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View Poll Results: If you were to build a new computer right now, what would you pick?
XP 31 65.96%
Vista 16 34.04%
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Old 27th May 2008, 21:45   #81
gaekwad2
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Quote:
Originally posted by zootm
Microsoft offers tonnes of help to people who are developing drivers. There's no responsibility shift here; it's just the way that Windows drivers have always been done. The fact that hardware companies seem incapable of making compatible drivers for their own hardware given this help can't really be blamed on Microsoft.
Yes, but a blame game simply is no solution for someone who can't use his old hardware.

It's just childish behaviour (but then, it fits in rather well with the rest of ScorLibran's post).
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Old 27th May 2008, 22:08   #82
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Quote:
Originally posted by zootm


hardware companies seem incapable of making compatible drivers for their own hardware...


*CoughCreative LabsCough*
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Old 27th May 2008, 22:15   #83
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Quote:
Originally posted by gaekwad2
It's just childish behaviour
Try to control your anger. Be happy, like me. The more giddy I am on any given day, the longer my posts tend to be. (And this has been a great month so far!)

No written opinion or description of experience will ever satisfy everyone, but most folks in those cases either pass on by or provide an alternative solution. Being constructive - with a little humor woven in - is a good thing. Being hateful is not.

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Old 27th May 2008, 23:33   #84
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Quote:
Originally posted by ScorLibran
The more high I am on any given day, the longer my posts tend to be.
amirite?

Quote:
Originally posted by Omega X
*Coughany soundcard manufacturerCough*
This time Creative aren't even particularly bad, see post a while back about M-Audio. (Which makes me think there might be something to developers' complaints about MS's documentation.)

But again, arguing whose fault it is really doesn't help somebody whose hardware won't run (at all/correctly/as well as in XP/Win95/AmigaOS).
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Old 27th May 2008, 23:48   #85
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That's a little better. But the only person arguing that matter here is you - everyone else seems to agree that driver compatibility is the primary responsibility of the component manufacturer. Even the component manufacturers acknowledge that.

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Old 27th May 2008, 23:50   #86
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And that solves people's problems how?
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Old 27th May 2008, 23:58   #87
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Driver compatibility problems usually arise with older or discontinued components(sound cards, modems, tuner cards). If that's the case, then the problem is not the manufacturer. I don't expect Creative to still write drivers for something that's 10+ years old(for example).

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Old 28th May 2008, 00:06   #88
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Quote:
Originally posted by gaekwad2
And that solves people's problems how?
Now they would know to contact the component manufacturer for a driver upgrade rather than calling Microsoft for $35, blindly throwing parts at the problem, or simply running away from the matter saying "Vista is a piece of shit!" Many times I've gotten beta drivers that solved the problem from companies on request, when I would have otherwise had to wait for several weeks longer. For example, Creative sent me a copy of Audigy HD drivers on which they were still doing internal user testing, which indeed fixed most of the issues I was having with my Audigy card in a Vista 32-bit platform. If I didn't know to contact them, then I wouldn't have gotten so lucky, and instead would have been left guessing.

And even if you can't get anything like that, you can often get an update on the status of a new driver. That way you can plan things accordingly - perhaps use a different component for a while, knowing that the other will likely be working soon. Or if it's a non-critical part, just leave it uninstalled for a while, having a good idea of when you'll be able to install it again.

If you have no indication of a pending update, then you'd know that changing out the component to a different brand/model would be the most viable solution for you. You see, you'll have done the research in all the right places, and in turn will have the knowledge to implement the most cost-effective fix without simply "guessing" whether and when certain drivers may be updated.

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Old 28th May 2008, 05:42   #89
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I've found that the best software/hardware companies are the first to update. I've learned over the last few OS switches to immediately dump and boycott companies that can't support their own products, it leads to a much cleaner computing experience.
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Old 28th May 2008, 05:47   #90
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I still don't understand the flaming against people that have no real need to upgrade to something they don't need. I do not find it to be a "stu-stu-stupid" thing to stick with what is already there if it works without trouble.

I have woodworking gear that is mostly older than I am (30 years). There aren't any laser lines that show where the cut will be, nor are there any manufacture-installed snake-lights to aim on the work area on any of the tools either. They are old, dirty, loud, and leak saw dust more than newer models. Despite this, the end product (furniture, built-ins, framing, etc.) is of no lower quality than if I were to use brand new equipment.

The same goes with operating systems for me. I don't feel I need to stick with DOS or windows 95 or whatever in the same way I don't stick with a hand saw over a power saw. Those older versions do indeed lack features that I find necessary for my work. However XP has all I need and it's here. I have worked with Vista and although I have no complaints, I haven't found anything yet about it that would make me any more productive than I am with XP. If someone gave me a new machine with Vista, I would indeed use it with likely no complaints, but since I can't find any need for it, I'm not going to put any effort into getting it.

