Old 4th February 2004, 15:37   #41
Gonzotek
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Good work, baafie.

2ndart: The down link has been reported before...we have no control over when they update the website.

Your definition of spyware is not the generally accepted definition, nor the one I use (my definition is basically anything that spybot or adaware complains about). So we have to agree to disagree on that. If you need to know EXACTLY what data is being sent, I suggest you do not take our words for it(because maybe we're lying to you), but you get a packet sniffer, log your winamp usage for a week, with various options turned on and off, then TELL US your results. Provide reproducible documented evidence of private data being sent w/o prior permission, and I promise you I will take you seriously. If there's something more going on than what I believe to be and what everyone else is agreeing is going on, I (if no one else) would like to know about it.

I was away for a while.
But I'm feeling much better now.
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Old 4th February 2004, 15:38   #42
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Ah yes. The all-singing, all-dancing privacy policy. Let's see...

Frome RealOnePlayer:

"RealNetworks does not sell, rent, or share your personal information to a third party unless you consent to provide such information to a third party partner or content service."

From Windows Media Player:

"Windows Media Player at no time requests from you any "Personally Identifiable Information" (information that personally identifies you, such as your name, address, and phone number). However, there are occasions when unique machine-identifying information is transmitted across the Internet."

"The purpose of the Player ID is to allow content providers to identify your connection. [...]

To protect your privacy, by default Windows Media Player will send an anonymous Player ID which is comprised of two components: a well known static value and a randomly generated number which changes each time you request content from a streaming media server."

Amazingly enough, MS seems to be doing better than Winamp - though only at that one singular point. Still amazing.

From Winamp:

"Our recommendation wizard may ask you about the genre of music you like, specific artists that you prefer, and the mix of music that you enjoy. It may also ask you for your email address, age range, zip code and country of residence. [...]

This data is tied to your email address and is used for several purposes. It is used to make recommendations to you about other artists that we think you may like based on the information you provide to us, to update you about performances and events in your area given by your favorite artists, to understand more about our user's musical interests, and to improve our product."

Or: if you're stupid enough to give us enough to go on, we will spam you personalized spam.

MyBestBets

"To create these personalized recommendations, we collect:[...]Your email address, which is your login name."

"We use the information to determine which of the thousands of artists and albums are the ones that you’d most likely enjoy hearing. The information you provide is stored in a user profile on our secure servers and is compared with the universe of available music content to determine the best ‘matches’ based on your personal preferences."

again: we will spam you personalized spam.

Regarding what they do with all that info:

"We do, however, reserve the right to sell information once it has been stripped of personal identifiers and cannot be associated with individual users. We also reserve the right to share information with business partners of MyBestBets that have agreed to abide by our privacy policy."

As I have said before: MBB is spyware. And there is no way to remove it altogether except to not install Winamp Library - which removes streaming.

And my last gripe, the TUID:

The 'now playing' button is at the top of the Library list. I don't want a TUID. But I do sometimes accidentally click on it. Hell, if I didn't know about all this, I'd click on it just to see what it does. Wham. My winamp is now 'unique'.

I don't suppose there is detailed information about how the TUID can be removed? Or how to disable the 'now playing' button?
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Old 4th February 2004, 15:47   #43
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>Provide reproducible documented evidence of private data being sent w/o prior permission

There seems to be a misunderstanding about that. I'm not trying to say that Winamp is sneaking my credit-card number over the line. What I *am* peeved about is the information that you openly admit you collect.

For example: the 'allow us to collect aggregate information' box is ticked by default, and has this big 'recommended' thing next to it. To a less tech-savvy user, this can be taken to mean 'not ticking this box is bad for your comp', since that's what MS usually means with system settings. And for the other gripes, see above.
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Old 4th February 2004, 15:54   #44
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*note I edited your posts (stupid html tags indeed )...just an fyi

If you don't like it, don't use it. The situation is not going to change. You are aware that Nullsoft openly admits what is being collected, therefore, under *my* definition it is no longer spyware. You (any user) agrees to the license, or they discontinue use. The options to turn off these features are provided. When someone asks for help in turning them off, it is provided. Not including them is not an option. For many people, these (mbb, now playing, info viewer) are considered good things. For those people who don't like it, we try to accomadate, as much as is possible.

