i am not mistaken all frames are delayed by b frames amount, trying to find out is decoding delayed too or not

plus another "bug": seems settings are global not per profile


off course overally x264 rocks as for some time already (in avi/mp4)
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Old 5th November 2005, 00:15   #6
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"The requested URL /dev/nsv_x264.zip was not found on this server."
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Old 5th November 2005, 17:13   #7
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Ignore above; Putnam fixed the link (thanks man!).
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Old 5th November 2005, 18:29   #8
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Well, I would try it out, but whenever I try to encode a file, it immediately crashes on me... This is after installing x264 and ffdshow (Ones on the linked website).
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Old 5th November 2005, 19:18   #9
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Hrm, not here. It's slow as heck, but I encoded a 1st pass on a 50 minute video without a problem, now running the 2nd pass. I plan on doing one more, then testing the results (hooray, finally an 'nth pass' setting for NSV!). I already had x264 installed, and haven't bothered to install a newer ffdshow as mine works fine. I'll update if needed after trying this file.
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Old 5th November 2005, 20:00   #10
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Best Codec ever!!!
First try: Had problems with ffdshow.
Second try: Encoded an Anime Music Video:
Settings:
300x400 resize
24FPS
96kbps ACC+
250kbps x264
----------------------
30% Faster than VP62(Best settings)

What a quality!!!

At the start it was up to 377kbps
but after 10 seconds it moved down to 346kbps and was jumping with 1kbps up and down over the whole movie.

The quality is amazing, it was like watching the original :|
And for that i have to have it up to 500kbps with VP62.

Will test some more, hoping to see the complete version soon ^^

EDIT:
OMG, it REALY is a good codec:
The VP62 did encode and made the lines bad and pixeled, but x264 made them clean.

VP62 made the FPS go down at some times, but x264 NEVER ONCE did i see it go down.

EDIT2:
Twice have Winamp crashed while seeking in a movie, thats the first bug i have noticed ^^
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Old 5th November 2005, 21:22   #11
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krstjern: How'd you solve your ffdshow issues?
I can create nsv/264 video fine, but only VLC will play it back... and rather choppy and stutterring. Winamp simply doesn't work; appears to buffer, then nothing... doesn't display picture or sound. The ffdshow icon isn't coming up when I attempt to play it in Winamp; does yours? Maybe it's a case of Winamp not using ffdshow.

Also, does the dec dll show up anywhere in your Plugins listings in Winamp settings? (Doesn't for me). Thanks!
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Old 5th November 2005, 21:26   #12
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Well, that was my problem too, but i uninstalled ffdshow, installed it again, went into Start/ffdshow/VFW Codec configuration. And in there i went to Decoder and found H.264, right clicked it, and then "Set all stable formats to libavcodec"

That was what i did, it works for me now.
It take 1-3 seconds for the movie to apear(Probaly becouse of B-frames, i dunno) but it works ^^ And a nice quality

EDIT:
No ffdshow icon appears for me, neither when encoding or decoding(Watching)

And the dec dll should not be in the plugins list, noone of the decoding Dll's do for me.
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Old 6th November 2005, 00:09   #13
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I'm really happy to hear about the good results. We will definitely get this stuff moving along, guys

I haven't had time to test it yet, but one of you that is encoding NSVs should try streaming them to yourself with a local SC server. Does streaming function well?
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Old 6th November 2005, 01:21   #14
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krstjern: Huge thanks! That worked perfectly!

putnam: Streaming works wonderfully. We're currently working with live encoding/streaming (nsvcap); yes, it works, and works well. We're just tweaking settings to find the perfect balance of bitrate vs quality. One question; does the multipass actually work? I ran a video file through a 1st pass, nth pass, then an nth pass without updating, and the results were identicle (picture and filesize-wise) to a single pass of the same file.