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Old 28th May 2008, 05:57   #91
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Quote:
Originally posted by swingdjted
I still don't understand the flaming against people that have no real need to upgrade to something they don't need.
What you are seeing is feedback from an old phenomenon--new OSes (especially from Microsoft) are often decried as useless and without merit, until they are adopted into the mainstream and the cycle repeats itself with the next update years down the road. People have poor memories.

This time around, the internet was prevalent enough with a broad enough swath of the computer-using public to spur larger-scale discussions about Vista than have occurred previously. That's basically the only difference, but it's led to a different phenomenon; the people screaming about how crap Vista is (if you don't believe me, check Digg comments from ~1.5 years ago up to a few months ago) are backing off, just as the people comfortable with Vista are becoming more vocal. So you have this overly defensive group who "don't not like" Vista disagreeing with a shrinking population of people screaming/nagging/muttering about how bad Vista is. Their behavior is reinforced by all the old postings around that make Vista sound like crapware, even though these sentiments are once again becoming less prevalent (as they inevitably do.)

Hope that explains things.
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Old 28th May 2008, 06:04   #92
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It doesn't apply to you if you simply DON'T WANT to upgrade. Read it again...
Quote:
Originally posted by ScorLibran
If it's a matter of personal preference, comfort, familiarity, or the increasingly rare issue of critical application compatibility, then it's an understandable reason to hold off. (And, of course, the matter of hardware.)
It's a "user training issue" only if you WANT to migrate and TRY to migrate anytime after SP1 became generally available, and then try sticking blame on Vista for not being able to (barring the afforementioned issues of critical component incompatibility, hardware limitations, etc.) Also the case for folks who just repeat the same old song after the issues have largely been resolved.

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Old 28th May 2008, 07:10   #93
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If it takes several hours to install Vista, is that a sign that something is wrong with my computer?

I have run Vista on the computer before but it didn't take this long to install.

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Old 28th May 2008, 07:22   #94
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How many hours? It usually installs for me in about 1 to 1.5 hours overall, but that's on fairly high-end hardware. I'd say it should install on any system within three hours between booting the DVD and having a desktop under your control. Level of hardware will certainly affect the install time, though.

As long as it keeps going (and as long as "several hours" doesn't mean 8-10) then I think you're OK. Are you installing the same version, and does the installation package include SP1?

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Old 28th May 2008, 07:31   #95
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This is the one I've had for a while and installed before. I've had it for several months so it doesn't have SP1.

So far it's been about 2.5 hours since I started the install process. I used to be able to get it installed in less than an hour. It's at the "Expanding files" part.

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Old 28th May 2008, 07:36   #96
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Ah, it sits at "Expanding Files" for a while generally, so just let it run.

If you're installing the same instance on the same machine with all the same hardware, then I wouldn't know what's causing the time discrepancy without getting my hands on it and poking around for the answer.

Could the DVD have become scratched? My copy of Crysis came with a big, fat scratch on it (grrr, bought it "Like New" from an Amazon merchant). It works, but it's very slow to load.

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Old 28th May 2008, 07:42   #97
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There are a couple of very light scratches but nothing major. The only thing I can think of is that the hard drive is different than last time. Last time was an 80GB and now it's a 250GB.

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Old 28th May 2008, 07:57   #98
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Ah, that could have a major impact on install performance if the specs of the two drives are different. Fortunately, the worst of the performance hit would likely just be during the OS install, being one of the most HD-intensive operations you'd normally do on the computer.

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Old 28th May 2008, 08:02   #99
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Took well over an hour(close to 2 hours) just to format it with the XP CD. I think the only difference between the drives is the size. WD800JB 80GB WD2500JB 250GB.

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Old 28th May 2008, 08:08   #100
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The longer low-level format would be partly attributable to the larger capacity, but it's also likely that the new drive has somewhat slower performance specs than the old one. That (as odd as it sounds) is good news, as it means that there's probably nothing wrong with the installation process or the DVD.


edit: Just saw your edit after I posted, so I seem to be wrong about the different specs. I'll check if I can...

edit: OK, the 250GB drive has the faster buffer-to-disk maximum transfer rate of 748Mb/s, while the same rate of the 80GB is 602Mb/s. The 80GB drive has an average seek time of 8.9ms, an average write time of 10.9ms, and an average latency of 4.2ms. ....And nobody on Earth seems to know the seek/write/latency specs of the 250GB drive, not even WD. Judging from the install duration so far, though, there seems to be a difference in performance that's enough to cause it.

