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View Poll Results: Which one is your favorite?
Obama 36 59.02%
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Voters: 61. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 24th October 2008, 23:15   #201
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I guess you have to wait to have a lil swing. I hope that wasn't too personal!
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Old 24th October 2008, 23:57   #202
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I'd also suggest starting your own firm for example or getting a post in industry. I guarantee you will cross it by the time you hit retirement AND the medical won't be too bad as well.

So again, why is it we need to give more money to the people that put us on the path we are on now? Why do we need to have inequality in taxes?

Maybe we should extend this to law enforcement and education - you know, selectively respond to emergencies of people making over I dunno 30k a year as they will feel less pain, and educate their children less as they clearly proved they have more acumen than the ones making <10k?

I am so important I feel the need to let it be known like a liberal discovering the internets for the first time. Uh hur hur hur. I also wash myself with a rag on a stick.
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Old 24th October 2008, 23:59   #203
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Quote:
Originally posted by hgnis
I'd also suggest starting your own firm for example or getting a post in industry. I guarantee you will cross it by the time you hit retirement AND the medical won't be too bad as well.

So again, why is it we need to give more money to the people that put us on the path we are on now? Why do we need to have inequality in taxes?

Maybe we should extend this to law enforcement and education - you know, selectively respond to emergencies of people making over I dunno 30k a year as they will feel less pain, and educate their children less as they clearly proved they have more acumen than the ones making <10k?
Quote:
Originally posted by Widdykats
I guess you have to wait to have a lil swing. I hope that wasn't too personal!
Which reminds me - maybe we should tax people with less than 3 kids more as you know, they will feel less pain than the ones spitting out 7 kids.

I am so important I feel the need to let it be known like a liberal discovering the internets for the first time. Uh hur hur hur. I also wash myself with a rag on a stick.
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Old 25th October 2008, 00:31   #204
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Oh wow, you must be really suffering!

Quote:
Originally posted by hgnis
Maybe we should extend this to law enforcement and education - you know, selectively respond to emergencies of people making over I dunno 30k a year as they will feel less pain, and educate their children less as they clearly proved they have more acumen than the ones making <10k?
Or, perhaps by having schools and police (and hospitals, and... oh, voting offices) be better funded and staffed in more affluent areas?
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Old 25th October 2008, 02:10   #205
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Huge amounts of money isn't what I want. Being proud of what I do and having a decent living doing it is. Starting my own firm for high profit is against the purpose of what I do, which is providing a good, free education.

Right now, if I were in a single income household, as most of my fellow teachers are, my ability to have a decent, healthy living while doing this would be in danger. When looking for a job (in all three school districts I have taught in), I chose places that were officially categorized as economically disadvantaged.

Putting more money into the pockets of the people that have brought us where we are can be done by voting for McCain. He represents a party that has led us here. Putting more money into someone that will change things can be done for Obama.

We had a guy that wanted "fair and equal" taxes running for president a few years ago with a "flat tax" plan. It was an insanely stupid idea, and he lost miserably because of it.

All this probably doesn't reach people that can't seem to understand complex society needs, so being a teacher, I'll break it down into simple and easy to understand words:

Fair isn't always equal, and equal isn't always fair.

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Old 25th October 2008, 02:57   #206
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Amusing. You made your choice, you are happy with it, it is unsustainable in the event of an unplanned event later on in life and yet you expect to make a decent living or have someone else foot the bill for your choices. I do not expect you to pick up my slack if I am delinquent or unable to meet my life obligations and should I have to do the same for anyone else unless I choose to do so. One thing that deeply bothers me is how a large number of this generation like to find scapegoats to place the blame on instead of reflecting within when personal issues arise.

More of the blame game will not solve anything either - both parties propagated the current situation and it will continue no matter who is in power. (Though, if one were to trace back the timeline one would find that it was Barney Franks of the world that forced the legislation leading to the current imbroglio AND the democratic party controlled the legislature from the start of this current crisis - 2006.)

The root cause of the financial issues facing the US today is simple: on a macroeconomic level the nation has been consuming more than what it is able to work and pay for. No amount of tax or capital will fix this psyche since what underwear Britney is wearing and how much you can buy it for is more important.

Funny you should mention fair and equal. I am sure some of the people used it when they were trying to justify slavery, and segregation not TOO long ago. Things will never be right in this world. When we ourselves add to the injustices, it makes us no better than the propogators themselves.

The good news here is that it only takes one Jimmy Carter to make people wake up the next time around. Till then, the flight of capital from this country will make for an interesting case study in b-school in 4 years. I hear the violins playing now....YAY!