The compatibility aspect of this is very encouraging; it looks like any h/x264 media player of any platform can play these files/streams as long as they know what the *.nsv extention is. For example, VideoLan understands NSV (though it only plays VP3). It also (somewhat) handles x264. So it (mostly) plays both the SC stream and encoded files of x264/NSV. I would imagine and hope that the same is true on other platforms; the VP3-compatible players that can be upgraded to x264-compatibility should have no troubles, unlike VP6.1/2.
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Old 6th November 2005, 10:34   #15
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Hm... the codec works nice and well(Extremely well) but the part where it goes up by up to 100kbps in the first 5-10 seconds botthers me, is this the NSV's or the x264 doing? And CarredPC: What other players than Winamp and a little VLC have you gotten it to play in?

EDIT:
Another thing, i haven't had ANNY sound unsync trough anny of the movies i have encoded, thats realy nice :P

EDIT2:
Just for fun i removed the first 700kb of the movie file, to see if x264 could handle a "broken" NSV file, worked like a dream ^^ Even loaded faster :P

EDIT3:
The web player(Ravetrax: AOL Streaming Video Player)
Does not work with x264, only sound come.

Last edited by krstjern; 6th November 2005 at 11:22.
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Old 6th November 2005, 14:00   #16
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This might be helpfull for the ActiveX player as well as supporting other media players for the Windows platform.

x264 Video Codec rev. 362D
Updated: 3 Nov 2005

• x264 Full package come with an installer and contains both VFW and CLI with MeGUI.

• x264 Lite package contains the CLI executable and VFW .dll with install script.


- x264 VFW version have the driverproc.def file patched to enable the VFW configuration with the rundll32.exe x264vfw.dll,Configure command line.

- x264 CLI version has MP4 output and AVIS input enabled.


http://www.free-codecs.com/download/...ideo_Codec.htm

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Old 7th November 2005, 01:22   #17
gameplaya15143
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awsome!!
downloaded the nsv dlls.. ill try them out later
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Old 7th November 2005, 22:04   #18
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i will try this out... may be what gets me back on the air...
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Old 7th November 2005, 22:21   #19
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I'd like to say again just how nice these dll's are.

After some tweaking and expirimentation, the results are simply magnificent. I find for best results, preproccess your source to the proper size and fps; this lets the encoder concentrate on quality, not resizing or frame decimation. Also, the frame decimation using x264/NSV appears to be poor, sometimes inducing a 'jerky' quality. This glitch is, of course, not present when using source of the same fps.

Big thanks to those responsible. This is the "leap" in technology we were waiting for. My 200kbps test stream is VERY watchable fullscreen, and looks darn close to 1:1 at original resolution (I use 288x224). Combining this with 28kbps AAC+ audio, no other stream of the same bandwidth can compare. I hope everyone runs with this and tests compatibility on every OS possible; I look forward to hearing the results
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Old 8th November 2005, 00:44   #20
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Im beginning the downloads now. Will be testing tonight if I can figure it out.
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Old 8th November 2005, 02:01   #21
retrostation
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ok, im sold. Very nice indeed. Will put a peercast stream up and test tomorrow if someone wouldlike to test with me. It would be great to see this become standard! Im excited again!

ooooh is very good at low bitrate, total with 64 sound!

amazing!

Last edited by retrostation; 8th November 2005 at 02:25.
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Old 8th November 2005, 03:22   #22
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Well, I've come up with some interesting results with regards to HD (1280x544, 2.35 aspect ratio, 23.976fps, 1:04 in length; a movie trailer actually) and the NSV codecs. All of the results were performed with a one-pass render of each codec and used 64kbps AACP sound. I'll start off with the most practical:

Encoder Given: 1024kbps target bitrate (incl. 64k audio)

h.264
Average Bitrate: 835kbps (189 under target)
Video Quality: Best of the three overall, but worst in the beginning, after about 10 sec into the video, it became better.

VP6.2
Average Bitrate: 905kbps (119 under target)
Video Quality: Not as good as h.264, but still comperable. h.264 still best for bitrate. Had same problem with beginning of video with lowered quality.

