ULTIMATUM ! 5.1 Speakers.

[Roob]

This is an ultimatum! I'm an winampuser since... ever. But im gonna change player if u will not make an stereo-to-quad-phonic(4.0)-built-in output !

Today lot of pepole has 5.1 speaker set and cant use all 4 speakers to listen music; and old plugins doesnt work anymore(win7-64bit)! but i think this basic feature should be native(and working).

[Aminifu]

Hi Roob,

I have found 2 ways to support my 5.1 speaker setup with Winamp. One way is to use the 'Maiko WASAPI' output plug-in instead of the Nullsoft DirectSound output plug-in. The other way is to use the 'Matrix Mixer' output plug-in along with the Nullsoft DirectSound output plug-in.

Both of these plug-ins not only remix stereo output to 5.1, but can also up-sample 16-bit tracks to 24-bit or higher. The Matrix Mixer plug-in has more user options that allow you automatic or manual control over the remix and the relative volume of each speaker. The Maiko plug-in is still being worked on and it's feature set is not as complete.

Links below. Post back if you want further info on how to use them.

http://maiko.elementfx.com/

http://sourceforge.net/projects/winampmatrixmix/

[SilverBird775]

Thats correct.

Maiko should do stereo to quad extension just fine. The math behind is quite simple, the front channels will be mirrored to rear.

[Roob]

Ok tnx, matrixmix work well, but...

Is it normal make a discution in a forum to obtain this ? such a basic feature...

And what will happend when win8 will be out, or the next winamp major release ? Will still everything works ?

-silverbird- easy right, thats why they should do it !

(aminifu, whats the point of resampling to 24bit if the source is 16bit ?)

[Aminifu]

Originally Posted by Roob

Ok tnx, matrixmix work well, but...

Is it normal make a discution in a forum to obtain this ? such a basic feature...

And what will happend when win8 will be out, or the next winamp major release ? Will still everything works ?

-silverbird- easy right, thats why they should do it !

(aminifu, whats the point of resampling to 24bit if the source is 16bit ?)

It may be a basic feature now, but it was not when Winamp was first developed. Most new Winamp features are added via plugins. It keeps the main app from getting bloated and allows users to just select the features that they want. Many people (most?) still use stereo speakers. In addition, most music (unless you pay extra) is mixed for stereo.

Win 8 should not break things that work in Win 7, not like what Vista and Win 7 did for Win XP. Anyway most active developers provide updates for their apps when necessary.

Up-sampling does no good if the technique used just adds zeroes to extend the data. These plugins seem to use a technique that actually adds useful data. Most of my MP3s sound better when I up-sample them during playback. Can't hurt to try it, unless you use a DSP plugin or a sound chip/card that only accepts 16 bit - 48KHz sampling.

[Aminifu]

Originally Posted by Aminifu

Up-sampling does no good if the technique used just adds zeroes to extend the data. These plugins seem to use a technique that actually adds useful data. Most of my MP3s sound better when I up-sample them during playback. Can't hurt to try it, unless you use a DSP plugin or a sound chip/card that only accepts 16 bit - 48KHz sampling.

I meant to write '16 bit - 44.1 KHz' in the last line above. Also the sound improvement is nothing major. The middle to high frequencies just seem a little clearer to me.

[Roob]

Aminifu, I disagree with almost everythin u sayd, but wahtever...

[DrO]

well as everyone seems to be in a disagreeing mood (*) ... i'm running a 5.1 setup with all speakers active and just using the Directsound plug-in and told Windows, my audio drivers that is what i have for playback. so i don't get what the whole point of the 'ultimatum' is when it clearly can and does work out of the box.

i'd more likely check your audio drivers don't already do it or that you've not set Windows to know there are multiple speakers (a common issue from what i remember of other people asking / complaining about such things over the years).

(*) as i'm also not sure about your signature link and initially thought your account has been compromised (still think that a bit especially as i'm in a disagreeable mood) - this has now been done as of 3rd September.

-daz

[Aminifu]

If your sound card/chip driver supports it, Windows Vista and 7 have an option called 'speaker fill' that that will expand stereo to all the speakers you have 'told' Windows you have. This basic copying of channels is sufficient for those people who just want to hear sound from all their speakers.