Quote:
Originally posted by gaekwad2
Or, perhaps by having schools and police (and hospitals, and... oh, voting offices) be better funded and staffed in more affluent areas?
Now, now, if we did that these people wouldn't feel the pain we want them to feel would we? Seeing that we want to make it so no one EVER wants to have more money.

I am so important I feel the need to let it be known like a liberal discovering the internets for the first time. Uh hur hur hur. I also wash myself with a rag on a stick.
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Old 25th October 2008, 04:52   #207
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Are you saying teachers should quit their professions because of what I mentioned? Well I guess you're right in a sense, half of all first year teachers do quit when they find out what it means. If all of us quit because of what we've been discussing, there would be no education. Your line of reasoning fails.

You have been pushing the idea that the quality or importance of a job is based on the money it gives you. That's just greed. You seem to think that people that aren't happy with their income should just scrap their job and do something different, which leaves many others to follow in the same footsteps. This keeps rookies in those positions, which makes the profession suffer in a terrible way. Perhaps that doesn't mean much in some fields, but it means a lot in my field. Every important issue facing our nation depends on my profession, and those dedicated to it don't just toss it out the window, selfishly looking for something more profitable.

If you ever become unemployed and can't find a better-than-minimum wage job to sustain yourself, you'll be relying on others to help you through until you can find something better. If someone didn't help you through, you would rot and die, with your ability to be a decent available worker and taxpayer dying with you. It doesn't help the economy to say fuck you to the people that are temporarily out of work, it helps to keep them healthy and help put them back to work. It doesn't help to tell educators to leave their profession because it's not sustaining enough, it helps to make sure educators are secure in their jobs so that our nation has a secure educational system that is good enough to look good to future educators.

Your post, again, has so many holes in it that I have no choice but to realize that I'm communicating to someone that has serious flaws in reasoning, and it might be better to just start ignoring future posts here.

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Old 25th October 2008, 05:06   #208
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[QUIt doesn't help to tell educators to leave their profession because it's not sustaining enough, it helps to make sure educators are secure in their jobs so that our nation has a secure educational system that is good enough to look good to future educators.[/B][/QUOTE]

I think this might be the crux of the argument. Clearly if teachers are being asked to perform high level work at low level pay, something is wrong with the marketplace. I'm not sure I would agree that the resolution should be artificially inflating teacher pay, however.
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Old 25th October 2008, 05:53   #209
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Quote:
Originally posted by swingdjted
Are you saying teachers should quit their professions because of what I mentioned?
Yawn. No one ever said anything about the importance of any job - your's or anyone else's.

Quote:
Originally posted by swingdjted
You have been pushing the idea that the quality or importance of a job is based on the money it gives you.
Nope, you have made the assumption that quality or importance is proportional to money. I on the other hand have indicated that the lifestyle one desires to live should be commensurate to their ability to EARN and sustain that lifestyle.

Quote:
Originally posted by swingdjted
If you ever become unemployed and can't find a better-than-minimum wage job to sustain yourself, you'll be relying on others to help you through until you can find something better. If someone didn't help you through, you would rot and die, with your ability to be a decent available worker and taxpayer dying with you.
Been there, done that, did not need handouts or ANYONE else to subsidize me. Last time I checked the only thing rotting was the flatulence - and I AM trying to cut down on the cheese, believe me....Man up and move on.

Quote:
Originally posted by swingdjted
Your post, again, has so many holes in it that I have no choice but to realize that I'm communicating to someone that has serious flaws in reasoning, and it might be better to just start ignoring future posts here.
I can see how it is easy if you are accustomed to conversing with youth to be unable to process alternatives. I suggest you get the union to send you on one of those communication courses. You never know, they might become useful the next time you have to explain your ideas to an adult.

Till then, stay safe for the next 4 years. Don't get shot or shoot the kids. In the meantime, I will be working to make sure the flight of capital out of here and subsequent job losses / escalation in crime / poverty that is coming is minimal with no union support, inflated medical bills, and a hefty mortgage.

Quote:
Originally posted by Phyltre
Clearly if teachers are being asked to perform high level work at low level pay, something is wrong with the marketplace. I'm not sure I would agree that the resolution should be artificially inflating teacher pay, however. [/B]
I don't think teacher's pay is "low", but I do think they are not being paid enough for what they have to do. A number of family members are teachers and man I wish the powers that be did a better job at rewarding them.
Teachers are not the only ones in that boat however and something is fundamentally wrong with the system, our quest for material wealth, and the way people seem to think everyone else who appears to be better off relatively speaking is to blame for their life's problems.

