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View Poll Results: is there room for conceptual/arty skins in winamp
yes 9 39.13%
yes - so long as winamp is still easy to use 13 56.52%
maybe to an extent 0 0%
no 1 4.35%
Voters: 23. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 13th October 2002, 04:01   #1
jonny raine
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conceptual/arty skins

so then, hows about this conceptual art skin that has popped up for winamp2: "messed up". yes i was the one who made it, so what do you think. am i just wasting your/their time? (whose time is it anyway?) or am i really on to something. i have also seen "tomamp" which i think is really good/conceptual/arty. so what do you think, is there room for art in winamp.
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Old 13th October 2002, 04:31   #2
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if it screws up ease of use, then it's screwed up the function of a wa skin. otherwise, do what you want, but it better have a nice winshade version!

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Old 13th October 2002, 17:14   #3
jonny raine
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oh and by the way

i posted a skin called weiss and it was a purely white skin. now it didn't get published presumably because it was impossible to use. should it be published? should i be shot?
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Old 13th October 2002, 17:57   #4
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Let's move this somewhere more fitting, ladies and gentlemen, allow me to introduce the author of...

http://classic.winamp.com/skins/deta...onentId=123132

/commence....
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Old 13th October 2002, 18:02   #5
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well...

...at least the comment was interesting.

i love skins that make me laugh
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Old 13th October 2002, 18:19   #6
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Let's not forget that we are talking about skinning an application, i.e. changing it's look while retaining the functionality. If you just want to see a cool picture, make a background, use IrfanView with "Always on top" or, even better, make an avs or milkdrop preset. But if you want to give winamp a "different" look, go ahead, you're welcome, it's been done before:

http://www.1001winampskins.com/skin_...ml?skin_id=977
http://www.1001winampskins.com/skin_...l?skin_id=2418
http://www.1001winampskins.com/skin_...l?skin_id=2312
are similar in some way to what you made, but with recognizable buttons, numbers and so.

The problem is not that we don't like your skin, the problem is it's not a skin, it's a hindering bunch of colours.

Many who live deserve death, some who die deserve life - can you give it to them?
Then be not so quick to deal out death in judgement.
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Old 13th October 2002, 19:06   #7
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And if I had been the reviewer on that one, it would have never been published, it is totally unusable.

I might still nix it, but let's see first how many 5 star comments you can get on it besides your own.

[edit] I will still nix it, I have disallowed skins that were more usuable than this piece of crap. This is not art, kids in kindergarden produce art. [\edit]
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Old 13th October 2002, 19:16   #8
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Is there room for conceptual/arty skins? Hell yeah. They're the best ones. Is there room for your non-skin? not really - it's stupid. It comes from the extremely primitive school of thought that declares that anything which is 'conceptual' or takes a different perspective is inherently artistic and has artistic value. That sort of art is appreciated almost exclusively by people with active minds yet very dull souls - people who have no real idea of what art is. People who don't realise that the primary goal of art is to communicate beauty and profoundness, and not to be a physical manifestation of some lame-arse pseudo-intellectual concept. In other words, people who can't see the forest for the trees.
And, on top of this, as Jellby pointed out, skinning an application has a practical side. If this practical side is ignored, the skin becomes useless. All that's left is an empty, pseudo-intellectual mess.

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Old 13th October 2002, 19:43   #9
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this is why i hate the post-modern movement, anyone thinks they can be a fucken pacasso, if you can't make a realy functional, realistic, and genaraly publicaly acceptable art, then doing "conceptual" stuff has no meaning or hidden deepness to it, its just b/c you cant make art for shit!

dame all you hippys, die, die, die!!!!!!!
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Old 13th October 2002, 23:28   #10
jonny raine
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i would like to argue back that this has become a beautiful thing by creating a randomeness in a limited environment. you argue that it has to function properly, yet because it defies this and does not limit itself, it allows for true, open and free expression. this is what makes it a beautiful thing. anyhow, does art have to be about beauty. if you ask the art world, art can now be anything. the question my friends is not whether or not it is art, in fact i don't think there is a question at all. i guess i am just trying to see how you people, the viewers of my art, respond to my art. do i ask you to understand, well no, could you ever fully understand? i very much doubt it. i hope you can one day see past your limited and closed minded view of what art is.
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Old 13th October 2002, 23:56   #11
amp-phibian
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form vs. function

functionality next to nil other than the fact that alot of the people here have an idea as to placement and stuffs but to average winamp users its improbable at best

the form is easily kindergartenish at best
while it may receive a point in artistic merit you are choosing to "skin" an application , meaning it should be usable beyond the fact of "well if you know its there...."