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Old 28th May 2008, 08:21   #101
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Quote:
Originally posted by gaekwad2

This time Creative aren't even particularly bad, see post a while back about M-Audio. (Which makes me think there might be something to developers' complaints about MS's documentation.)
IMO, they are just as bad. Some Brazillian guy had to mod drivers to get Audigy cards working properly in Vista on his own time. (not to mention that Creative is selling these as Vista Compatible now and the official drivers are still bad.)
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Old 28th May 2008, 08:29   #102
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I've gotten Creative's Audigy drivers (unless he's using a different version than I am) to work perfectly in Vista since SP1 on 7 different machines so far. Although IIRC, they have different driver sets for different models of Audigy adapter, and I haven't used all of them. If that's the case then I wouldn't be surprised if there are some that aren't yet fixed. (And, of course, "they" would have to be qualified when saying of Creative's drivers "they don't work".)

edit: Yep, I recalled that correctly, so we're dealing with many different Creative driver instances, dependent on the model of adapter.

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Old 28th May 2008, 09:02   #103
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I aborted the install again. After being at 71% for over an hour I figured it wouldn't be moving any time soon. Time to "purchase" a new DVD I guess though I don't know why this one isn't working.

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Old 28th May 2008, 09:20   #104
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Damn, I'm sorry to hear that. Yeah, although the install can seem to stop dead for quite a while sometimes - more often than XP, anyway - taking over an hour in one spot's not good. Do you know anyone with a Vista (same version) DVD? It'd be nice to try a different one to confirm or eliminate the disc as the culprit before you go out and spend money on another.

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Old 28th May 2008, 09:37   #105
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Quote:
Originally posted by swingdjted
I still don't understand the flaming against people that have no real need to upgrade to something they don't need. I do not find it to be a "stu-stu-stupid" thing to stick with what is already there if it works without trouble.
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Old 28th May 2008, 09:39   #106
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I never spent money on the first. But still. No biggie really. I just put XP back on there. I really only like Vista for the eye candy.

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Old 28th May 2008, 10:16   #107
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Well that's good that you weren't left with no OS for that box.

On another note, I just sold one of my currently listed machines near the top of its price range, and a bit sooner than expected. Woot! The next build's on the way!

It actually feels a bit odd to be making money doing something that I enjoy so much - more so, in fact, than anything I've ever done. It seems the old adage is right; life DOES begin at 40.

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Old 28th May 2008, 16:58   #108
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Quote:
Originally posted by ScorLibran
Creative has fixed (at least the bulk of) their drivers, dude. (As of about a month ago, shortly after SP1 GA.) I've tested Audigy and X-Fi drivers on both Vista 32-bit and 64-bit platforms, and they all finally work flawlessly.
yes, i'm aware of that, what i meant was creative completely dropped the ball on drivers since it was at least a few months before they had non beta drivers for vista out after it's release, despite ample time to work on them and even a beta provided as well.

Quote:
Originally posted by deeder7001
If it takes several hours to install Vista, is that a sign that something is wrong with my computer?

I have run Vista on the computer before but it didn't take this long to install.
your computer could simply need cleaning, open your case and look inside, if there's much (or any) dust visible inside the case or on the components at all get a vacuum with the longest hose you can find and blow out the dust, you may need to nearly or even barely touch the hose to the the components and this is best done in static free environment (concrete flooring), however DO NOT LET THE MOTOR HOUSING OF THE VACUUM ANYWHERE NEAR THE CASE it most likely has very powerfull electromagnets in it that will scramble a hard drive faster than a floor standing speaker magnet.

[EDIT] i meant to mention somewhere in there on the cleaning bit, i did this about a month ago and my framerate in 3d games literally doubled at least [/EDIT]

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Old 28th May 2008, 17:21   #109
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Quote:
Originally posted by ScorLibran
Well that's good that you weren't left with no OS for that box.

On another note, I just sold one of my currently listed machines near the top of its price range, and a bit sooner than expected. Woot! The next build's on the way!

It actually feels a bit odd to be making money doing something that I enjoy so much - more so, in fact, than anything I've ever done. It seems the old adage is right; life DOES begin at 40.
How much did that one sell for?

I'd be building computers for people like my grandma. Only needs the basic stuff for internet surfing. Basically cheap basic computers. Probably could make a few bucks per computer too. I like putting computers together as well. I just hate the software part of it.