FYI, removing the ML doesn't remove streaming, that's built in to input plugins (each type provides it's own streaming input, if applicable). Removing the ml would remove the internet tv and radio listing options, but you can get them from shoutcast.com or winamp.com/

I was away for a while.
But I'm feeling much better now.
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Old 4th February 2004, 15:55   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by 2ndart
Frome RealOnePlayer: ..
From Windows Media Player: ..
Who cares about other players? We're talking about winamp, not about other ones.


From Winamp:

Quote:
Originally posted by 2ndart
"Our recommendation wizard may ask you about the genre of music you like, specific artists that you prefer, and the mix of music that you enjoy. <b>It may also ask you for your email address, age range, zip code and country of residence. </b>[...]

This data is tied to your email address and is used for several purposes. <b>It is used to make recommendations to you about other artists that we think you may like based on the information you provide to us, to update you about performances and events in your area given by your favorite artists</b>, to understand more about our user's musical interests, and to improve our product."

Or: if you're stupid enough to give us enough to go on, we will spam you personalized spam.
This from the MyBestBets function, which are free to use, or not to use. I really don't see how this is a problem.

Quote:
Originally posted by 2ndart
MyBestBets

"To create these personalized recommendations, we collect:[...]<b>Your email address, which is your login name</b>."

"We use the information to determine which of the thousands of artists and albums are the ones that you’d most likely enjoy hearing. The information you provide is stored in a user profile on our secure servers and is compared with the universe of available music content <b>to determine the best ‘matches’ based on your personal preferences</b>."

again: we will spam you personalized spam.
MyBestBets again. And yes, you're still free not to use it. If you don't like the terms, don't use the service..

Quote:
Originally posted by 2ndart
Regarding what they do with all that info:

"We do, however, reserve the right to sell information once it has been stripped of personal identifiers and cannot be associated with individual users. We also reserve the right to share information with business partners of MyBestBets that have agreed to abide by our privacy policy."
The good thing about anonimity, is that it's anonymous. Catch my drift?

Quote:
Originally posted by 2ndart
As I have said before: MBB is spyware. And there is no way to remove it altogether except to not install Winamp Library - which removes streaming.
Wrong. You can still add streams to the playlist, or play then directly from the main menu which is accessible from the main window.

Quote:
Originally posted by 2ndart
The 'now playing' button is at the top of the Library list. I don't want a TUID. But I do sometimes accidentally click on it. Hell, if I didn't know about all this, I'd click on it just to see what it does. Wham. My winamp is now 'unique'.

I don't suppose there is detailed information about how the TUID can be removed? Or how to disable the 'now playing' button?
The TUID is a number that is automatically created when you hit the download button to download winamp from the website. Then, if you choose to allow your winamp to report anonymous statistics, and only then, will winamp send information to the website by itself.

In short, to disable it, simply set your winamp not to use your internet connection. How hard is that?

To summarise: if you don't like these terms, don't use winamp.
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Old 4th February 2004, 16:01   #46
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A tuid is a TRACK unique identifier. Every file in the media library is assigned a tuid, because the media library, by it's very nature, requires it in order to keep track of them. You get tuids whether or not you ever allow use of any of the reporting stuff.

I was away for a while.
But I'm feeling much better now.
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Old 4th February 2004, 17:41   #47
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Is this bs still going on? lmao

to add to Gonzo's post...
...and the File Info lookup / Now Playing features require the TUID otherwise the feature won't work. That is what sane people refer to as TECHNOLOGY, not spyware.

Moving from WA-D to GD
They love a good conspiracy theory in there.
I grow weary of this nonsense.
Unleash the hounds...
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Old 4th February 2004, 17:52   #48
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2ndart, please, get a life.

When runing winamp, rip out your cable connection.

There NO spyware.

Sheash, god man, I belived that people like you would be too busy buying tinfoil to line their god damn rooms. What is it you wish to hide pal?

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Old 4th February 2004, 17:56   #49
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*paging Windude*
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Old 4th February 2004, 18:45   #50
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these features have been in Winamp, I believe, since inception. just the fact that you can TURN THEM OFF/REMOVE THEM makes them NOT spyware. I would consider peoples sigs that show you your IP addy and browser to be more like spyware than anything in Winamp.

go use WiMP
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Old 4th February 2004, 18:59   #51
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Here's another idea, Second Dart, stop smoking dope and get a goddamn job.
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Old 4th February 2004, 19:09   #52
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dope?
This muthas on crack.