IMHO, the mirroring that the Maiko output plugin does is better than Windows' 'speaker fill' feature.

The "Matrix Mixer" output plug-in allows for more control over how the stereo is expanded. You can chose how much of the left and/or right channels get sent to the other channels and their individual base volume levels. It takes understanding how to remix and a little work to set up, but you can get close to true multichannel sound from a stereo source (expanded sound stage and accurate placement of instruments and vocals).

[Roob]

That doesnt work outofthebox for me, i dont see that option and my speaker are well configured. I have an audigy4.

But its so easy u just have to add an option to your directsound plugin !

(im now looking for another player)

[Roob]

I googled this "speaker fill" and I found that its only available for some card AND that its not so good...

Well, I really dont think that listen to music is something that should require partiqular hardware !!!

[DrO]

no one is forcing you to use Winamp. clearly you're not happy with it or anything related to it so why are you putting yourself through so much personal trauma over a media player if it doesn't fit your needs? if the suggestions don't help and you're hitting possible hardware restrictions (note: hardware has a massive effect when it comes to audio handling (as it's been at least since i've been using PCs) then rather than trying to make an ultimatum which isn't going to be noted, you need to find what best suits your needs (maybe you'd even be better off on a completely different OS).

-daz

[Roob]

cos im trying to help winamp too, not only me. im a geek i can fix that but how about the folks ? You really think that someone that can barley use a pc (and rather use a tablet with android) reach this site, find the forum, register and post a thread, check it every day, find the plugin, download, install, configure the plug in ? NO! probably cant even find this site.

Plus u have half of the work done: an directsound plugin ! u have just to duplicate a buffer and add an option !

[DrO]

you do not know how the plug-in is implemented - just saying "duplicate a buffer and add an option" is most likely not going to do it.

as Directsound is a second class citizen on modern versions of Windows, WASAPI is the primary audio system now (with all of the legacy audio apis built on top of that), so really you're more likely to get a better chance of getting what you want from the WASAPI plug-in that Aminifu referenced as that is effectively an actively developed plug-in.

and Winamp has never been aimed at the people you've mentioned (yes it may have tried to be made more friendly to some extent but it's never going to be noob friendly as things like WMP and iTunes seem to be more aimed at). it was more at people making things as they need it to achieve what they want and that is why you're best bet is to try to get the WASAPI plug-in dev to try to add / implement what you want (assuming they want to give up their free-time to do it).

i realise you're getting annoyed and frustrated at the lack of an official response to your ultimatum, but there is unlikely to be any updates on the Directsound plug-in now that it is a second class citizen on the audio stack.

-daz

[MrSinatra]

just out of curiosity, what are the pros/cons of wasapi/directsound, and why was wasapi chosen as the primary?

[Aminifu]

Originally Posted by MrSinatra

just out of curiosity, what are the pros/cons of wasapi/directsound, and why was wasapi chosen as the primary?

Microsoft made the decision to change (6 or 7 years ago) because their research showed that a great deal of kernel crashes and support calls were related to the audio stack in XP and earlier OSes. Now audio problems (due to bad drivers or whatever) will not bring down the entire OS.

Back when processors were single core and slower, it was an advantage to offload audio chores to a co-processor (soundcard or chip). The DirectSound API also allowed game developers to enhance positional audio and other special effects which greatly added to the enjoyment of gaming on a PC. The bad effects of poorly written DS drivers were blamed on Microsoft instead of on the vendors who wrote them.

Now faster and multi-core processors are able to handle audio chores like any other software task, so low level hardware control is no longer needed. Another API called OpenAL can be used to support the positional audio and special effects that DirectSound provided. So changing audio tasks back to high level software lets Microsoft prevent the related OS crashes and shift the blame for problems back to the audio product vendors.

For standard stereo and mono sound, it takes a trained ear to hear any significant difference between WASAPI, DirectSound, and ASIO on a modern, good to high quality, system.