i whole hartedly believe that not all things must not stand out
i mean a posbar that has no slider and is drawn with no discernable features is still a posbar it still works. and while the same case can be made for all parts of a wa skin that is not the case.
to take the time to "hide" functionally labelled cbuttons
shufrep buttons and other "essential functions" of winamp would have taken little if no more time and been rather easy to do in this
hodge-podge of a collage that you wish to call art. and all but ended the debate i mean how hard would a 1 pix wide set of eq bars have been or to place an arrow on play and still not have it stick out of "your vision", what you see as conceptual


con·cep·tion Pronunciation Key (kn-spshn)
n.

1. a. Formation of a viable zygote by the union of the male
sperm and female ovum; fertilization.
b. The entity formed by the union of the male sperm and female
ovum; an embryo or zygote.

2. a. The ability to form or understand mental concepts and
abstractions.
b. Something conceived in the mind; a concept, plan, design, idea,
or thought. See Synonyms at idea.

3. Archaic. A beginning; a start.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Middle English concepcioun, from Old French conception, from Latin concepti, conceptin-, from conceptus. See concept.]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
con·ception·al adj.
con·ceptive adj.
con·ceptive·ly adv.


is coming off as more chaotic than conceptual. and falls loosely only in definition 1 (i.e it's fucked) you saw abstractions and went wild with no clear thought as to what you were doing.

i use the term conceptional in my web site design with full thought to all aspects of that definition.

your idea of conceptual "art" falls slightly short because you chose an application as your medium or your canvas, and you rendered it virtually useless.

it would have a lot more merit and weight in an artistic sense had you just saved it jpeg or gif or png and found some webspace that would host it as art

Last edited by amp-phibian; 14th October 2002 at 00:18.
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Old 14th October 2002, 00:16   #12
jonny raine
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in response to amp-phibian

your definition of conception includes 'the ability to form or understand mental concepts and abstractions'
is this not what i have done. i have created/formed something abstract and somehting that was from my mind. the concept i was presenting was that of chaos in a structured place. this is reflective of my personal political stance, one of a individual anarchist stuck in a so called democracy.
i was totally aware of what i was trying to achieve, but it went beyond this to provoke arguments against what i was doing. very few people felt they could accept this either as a skin or as art. radicals are never accepted.
then the reason as to why i didn't just save it as a bmp/jpeg is beacause winamp took bmps and formed them into a skin. placing parts from different bmps ontop of each other. i didn't know which parts it was taking, i could've found out but chose not to. then also winamp is functioning and causing a whole new dimension in my piece. eg. the spectrum thingy moves and the buttons can be pressed.
i can totally justify it all to myself, but as i said before, you probably will never understand.
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Old 14th October 2002, 00:56   #13
amp-phibian
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wouldn't understand????

upon re-reding my post thrice

i still cannot see how you say i dont uhderstand


Quote:
while it may receive a point in artistic merit ...

i whole heartedly believe that not all things must not stand out...

to take the time to "hide" functionally labelled cbuttons
shufrep buttons and other "essential functions" of winamp would have taken little if no more time and been rather easy to do in this
hodge-podge of a collage that you wish to call art. and all but ended the debate i mean how hard would a 1 pix wide set of eq bars have been or to place an arrow on play and still not have it stick out of "your vision", what you see as conceptual


your idea of conceptual "art" falls slightly short

it would have a lot more merit and weight in an artistic sense
i tried my best to just not flame that monstrosity as an unusable piece of junk and see it for what its worth as a matter of fact i even took the time to d/l'd it from a seperate thread that was posted by the reviewer seven hours prior to you starting this one