I am so important I feel the need to let it be known like a liberal discovering the internets for the first time. Uh hur hur hur. I also wash myself with a rag on a stick.
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Last edited by hgnis; 25th October 2008 at 06:20.
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Old 25th October 2008, 11:36   #210
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Quote:
Originally posted by Phyltre
Quote:
It doesn't help to tell educators to leave their profession because it's not sustaining enough, it helps to make sure educators are secure in their jobs so that our nation has a secure educational system that is good enough to look good to future educators.
I think this might be the crux of the argument. Clearly if teachers are being asked to perform high level work at low level pay, something is wrong with the marketplace. I'm not sure I would agree that the resolution should be artificially inflating teacher pay, however.
What would be the alternative? Hiring Mexicans? Outsourcing schools to India?

Or, wait, we'll simply make people pay for primary education, those who are unhappy with their children remaining illiterate, well they'll just have to work more. I'm sure hgnis will provide the necessary well paying jobs.

In fact a rise of teacher pay would be nothing artificial. Since demand is essentially fixed (enough to educate all children (leaving aside the question how much is enough)) you have to pay enough to ensure a steady supply. The problem is just that an overly lean state may lack the funds to do so (without raising taxes and making hgnis BAWWWWWW).

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Old 25th October 2008, 13:31   #211
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For a minute, I wanted to throw in some only slightly relevant Ayn Rand stuff, but gaekwad is under enough stress already - he might actually explode if I did that

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Old 25th October 2008, 13:36   #212
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If you mean explode into laughter you may be right.

btw, did Palin just lose the hockey mom vote?
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Old 25th October 2008, 13:49   #213
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Quote:
Originally posted by gaekwad2
If you mean explode into laughter you may be right.
Something like that, yes

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Old 25th October 2008, 17:43   #214
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Quote:
Originally posted by gaekwad2

What would be the alternative? Hiring Mexicans?
I don't care for that phrase much. I understand how people feel about the hiring and Illegal Immigrants (who are exploited) in general, whomever they may be. But, I believe you have the right to say whatever you want. I have the right to take issue.
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Old 25th October 2008, 19:52   #215
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Er, that wasn't what I had in mind. If anything it was more of an attempt to bait the usual xenophobic response but mainly I was trying to show that the usual cost cutting measures don't apply here.
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Old 26th October 2008, 01:32   #216
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Bilingual (naturalized citizen) Mexican-American Spanish teachers are quite common.

I did get a good laugh from the joke though.

Good cost cutting:

Get rid of the insanely expensive required NCLB-compliant state testing - they change requirements every fucking year requiring us to buy new/revised textbooks all the time that have prices people have a lot of trouble believing. Textbooks are in huge demand because of this, creating wildly high prices. The money spent on recording and analyzing test scores by non-school officials is very high, even though it could be done for a lot less by teachers and administrators.

Re-allow parent volunteers to help in the classroom instead of paying equally-unqualified aides. Volunteers are not allowed any more in a lot of schools because of administrators' misinterpretation of FERPA.

Stop giving school districts' money to charter schools, who get far more per student than the nearby local public school.

Stop the levy system in states that have it - school officials spend far too much time and money on public-relations when they can do better being educators.

Get rid of or lower the overpayment of the "double dippers" - people who get a full retirement while also getting a full time paycheck from the school. These people also rob jobs from recent college graduates. If someone does want to come out of retirement and start working again, they should have to choose between retirement pay or school district pay, not both.

There are a few others, but these alone would help a lot.

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Old 26th October 2008, 03:11   #217
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Quote:
Originally posted by swingdjted
Get rid of the insanely expensive required NCLB-compliant state testing
That came about because the taxpayers weren't happy about the quality of education that their children are getting. If you don't like being inspected, then educate kids like taxpayers expected. Educators and schools have brought scrutiny on themselves.

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they change requirements every fucking year requiring us to buy new/revised textbooks all the time that have prices people have a lot of trouble believing.
Agreed.


Quote:
The money spent on recording and analyzing test scores by non-school officials is very high, even though it could be done for a lot less by teachers and administrators.
Again, because we didn't like the results when we let schools and educators police themselves.

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Stop giving school districts' money to charter schools, who get far more per student than the nearby local public school.
Charter schools have a better track record of turning out educated students than public schools do. They feature lower teacher to student ratios, so that isn't surprising. Parents opt for this because of an improvement in the behavior and security of their children. If you don't like this, get public schools to do a better job. My best information is that charter schools get 13-22% less public funding per student than public schools.

Quote:
Get rid of or lower the overpayment of the "double dippers" - people who get a full retirement while also getting a full time paycheck from the school.
These people got what they contracted for. Public service at a lower pay than would be available in the private sector often includes good retirement pay packages as incentive to work for lower wages. These benefits are earned just like any other pay.