VP3
Average Bitrate: 901kbps (123 under target)
Video Quality: About equal to VP6, and didn't have the problem of quality at the beginning. Slightly more distortion overall though.

-------

Now for the impractical results:

Encoder Given: 3500kbps for Video, 64kbps for Audio (Around 3564 total)

h.264
Average Bitrate: 3301kbps (263 under target)
Video Quality: Best out of VP3 and VP6.2, but the bitrate is much higher, making it almost not even worth it.

VP6.2
Average Bitrate: 2277kbps (1287 under target)
Video Quality: Equal to VP3 and h.264. Slightly more distortion (in motion) than the other two, however.

VP3
Average Bitrate: 1975kbps (1589 under target)
Video Quality: Not quite as good as h.264, but for the bitrate, it is amazingly good. Overall best.

--------

Obviously you would most likely never use these results (except maybe the 1mbps ones) unless you're distributing HD content... But, I guess the idea is to see the limitations of the codecs.

I might upload the test files to my webspace if people seem interested enough. Its just a trailer of a short film I'm working on from the use of one of those new spiffy HDV cameras.
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Old 8th November 2005, 03:55   #23
retrostation
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bottom line it is or seems to be the best choice for streaming. I am very happy to dump vp3 and 6. I have waited a year for this or something like it to come out. yay!

after 4 hrs of testing I proclaim the revolution has started.
At 200kbps the full screen picture is virtually the same as the original. I am floored by this. Amazing. This is truly a great day. This is state of the art! Amazing!

Last edited by retrostation; 8th November 2005 at 05:30.
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Old 8th November 2005, 11:00   #24
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It truly is amazing, but I get best quality at 250kbps, how you guys get it down to 200? Do soem changes? And for some reason, in the first 10seconds the quality MAY go down a little, and the bitrate go up. Why is this?

retrostation:
I can test with peercast if you want.

I have also found the bets option for me:
320x240/2*3=480x360 resize
24FPS
96kbps ACC+
400kbps x264

==================
500kbps; sometimes up to 510kbps.

Quality: Can have it at full screen at almost won't see anny difference from original.

Going to test the more advance settings later.

EDIT:
To the creator of the DLL's:
If i start encoding my videos in x264, and then you some day upgrade either of the DLL's(Enc or dec) will they be incompatible?

Last edited by krstjern; 8th November 2005 at 11:39.
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Old 8th November 2005, 15:49   #25
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What needs to be done is get these bundled in winamp so the general public will not have to do a lot of steps to be able to see.. remember when everyone saw green on vp6? It didnt take long for it to catch on. I can see the demise of vp3 and 6 coming... there wont be a single vp stream listed!

I will set up a stream and peercast it. my intentions were to get back on the air with peercast as money is an issue, i can test it with peercast at the same time. WOOT!

I tweaked a few settings, installed aac+, got it down to 200 stable and full screen was beautiful! Now that most everyone who has cable has had their upload speeds increased, a high quality stream shared will not pose a problem. Although I may need to take the stream down to 150 for the most viewers.. anyone's thoughts on this?

Thanks!
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Old 8th November 2005, 17:16   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by krstjern
It truly is amazing, but I get best quality at 250kbps, how you guys get it down to 200? Do soem changes?
quality and bitrate highly deppends on content maybe their videos ar more "static"

Quote:

And for some reason, in the first 10seconds the quality MAY go down a little, and the bitrate go up. Why is this?
during 1 pass encode codec needs some time to adapt to videos parameters, doing 2pass encode quality should be more constant
Quote:

To the creator of the DLL's:
If i start encoding my videos in x264, and then you some day upgrade either of the DLL's(Enc or dec) will they be incompatible?
although i'm not author i can say that compatibility should not be problem

doing offline encoding better use the same profile ( features subset) for all files
x264 supports 3 profiles:
baseline - the most featureless encoder
main - approx baseline + CABAC and B frames
high - adds 8x8 transform (besides other features not used by nsv encoder ATM)

all other settings just tells encoder to do more "clever" decisions and is trade off between quality and time You are willing to spend.

as i wrote in this thread just be more cautious using B frames, because video is delayed (and overally shorter) by the number of B frames set in settings dialog, although using 1 b frame should be ok
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Old 8th November 2005, 19:11   #27
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Great work testing so far. slavas, if you want to work on the source, contact me.