What follows is an excerpt from the following Wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DirectS...ta.2FWindows_7

Windows Vista/Windows 7

Windows Vista features a completely re-written audio stack based on the Universal Audio Architecture. Because of the architectural changes in the redesigned audio stack, a direct path from DirectSound to the audio drivers does not exist. DirectSound, DirectMusic and other APIs such as MME are emulated as WASAPI Session instances. DirectSound runs in emulation mode on the Microsoft software mixer. The emulator does not have hardware abstraction, so there is no hardware DirectSound acceleration, meaning hardware and software relying on DirectSound acceleration may have degraded performance. It's likely a supposed performance hit might not be noticeable, depending on the application and actual system hardware. In the case of hardware 3D audio effects played using DirectSound3D, they will not be playable; this also breaks compatibility with EAX extensions.

Third-party APIs such as ASIO and OpenAL are not affected by these architectural changes in Windows Vista, as they use IOCtl to interface directly with the audio driver . A solution for applications that wish to take advantage of hardware accelerated high-quality 3D positional audio is to use OpenAL. However, this only works if the manufacturer provides an OpenAL driver for their hardware.

As of 2007, a solution to re-enable hardware acceleration of DirectSound3D and Audio Effects, such as EAX, called Creative ALchemy was launched. Creative ALchemy intercepts calls to DirectSound3D and translates them into OpenAL calls to be processed by supported hardware such as Sound Blaster X-Fi and Sound Blaster Audigy. For software-based Creative audio solutions, ALchemy utilizes its built-in 3D audio engine without using OpenAL at all.

Realtek, a manufacturer of integrated HD audio codecs, has a product similar to ALchemy called 3D SoundBack. C-Media, a manufacturer of PC sound card chipsets, also has a solution called Xear3D EX, although it works instead by intercepting DirectSound3D calls transparently in the background without any user intervention.

[Roob]

Interesting, whatever, i dont care how, just make 4.0 playback !

(between wasapi DS and openAL, ds is the only one compatible with xp ? i dont care anyway)

[Aminifu]

Roob, get real! The how, why, and cost of things are the reasons for doing anything.

If you are stuck with using XP, then the Matrix Mixer + DirectSound plug-ins combo is the best, beyond basic, option you're gonna get for free.

In addition, as a geek, you already know that all multichannel sound cards, multichannel sound chips, and multichannel speaker systems (developed in the last 10 years or more and worth the money) provide basic software and/or hardware ways to up-mix stereo on their own.

Both my old Creative Audigy Platinum soundcard (software utility app) and my old Logitech 5.1 speaker system (hardware matrix switch) provide basic up-mix features. I know how to get better results, so I chose not to use these basic features. I suggest that those who just want sound from all their speakers do not have a problem achieving this without any help from a media player app for any Microsoft OS from 98SE forward.

[daf-t-duck]

Hey. Not usually one to post on these forums, despite having used WinAmp since about version 2.xx. However, I have been searching for what seems like Ages for some way to get WinAmp to work with my 5.1 Surround Sound system on my 64-Bit Windows 7.

Then a Google search directed me here... Where my search has Finally ended & all thanks to you Aminifu. Maiko is something I'd never heard about before. But after downloading the .dll from the site & installing it into my WinAmp plugins folder I ran it. With a little tweaking of things, (switching Mixer automation off & adjusting speaker channel outputs,) I Finally have all speakers pushing out sound with WinAmp. Even my Bass Cannon.

So I felt I HAD to say Thank You for your really helpful post. Thanks again.

[Aminifu]

Hi daf-t-duck,

You're welcome and thank you. It feels good to know I was of some help to you.

Maiko is pretty far along, but it is still in development and being improved. Link below to it's discussion thread. There is no instruction manual yet, so feel free to post any questions. Also any additional feature suggestions.

http://forums.winamp.com/showthread.php?t=302485

[Aminifu]

There is a Maiko user manual in development. Link below.

http://maiko.elementfx.com/forum/index.php?topic=7.0

[jp_math]

Aminifu, thanks for your contribution.
I was exactly looking for that!

[siavash119]

I don't know how the thread has gone, but I went to configure nullsoft direct sound plug-in and clicked allow hardware acceleration. It simple upmixes to all my speakers nicely, but always goes back to 100% winamp volume. I made a hotkeyed shortcut to change the windows winamp volume, though, so everything works fine for me. When I listen to actual 6 channel audio, I just disable allow hardware acceleration.

EDIT: i have a realtek sound card stock to the asus motherboard

[Aminifu]

Hi siavash119,

What Windows version are you using? Audio hardware acceleration has been disabled since Vista.