"why bother"
http://forums.winamp.com/showthread....hreadid=109573

i mean if you expect to be called the next picasso by anyone
your off your rocker

yes you did have spectrum moving and eq bars and sliders and depressed states of buttons all of which take away from what artistic merit of this unusable piece of junk
and it is funny that had you had any experience with skinning winamp you could have pulled this off
and ill i tried to impress upon you is that you chose the wrong medium/canvas to display this

nice try im glad i grabbed it but i think it may just be pulled from the database as unusable because ive seen other skins i thought as usable once d'ld that were at one time deemed unusable and unpublished without a good what for from the author

lost highway by d/b is a perfect example of a fight of usability vs. unusability (side note glad you won that one d/b)

in the end usability and functionality are the keys, and while your skin may function because of winamp.exe it is not funtional and while i or others may be able to use it from experience it is unusable
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Old 14th October 2002, 02:51   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by jonny raine
i would like to argue back that this has become a beautiful thing by creating a randomeness in a limited environment. you argue that it has to function properly, yet because it defies this and does not limit itself, it allows for true, open and free expression. this is what makes it a beautiful thing. anyhow, does art have to be about beauty. if you ask the art world, art can now be anything. the question my friends is not whether or not it is art, in fact i don't think there is a question at all. i guess i am just trying to see how you people, the viewers of my art, respond to my art. do i ask you to understand, well no, could you ever fully understand? i very much doubt it. i hope you can one day see past your limited and closed minded view of what art is.
I am an artist myself (for lack of a better and less-abused term). I have an IQ of 148, and a degree in cinema theory and in philiosophy, where among other things, I studied the philoshophy of Art. If you want to interest me in a debate about what art is, you'd better come up with something better than that. As I said in my first post:
-this is pseudo-intellectual rubbish. Anyone could have grabbed this simplistic concept and had the naivete to think it made them a "radical".
-should art be about beauty and profoundness? No, only the good and truly valuable art. Abstract art can be either, or both, so can conceptual art. But yours is just crap
-If you think making "randomness in a structured environment" is something new, or special, or if you have done it in any kind of technically admirable way, you're way off.

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Old 14th October 2002, 03:04   #15
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art?

i don't want to debate art...

we've just spent a whole year discussing what art is on my degree course. i've come to the conclusion that we cannot set definite boundaries as to what art actually is. i don't think that it has to be something beautiful, i don't think it has to be about pushing boundaries. and i don't really want to engage in a debate about what art is especially with someone who won't call themselves an outright artist. oh and by the way, when i refer to art, i mean fine art, not the broader arts. and don't go suggesting that fine art is only painting and sculpture cos thats just closed mindedness.

anyway back to the skin. it was quite spontaneous, although i did think of the idea quite in advance of producing it. in a way, this was just a sketch, to see what would happen, to see other peoples reactions, to see how it might be improved.

i have come up with new ideas. ideas that i think will satisfy you who are saying it wouldn't function. ideas that will work with similar themes & concepts. hopefully you might actually like them!! but then i don't really care if no-one does!

enough of the debating for me, i'm going to bed
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Old 14th October 2002, 03:05   #16
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oh by the way

db

i had a look at your 'lost highway' skin and i thought it was fantastic.
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Old 14th October 2002, 05:26   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by e-raser
this is why i hate the post-modern movement, anyone thinks they can be a fucken pacasso, if you can't make a realy functional, realistic, and genaraly publicaly acceptable art, then doing "conceptual" stuff has no meaning or hidden deepness to it, its just b/c you cant make art for shit!

dame all you hippys, die, die, die!!!!!!!
you dont know what you're talking about do you? maybe it has a hidden meaning to the artist that you just dont see. and who says a skin has to have a meaning? what does your ugly pimply face skin mean? and why is someone who makes post modern art a hippie? and wtf is wrong with hippies? dont respond until you can answer all these questions without saying something stupid like "cuz they're fucking hippies! dame them!"
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Old 14th October 2002, 07:20   #18
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Lets not talk about art, since everybody has his own meaning. But this skin is just not useable, and there for should not been published in the first place.

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Old 14th October 2002, 07:47   #19
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Re: art?