I'm pretty sure we should be able to strip this all down to a couple of dlls so it can be bundled with Winamp.
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Old 8th November 2005, 20:58   #28
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I'm still a little new to this, what does the 8x8 do?
And what does the B-frames do? Are they just a different frame, or are they a frame holding some special info?
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Old 8th November 2005, 21:46   #29
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I know nothing of the programming side or i would offer to help. The sooner vp6 is gone the better!
lol
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Old 8th November 2005, 21:54   #30
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tested.. had it working on the first try
the encoder dll is just fine as it is... then as x264 gets better, so does h264 in nsv

as for the decoder.. other then a slight delay when the buffer fills, just before playback starts...heck.. its sill awsome
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Old 9th November 2005, 00:51   #31
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word of warning putnam. x264 is marked by videolan as very very beta, and judging by the fact that winamp refuses to bundle the latest HA recommended LAME because its beta, chances are this may well fall into the same trap.

on a personal note, im all for it. right now only quicktime seems to be offering any level of support for h.264, and well, who likes quicktime?

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Old 9th November 2005, 01:54   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by CraigF
and well, who likes quicktime?
About a zillion future video ipod users.... might like the H264/MP4 stuff that the ipod can play.

http://www.videora.com/en-us/Converter/iPod/ is a site that has free software to convert for the video ipod in H264 or mpeg4 format.

Quicktime would be a cool system, except for the retarded player.

I think Darwin is probably the most mature server for video too..... if it wasn't for the stupid player.

Of course, VLC will work....

Just because of the ipod, I think we'll see a lot of interest in h264.
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Old 9th November 2005, 02:12   #33
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Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead. If I have the time in the coming days I will have the first full time stream online.

I wasnt going to be back on full time until mid dec, but oh well. Have half the streams listed on the yp in x264 and you will see how quickly they bundle. Thats how excited I am.

Who's with me? CHARGE!
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Old 9th November 2005, 02:14   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by CraigF
word of warning putnam. x264 is marked by videolan as very very beta, and judging by the fact that winamp refuses to bundle the latest HA recommended LAME because its beta, chances are this may well fall into the same trap.

on a personal note, im all for it. right now only quicktime seems to be offering any level of support for h.264, and well, who likes quicktime?
Isnt nsv still beta after all these years?

lol
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Old 9th November 2005, 04:49   #35
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Well, technically speaking NSV is beta... but it seems to have been adopted by the ShoutCast community quite well.

I can't seem to get decent video with about 120 kbps dedicated for video (28kbps for audio, 150 total). It still seems that VP6.2 is the victor for that. However, I haven't edited the default advanced settings which would probably help. I think that some of use who have made stunning developments with x264 should post any modifications they've made to the default settings (other than bitrate, obviously). And for what resolution/framerate.
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Old 9th November 2005, 08:52   #36
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Quote:
Settings:
300x400 resize
24FPS
96kbps ACC+
250kbps x264
At such low bitrate you're better off giving more bits to the video (300kpbs) and compress the sound more (48kpbs AAC+ PS)
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Old 9th November 2005, 10:32   #37
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Yea, youre rigth, but I mostly encode Music Videos with that bitrate, adn the music is the most important, almost...
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Old 10th November 2005, 00:42   #38
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So lets get a few streams listed for testing... want to?
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Old 10th November 2005, 15:57   #39
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I tried one yesterday, but noone stayedlonger than 10 sec, probaly wasn't able to play x264.
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Old 11th November 2005, 00:00   #40
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will do some experiments this weekend, frankly i'm shocked this thread has not produced a hundred replies...
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