DO NOT PM ME WITH TECH SUPPORT QUESTIONS
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Old 4th February 2004, 20:43   #53
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if i were a mod, i would lock this thread so fast...

so make me a mod
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Old 4th February 2004, 21:25   #54
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Wow, I'm completely blown away by this display of idiocy.

2ndart - you know the government can see you through your TV, right?

...Or how CRT monitors radiate a signal that can be picked up by an antenna and decoded to replicate the image??

My god, you are a bored individual, and you lead a horrifying life.

What shocks me the most is that, while you seem to know how to configure a hardware firewall well enough, you never stopped to think that a SOFTWARE firewall like zone alarm can be set to PREVENT SPECIFIC PROGRAMS FROM ACCESSING THE INTERNET. Or that there are a zillion other ways to stop winamp from letting in the man. If it ever did that in the first place.

Please step back and look at your life for a minute. Then fix it. Then stop wasting everyones time.

Last edited by Athauglas; 4th February 2004 at 21:53.
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Old 4th February 2004, 21:33   #55
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Round of applause please for Athauglas!

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Old 4th February 2004, 21:37   #56
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There is a GOOD reason to want Winamp 2.x -- HARDWARE REQUIREMENTS! My home computer is a 233Mhz Pentium (no 2, 3, or 4 after that, the genuine 1st-gen article!) It simply WON'T HANDLE anything 3.x or higher. And yes I know computers are getting dirt cheap, that one can assemble a Celeron-class computer for oneself for around $200, but WHY SHOULD I HAVE TO, when my dear old 233 does all I need? I do have a Intel P-4 at work...
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Old 4th February 2004, 21:45   #57
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@Hyperbolian...I ran winamp3 on a P1-200MMX...winamp 2.9x skipped when I played Quake. Winamp 5.01 lite is winamp 2.9x. fix your machine, there's something wrong.
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Old 4th February 2004, 21:51   #58
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Perhaps, like you were, he is doing more than using winamp when he sits in front of his computer?
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Old 4th February 2004, 21:57   #59
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that's the odd thing. winamp 2.9x would skip like crazy when I did anything but run winamp. winamp3 would run fine, never skipped and I had enough RAM (192) to run it without crashing or slowing considerably. however, winamp3 chewed up a p-4 2.4 w/ 256 RAM. go figure.

all that aside, 5.01 full runs perfect and only skips on my p-4 when explorer crashes or i run shareaza.

*edit...I checked the other versions of winamp installers I have on this machine...2.95, 3, 5.01. the option for collecting anon info is in all three and it still doesn't get picked up as spyware by any prog. (just to keep on topic )
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Old 4th February 2004, 22:06   #60
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Wow. The flaming. How crass.

Several things.

1. The reason I quoted from the privacy policies of other players, is because they are very similiarly worded to the highlighted portions of the Winamp privy - and yet, as we all know, they are full of spyware. I thought it'd make a nice comparison.

2. I seemed to have confused the GUID with TUID. When I referred in the posts above to the TUID, I really meant the GUID. Similiar names. The gripe I have is how Winamp attempts to make the player unique, in order to collect 'aggregate' information. Note how Microsoft Media Player does the same thing, except as an opt-in.

Now that I have corrected myself, a question: where is the unique GUID kept? How do I get rid of it?

And is it uninstalled when Winamp is? What about when I upgrade?

I realize that Winamp has to make a buck and all, and I realize also that it is still doing a damn sight better than most (though there ARE completely net-silent players out there), but you can't call an apple an orange. Not even a small one.

In the end, it is not people like me - people who read the fine-print and know what it means - that suffers from this. It's those that knows next to nothing about computers. And, I suppose, that is the target group. An electronic equivalent of the 'sucker list' for junk-mail charities.