Quote:
Originally posted by jonny raine
i don't really want to engage in a debate about what art is especially with someone who won't call themselves an outright artist. oh and by the way, when i refer to art, i mean fine art, not the broader arts. and don't go suggesting that fine art is only painting and sculpture cos thats just closed mindedness.
The reason I don't call myself an outright artist is because I believe that it is not really for me to decide whether what I do is Art. I am a filmmaker. Just as a person who makes paintings is a painter. But whether either of us are "artists" is not for us to decide. For who then? I don't know. I guess for the people to decide, or time, or both. I don't believe that every one who picks up a paintbrush, or a chisel, or a camera, has the right to call themselves an artist. I mean, I do consider myself an artist, but I use the term with a lot of reservation.
And I'm the last person to consider Fine Art a narrow category which only includes painting and sculpture, or something like that. Actually, I think that "Art", if it can be defined at all, is something of a a spectrum, which includes a great many things. In fact, I don't see too much difference between a bird that sings (by employing a certain pattern of sounds) to attract a mate and a person who makes music (also by employing a certain pattern of sounds) also to produce something attractive to other people. Art is the whole damn lot. However, the quality of art on this spectrum differs a lot. And I ,personally, am no fan of art which is purely, or mostly, cerebral. The intellect is not the most interesting thing, despite what people may think, and art which is meant to primarily stimulate the intellect is poor in comparison to something which is meant to stimulate something deeper.
Anyway, here I am blabbing away at something I said I wasn't going to talk about. Just didn't want you to misunderstand me. No hard feelings, either, although I think you know that - I was just answering your question.


/////By the way, which TomAmp were you talking about? There are about 4 different ones. I assume you're talking about the black and white one. If that's the case, you might like some of these:

http://classic.winamp.com/skins/deta...ponentId=49837
http://classic.winamp.com/skins/deta...mponentId=3052
http://classic.winamp.com/skins/deta...onentId=102251
http://classic.winamp.com/skins/deta...ponentId=23061

Sow a thought, reap an action; sow an action, reap a habit; sow a habit, reap a character; sow a character, reap a destiny.

All my skins: @ winamp.com @ 1K1WS @ Deviantart.com

My latest Flash Project: BreathingEarth.net

Last edited by StillWater; 14th October 2002 at 08:18.
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Old 14th October 2002, 08:55   #20
e-raser
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Quote:
Originally posted by _Blackdog_
dont respond until you can answer all these questions without saying something stupid like "cuz they're fucking hippies! dame them!"



................
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Old 14th October 2002, 09:10   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by _Blackdog_
who says a skin has to have a meaning? what does your ugly pimply face skin mean?
cuz, if your NOT going to make something functional, or interesting to the layman you are left with nothing else but to excuse such a piece of work as "having a hidden or deeper meaning". There are few meaningless works of art that i can think of, and even when someone does something without purpose and then calls it art, one can say the purpose is that there is no purpose. This is what is happening here in this skin, but it takes more than just wipping up a random piece or art that justifies such things. what makes a scribble from a master minimalist painter worth so much vs. a toddler?
THE POINT IM TRYING TO MAKE IS, WITH OUT A NAME OR BACKROUND TO MAKE SUCH BOLD STATMENTS THE STATMENT FALLS ON ITS ASS, NO MORE VALUBLE THAN A TODDLERS SCRIBBLES IN A COLORING BOOK.

this skin is nothing more than a vain attempte to trick pple into thinking that high art is just a random act of creativity
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Old 14th October 2002, 09:11   #22
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i go take a prozac now

....dame hippys
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Old 14th October 2002, 15:20   #23
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Re: Re: art?

Quote:
Originally posted by ¤db¤

/////By the way, which TomAmp were you talking about? There are about 4 different ones.
No, surely he means this Tom Amp...
http://classic.winamp.com/skins/deta...ponentId=63439

Hands up if you remember Tom ?

/waits for Simon to insert link...
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Old 14th October 2002, 15:28   #24
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I remember him

http://www.abouttom.com.


click image to see a larger version

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Old 14th October 2002, 16:05   #25
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We all love Tom (yeah right).
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Old 14th October 2002, 19:26   #26
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ewwww, maximum exposure
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Old 14th October 2002, 19:57   #27
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Re: Re: Re: art?

Quote:
Originally posted by Mrs Jones
Hands up if you remember Tom ?
Oh, me! Choose me. Please.