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Old 28th May 2008, 20:19   #110
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I sold it for $1650. The total parts investment was $1100, but only because I got the GeForce 8800 GTS 640 at a HUGE discount. The "normal" expenditure barring rare deals like that would have been about $1250. In that price range, $400 profit is about what I expected, and seems pretty easy to maintain across sales.

For a basic PC, though, you'll be able to buy much more inexpensive parts. And since you're not overclocking it'll take you less time to build and prepare. And you should definitely be able to pocket a reasonable profit with each one.

I used to dislike the system/application side of the setup process, too. But after the first several years of building these machines, configuration and troubleshooting started coming more easily, to the point now that I can't remember the last time anything really tripped me up for more than a few minutes. When you're installing and configuring the same two or three OS versions enough times in succession, you're able to run through it faster and with fewer obstacles along the way.

I hope with some time you'll come to be just as comfortable with the software setup as with the hardware. It's a lot easier (and more fun) when there's no particular part of the work that you dread.

I don't know about you, but my response to discomfort is procrastination - I'd let a system take twice as long to setup as it should, just 'cause I dreaded doing the OS and software installations so much. But now I don't slow down at all.

With Vista, for instance, a system normally takes me three days now to get from receiving the parts in the mail to being ready to post the advertisement. Day one is for hardware build, smoke testing and basic configuration. Day two is advanced configuration and software installs, and then after normal running for 36 hours, I overclock, stabilize and start benchmarking. Day three is completing benchmarks, finishing up any bit of remaining configuration and creating the ad. (While the ad's running, I'll write a "User Quick Start" for the system, describing specific aspects of it which the user may not discover from any of the other component-specific documentation.)

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Old 28th May 2008, 20:31   #111
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The only reason I don't like the OS install part is because my computer is unusable until it's completed. It's not as bad as it used to be as I have another computer(laptop) to use while it's going.

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Old 28th May 2008, 22:23   #112
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Old 30th May 2008, 23:37   #113
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For me neither, try alternatives


* PC: Intel Core 2 DUO E6550 @ 2.33 GHz with 2 GB RAM: Archlinux-i686 with MATE.
* Laptop: Intel Core 2 DUO T6600 @ 2.20 GHz with 4 GB RAM: Archlinux-x86-64 with MATE.
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Old 1st June 2008, 21:56   #114
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Vista is bloomin' horrible. XP anyday, at least until I find out how much a waste of space Win7 is going to be.

My XP machine... absolutely no problems, and I have had it years. I get two machines with Vista, and there is non-stop whinging and whining in some form or another!!

First I get that daft TCP/IP Bluescreen error ON BOTH MACHINES!!!! (Anyone know the solution to this as the "hotfix" doesn't work!). So both machines just randomly turn off while browsing the internet.

Want to "roll back"? I tried to, but that didn't work due to "unspecified error". And even though it told me that it didn't make any changes to the drivers after restarting, some of my programs spontaneously stop working!!

Freezes, lock-ups which I used to be able to solve by closing Dumpprep.exe, I can't do, cos half the time Task Manager won't open.

Etc, etc...

In summary... Get XP. Tried, tested. Does the job!
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Old 1st June 2008, 23:12   #115
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Sounds like driver issues.
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Old 1st June 2008, 23:14   #116
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I've considered the pc repair/construction business on the side before. However, most people in this town are college students that are too broke to pay me what my time is worth.

I'll do it for close friends if they buy me a beer or two when I'm done. Sometimes girls have made me cookies for it. But I'm extremely selective about client selection when I'm being paid in beer.

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Old 1st June 2008, 23:24   #117
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I never used Vista but I think I would prefer XP anyways.
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Old 1st June 2008, 23:28   #118
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Vista

Don't pay attention to Vista criticism. After some time EVERYBODY will have Vista.
When XP was released (and when 200, and when w98) some people make critics and later they use it.
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Old 1st June 2008, 23:49   #119
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Yes, Home. It's so cheap I didn't bother with, er, alternative sources.
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Old 2nd June 2008, 04:03   #120
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nico1980
Vista

Don't pay attention to Vista criticism. After some time EVERYBODY will have Vista.
When XP was released (and when 200, and when w98) some people make critics and later they use it.
Really? Was I incredibly unusual to have kept Windows 98SE, even when 2000 and ME were around, and finally upgrade when XP was released?

XP gave me features I found very important and useful, but ME and 2000 didn't, so I never bothered to spend the money or time on them. So far, I haven't found a reason to get Vista yet, and it may be the case that I keep XP until after Vista has been bumped down by something newer. There's a chance that many people will never work with Vista for this same reason - nothing against it, it's just that they may have a damn good XP computer that lasts longer than necessary to get the "7" operating system on their next box.

Don't forget to live before you die.
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