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Old 26th October 2008, 04:57   #218
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I don't mind so much having the public "inspect" us. I keep an open door to any taxpayer that wants to walk in and witness exactly what their taxdollars are paying for. It's common for people (parents at least) to do this.

If the testing weren't at the expense of the school's budget, or at the expense of reducing the time spent teaching subjects not covered by the test, I'd be fine with it, but the fact is, it severely destroys many things we used to be able to teach the kids (areas not covered on the test), and it destroys our budgets. Our district no longer has an elementary or middle school art teacher because of it. Our district doesn't do field trips any more because of it. There are several other problems too, but I'm getting tired and I'd rather wait until tomorrow to type them out.

I'm glad you at least agree with the textbook issue, because in addition to just having to drop the money for them, teachers have to start each year with a book they're not as much familiar with. I'd rather replace books every 5-8 years, or longer if they're exceptional in terms of quality material - and that bugs me when we have to toss out a curriculum that (finally) is found to be effective, since so much of the shit we're given to use turns out to be a waste.

As far as charter schools - they get to pick and choose their students, tossing out the ones that won't make them look good, hence the better outcome. It's something we see all the time - a mad (and incompetent) parent tries to piss us off by taking an underachieving kid out of our school to send said kid to a charter school. The charter school then realizes that they got one they didn't want and they send the kid right back to us. Then we have to get the kid back on track. I don't mind teaching that kind of kid, in fact I get some odd thrill out of the challenge, but it irks me that they record results with their chosen few and we don't. After some research, I have found a few charters that do get less money per student, but upon further research, it's a bad comparison, because their figures don't include breakfasts/lunches, building/utility costs or transportation, all of which are measured separately for charter schools, whereas in public schools, costs per student include all of that. This is a big difference between my views and those of Barak Obama. He supports charter schools, while I only would if they didn't hurt public schools so much. As far as student to teacher ratio, that's nothing more than a problem with the amount of money people are willing to pay public schools to keep the ratios favorable. Luckily, in my tiny town, my biggest class is 25, but in Akron, OH (before I moved) it was common to have 35+ per class, although as a band director I had 162 (but that doesn't quite count since I had two assistants, and the kids were there by choice). If it were a perfect world I feel around 15-20 would be great - not so little that I was being wasted, not too many where I couldn't meet their needs.

As far as our 'public service' retirements are concerned... I probably shouldn't have complained about people being paid too much as the retirement investors have taken a giant asset attack with the bad economy. Luckily it hasn't led to a change in benefits yet, but it probably will soon. Contribution to future payout ratio will greatly suffer.

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Old 26th October 2008, 15:37   #219
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Quote:
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Er, that wasn't what I had in mind. If anything it was more of an attempt to bait the usual xenophobic response but mainly I was trying to show that the usual cost cutting measures don't apply here.
Good God! I'm getting slower and slower! But, glad ya' explained that.
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Old 27th October 2008, 08:35   #220
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If the testing weren't at the expense of the school's budget, or at the expense of reducing the time spent teaching subjects not covered by the test, I'd be fine with it, but the fact is, it severely destroys many things we used to be able to teach the kids
The NCLB examinations test reading comprehension, math skills, writing skills.... basically they test kids on what they should know for their grade level.

I don't know what you wanted to teach them that wasn't on the test, but they did need to know what was on the test.... first....

That's reading, writing and arithmetic. If you didn't get that drilled into their pointy little heads, you failed.

I don't think the idea that every high school graduate should be able to read, do a little math, and string a cogent sentence together on a piece of paper is an unrealistic goal.

Maybe the NCLB isn't the way to do it, but it was a reaction to pitiful failure of many of our schools.

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Old 27th October 2008, 17:20   #221
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I still don't understand why I was required to learn so much math in school. I have completely forgotten everything past simple arithmetic, and have yet to encounter any situation (fabricated or otherwise) in which I would need any of it. So basically all that hard work and hours and hours of homework were without merit. And even being an english major, I never needed to know how to graph sentences or know much beyond the basics of grammar--that's the kind of thing you have to know naturally. Learning an artificial word classification system won't help you be a better writer. And you won't remember it!

Then of course there are the many hours wasted on feel-good classes like state history, which is so specific as to be applicable information in only an academic setting...totally without sense of scale. Don't remember any of that, either. It's not as though I wasn't paying attention in class. I was the perfect student back then. Fantastic grades, great AP course performance. I just don't think that information we will lose in a few semesters should be taken so seriously.
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Old 27th October 2008, 17:55   #222
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You don't need to learn much math or anything. Good old ObAAAAAAAAmaAAAAAAAA will take care of it all for you.