Did he like his skin that took, oh gosh, 30 seconds?

=============

You can debate what "art" is until the cows come home. Winamp skinning isn't "art" in general, but rather a form of "art" whereby a new graphical interface is created. By definition, an interface is a method of interaction between man and machine by means of a graphical (rather than textual) method. Thus the interfaces raison d'être is to perform a function following user input or to pass a message to said user. Or to cut the crap, it's meant to be usable by creation.

Is there an echo in here, or is it just me

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Old 14th October 2002, 21:15   #28
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Re: in response to amp-phibian

Quote:
Originally posted by jonny raine
then the reason as to why i didn't just save it as a bmp/jpeg is beacause winamp took bmps and formed them into a skin. placing parts from different bmps ontop of each other. i didn't know which parts it was taking, i could've found out but chose not to. then also winamp is functioning and causing a whole new dimension in my piece. eg. the spectrum thingy moves and the buttons can be pressed.
You can call that art if you want, but it's not winamp skinning, it's winamp screwing. You are not designing a skin for winamp, you are using winamp as a "randomizer", and that's different. You have to understand that things like that have no place in winamp.com/skins, but you could try publishing it in deviantart (not in application skins, though, but somewhere else).

My personal view is that that's not art. The first painter that thought "hey, I'm gonna make a radically new painting, randomly brushing with every colour" had some merit, he made something different, he maybe tried to communicate a feeling... The second one was a moron. This is like something I read: "the first man who compared a woman with a rose was a poet, the second was a twee, the third was a plain idiot." But that's my personal view.

Many who live deserve death, some who die deserve life - can you give it to them?
Then be not so quick to deal out death in judgement.

Last edited by Jellby; 14th October 2002 at 21:51.
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Old 14th October 2002, 21:38   #29
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Re: Re: Re: art?

Quote:
Originally posted by Mrs Jones


No, surely he means this Tom Amp...
http://classic.winamp.com/skins/deta...ponentId=63439

Hands up if you remember Tom ?

/waits for Simon to insert link...
no, i actually meant Tomamp by toomas kilgi. its a fantastic skin. i'm actually collaborating with him to make a skin together. we're making 2 skins eperately and then combining them to create something quite unusual due around early nov. sometime.

also check out newer versions of all messed up soon to come. these ones might actually be useable and i will think more about aesthetics
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Old 15th October 2002, 22:24   #30
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Re: Re: Re: Re: art?

Quote:
Originally posted by jonny raine
check out newer versions of all messed up soon to come. these ones might actually be useable and i will think more about aesthetics
If you're "thinking more about aesthetics" then you're selling out your artistic principles to be more appealing to the public. So you're really more Jack Vettriano than Marcel Duchamp, aren't you?

I actually think your skin was a piece of conceptual art but only worth interacting with for about the time it took you to make. What i like is the reaction which mirrors the "that shouldn't be like that" response to db's Windowlicker skin (3rd from right in his sig) which could be seen a piece of conceptual art in itself. Unfortunately you spoiled it all with the pretensious bullshit about being "radical" (I'm sure the girls who cut their own asymmetric fringes love that stuff but it's so old, man). Look at what Josh Davis is doing with Flash and James Tindall with Director and see their concepts of "chaos in a structured space". Neither calls themself an artist but they can walk the walk.

My main reason for posting is because I think this illustrates a point which skinme! and jellby touched on but which many skinners don't fully understand. Simply that skinning is interface design (albeit in a restricted form). 'Bathtub Bleu' or db's new one are not conceptual/arty skins they are skins which apply a design concept. This includes artistic content obviously but this is applied to an interface. The fact they address functionality means they are designs. Mr raine here never claimed his handiwork was a skin, he was just using winamp to make an artistic statement (more of a footnote really, but anyway). It's the same as skinner.exes using winamp as a canvas. Conceptual art has got so far up it's own arse that unusable skinner.exes (or failed customised skins) would actually count as conceptual art in the same way soiled beds or lights going on and off do. I would argue they also have exactly the same merit if not the same status.

One 'radical' concept which I think needs revived in fine art is the notion of craft. The whole 'being able to paint/sculpt/whatever' seems to be too much effort for most art school graduates. Basically if you want to make it as an artist in the current climate you only need to have flair for one thing - bullshitting. I look forward to following the long and distinguished career of jonny raine.

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Old 4th September 2003, 18:45   #31
Krynis
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im of the opinion that art in any form is what the veiwer makes of it, if you look at something and see art it is infact art, and if i look at the same object and think its crap(no relation to the skin i did not see it) then it is for me Crap, and art for you and and should be praised by others who see it as art, but you should be willing to accept the fact in return that not every one has the same taste or will see it the same way.
as for your "art" being removed there are already standards for skins here set, and if u do not fallow those standards you must accept that your skin may not remain.

but then im also of the opinion tat the human smile is one of the most amazing pieces of art ever conceaved

in short its not upto me or anyone else to decide if it is infact art even if to us it is not but the fact remains it does not fullfil the standards set for us in skinning this application
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Old 4th September 2003, 19:14   #32
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another old thread, eh?

...ah, I miss dekt. He made some quality posts.

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Old 4th September 2003, 19:57   #33
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very old, but I thought I'd posted in this one, weird...

To me, part of the challenge of skinning any function is keeping at least a good bit of the useable interface and working the art around it for a balance of both - of course, some will be higher on the useability scale, and some lean more towards the art side, but both should be there.

Say I make the most beautifullly sculpted coffee mug in the world, but it happens to have a hole in the bottom - because artistically I wanted it that way. I can't very well expect people to appreciate and use it as a coffee mug anymore, because I've sacrificed all the original intent and function in the name of being artistic. If that makes any sense...
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Old 4th September 2003, 20:32   #34
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Would anybody download a StyleXP 'conceptual art' skin for Windows XP. I think not. It would make their computer useless, a picture on the wall, especially if they had a plasma screen. Just because Winamp is programmed to be accessible through non-graphical means (i.e. keyboard shortcuts) does not mean it is any more a platform for conceptual but non-functioning skins than Windows XP.

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Old 4th September 2003, 20:44   #35
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Other than the coffee mug with a hole in the bottom a skin without visible buttons still has the functionality.
Although I think that the real art is to integrate the buttons, make the buttons visible without them being disturbing.
It should be possible even for new users to find out how to use winamp without switching to a different skin just to see where the hell the controls are. (I still have to do that once in a while, lol)

And hey, yeah it's an old thread, but I am new, so I just feel like answering here.
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Old 4th September 2003, 21:20   #36
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artistic skins are great as long as they are useable in some way......

like when i was thinking about ditching the eqbars in my skins for the sake of good looks, i decided not to cause it would defeat the whole point of making a skin....i might as well of made a wallpaper instead.
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Old 4th September 2003, 21:45   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by zwylle
Although I think that the real art is to integrate the buttons, make the buttons visible without them being disturbing.
Thats graphic design (viz is a form of art too).

As a Visual Communication student I have studied and personally feel that art is all about perception. Thus it becomes very difficult to define art perfectly. We all have our own perceptions of what art is and thats where problem lies.

I went on a college trip to an art gallery last year and this so called connesueir(sp?) kept trying to impress me with his hooh hahs about the focus of each painting and the sublime messages the artist was trying to convey. I met up with some of the artists later and found out that this so called expert was wrong about a lot of things. A similar thing happened to me where the professor saw more depth in my work than I did.

Back to the skin : Even if it comes under anyone's definition of art, the "artist" has obviously chosen the wrong medim. Isn't that a fundamental flaw?
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Old 4th September 2003, 22:06   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by skinme!
Would anybody download a StyleXP 'conceptual art' skin for Windows XP. I think not. It would make their computer useless, a picture on the wall, especially if they had a plasma screen. Just because Winamp is programmed to be accessible through non-graphical means (i.e. keyboard shortcuts) does not mean it is any more a platform for conceptual but non-functioning skins than Windows XP.
That reminds me of the time I went into the "appearance" section of the display options, and changed every color to black. BIIIIIIIIIG mistake. I was a stupid kid.
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Old 4th September 2003, 22:48   #39
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Hehe. How'd you get yourself out of that one? That is a good idea for a prank...

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Old 4th September 2003, 22:55   #40
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LOL!

i wouldnt know how to get outta that either....
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