I am so important I feel the need to let it be known like a liberal discovering the internets for the first time. Uh hur hur hur. I also wash myself with a rag on a stick.
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Old 27th October 2008, 18:39   #223
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you learned math to interpret any statistics given to you, or to derail them when they are wrong. math skills pay out if you want to risk a glance at your future. You can easily live without math if you don't care about tomorrow. Otherwise you can sell more shit to uneducated people so it's a swinging balance but the trend is going to better education for the rich and vice versa for the poor.
www.gapminder.org - nice and colorful graphs for all those who hate math.
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Old 27th October 2008, 22:17   #224
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Luckily diagramming sentences is starting to be a thing of the past - none of the teachers I have worked with teach it anymore. I guess they came to the conclusion that teaching sentence structure can be done just as effectively in other ways. Strangely enough I enjoyed learning it when I did, but I could understand people's view if someone didn't see much benefit in it.

I think the general view of a lot of people is that we teach enough theory but not enough practice/application. A lot of graduates have good information in their heads, but they don't seem to know how or where to use it to benefit them.

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Old 27th October 2008, 23:56   #225
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I still don't understand why I was required to learn so much math in school. I have completely forgotten everything past simple arithmetic, and have yet to encounter any situation (fabricated or otherwise) in which I would need any of it.
You probably got geometry and some algebra. You forgot those mostly, but if you hadn't taken them, you probably would have forgotten simple math.

It's come up a couple times that I needed some algebra and geometry. A couple hours with a book reminds me enough to get what I needed to do done. That's mostly just been in construction work and carpentry.

Quote:
Originally posted by swingdjted
A lot of graduates have good information in their heads, but they don't seem to know how or where to use it to benefit them.
My brother in law is the victim of a poor education. It's not impossible for him to succeed, but he found himself at 30, trying to learn things he should have learned at 15.
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Old 28th October 2008, 03:31   #226
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Quote:
Originally posted by Flexi

you learned math to interpret any statistics given to you, or to derail them when they are wrong.
I took a few statistics courses in college and enjoyed them heavily. Why? Because it's stuff I can use, at any time, to learn useful information about my environment and my culture. I don't remember ALL the specifics, obviously, but I can assess statistical statements and understand enough about basic sampling and mass number-crunching/conclusions to have a meaningful dialogue about, say, survey results or recent studies.

...But don't take that to mean that I found college to be much better a use of my time than high school. Certainly not the case, for most courses.
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Old 5th November 2008, 02:50   #227
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Quote:
Originally posted by General Geoff
Hmmm... socialism or.. slightly less socialism.


I think I'll go cry in a corner.
wait wat?
I'll believe there's socialist politics at work over there when I see it.. barely.

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Old 5th November 2008, 03:28   #228
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Obama 207
McCain 135
so far...

And, Ohio went blue. That's great news. Republicans can't win with a blue Ohio.

Don't forget to live before you die.
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Old 5th November 2008, 03:28   #229
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Not looking too good for McCain.

Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway.
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Old 5th November 2008, 03:35   #230
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Not too good is quite an understatement.
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Old 5th November 2008, 03:43   #231
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You said it, gaekwad.

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Old 5th November 2008, 03:58   #232
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CNN has projected Obama to take Virginia. Game Over.

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Old 5th November 2008, 04:01   #233
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California! Washington! Oregon! Hawaii!

We have a winner!

Spiral out, my friend. You will find your way back to yourself, we all will.
I'll be waiting, and shall see you on the other side...
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Old 5th November 2008, 04:15   #234
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Obama FTW!!!!

Don't forget to live before you die.
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Old 5th November 2008, 04:17   #235
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Congratulations, Obama.

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Old 5th November 2008, 04:34   #236
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Congratulations, coal industry.

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Old 5th November 2008, 04:45   #237
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lol poloticz

now get the fuck off my television approving shit every 10 fucking seconds
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Old 5th November 2008, 04:53   #238
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In other election news: Thank you, any other Michiganders out there, for voting for Proposition 1, making Michigan the first state in the Midwest to allow medical marijuana!

Spiral out, my friend. You will find your way back to yourself, we all will.
I'll be waiting, and shall see you on the other side...
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Old 5th November 2008, 05:22   #239
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^holy shit I didn't know that was up for vote.

My state sadly didn't go my way for the presidential election, but the country did, so I love the outcome.

We elected a democrat for house and senate, so that's a plus too.

Don't forget to live before you die.
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Old 5th November 2008, 10:35   #240
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GO Go Go GOBAMA!!!
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