A last bit of trivia: those sigs that show your ISP and IP numbers? They're just a trick. You get to see your own info, but the writer cannot. Same with those ads that show you the content of your C drive.
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Old 4th February 2004, 22:18   #61
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//A last bit of trivia: those sigs that show your ISP and IP numbers? They're just a trick. You get to see your own info, but the writer cannot. Same with those ads that show you the content of your C drive.//

I completely understand this, I just pointed out that, to me, it's a bit more disconcerting seeing my IP and browser displayed in someone's sig than it is to supply Nullsoft with minor info to help them understand how people use their player. it's not like they have your e-mail, home addy and telephone number, unless you gave it to them.

the only spyware I have ever found associated with Winamp is the Wild Tangent plugins.
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Old 4th February 2004, 22:41   #62
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Indeed. Unless you gave it to them. And computer-illiterate people just might. What then?

Maybe it all boils down to 'stupid people deserve to get spammed'.

It's like this: with the GUID and the usage reporting, Winamp essentially knows what porn's the most popular, but not who watches what. Except with computer illiterate people - they know exactly who watches what.

And, upon court-order, Winamp has to hand this info over.

Imagine a log of someone's porno habits being used as character evidence. Reminds me of Orwell.
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Old 4th February 2004, 22:56   #63
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wait, hang on, where's Windude? i'm sure he's got my tinfoil hat and everything

He uses statistics like a drunk uses lamp-posts: for support, not illumination.
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Old 4th February 2004, 23:00   #64
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Client Privacy Policy
Quote:
When you download and install the Winamp player, it will automatically assign to you a globally unique identifier ("GUID") that is associated with your player. The GUID will never be matched with any personally identifiable information about you and it is not shared with any third parties or partners. The GUID allows us to analyze unique player usage patterns on an anonymous, aggregated basis.
This GUID is stored in winamp.ini in the Windows dir. But if you uncheck "allow anonymous usage stats" and/or select "not connected to the internet" and/or block access in the firewall config, then this anonymous data will never be sent.
Hell, if you'd bothered to read that link I posted earlier on, you'd also see where Steve said that they never actually even look at any of it, let alone use it for anything.

For your persistence, we are now currently discussing whether to ban you from these forums for spreading falsified malicious propaganda regarding the winamp client.

This is a final warning.
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Old 4th February 2004, 23:03   #65
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Tell me, which part of what I said counts as 'falsified and malicious'?
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Old 4th February 2004, 23:03   #66
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*switching to words of one syllable*

SEC OND ART

WIN AMP CAN NOT I DEN TI FY YOU PER SON AL Y

G U I D AND E MAIL ARE NOT ASS O CI A TED

kthx

[edit] re above: EVERY SINGLE FUCKING BIT [/edit]

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Old 4th February 2004, 23:12   #67
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Tell me, of all the spywares out there, how many can actually figure out where you live? Where you work? Your true name?

None. They are content just to track your surfing habits. Yet they are still spyware.

Really, I give up. Posting isn't going to change anything. People who'll use it will use it. People who won't, won't.

But maybe I've convinced a few, at least, to read the fine print a second time.
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Old 4th February 2004, 23:16   #68
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Yes, winamp tracks what you do with the player, at a very low level. IT IS ANONYMOUS. IT IS EASY TO DISABLE. IT CLEARLY TELLS YOU WHAT IT'S DOING. This all means that IT IS NOT SPYWARE! Idiot users are going to be totally spyware-ridden anyway, if I were you I'd go and troll on the RealOne forums.

You're not going to convince anyone with your hyperbole.

I REALLY REALLY hope you don't live in the UK, cos if you do, you should go jump off a cliff right now, considering the amount of CCTV cameras that record YOU PERSONALLY every day.

He uses statistics like a drunk uses lamp-posts: for support, not illumination.
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Old 4th February 2004, 23:20   #69
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Australian service provider by the look of the IP and host router details.

/ohh look at me spying...
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Old 4th February 2004, 23:22   #70
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now THAT's invasion of privacy! QUICK! subpoena his ISP!!!

He uses statistics like a drunk uses lamp-posts: for support, not illumination.
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Old 4th February 2004, 23:33   #71
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Damn, 2ndart that tinfiol hat is preventing your brainwaves from functioning properly. If you are so parinoid about this crap, that has got to mean you are hiding something and are afraid someone might track you down

Hmm, would it be reasonable to report you to the authorities on basis of "probable cause"? (where's that sarcastic emoticon?)

me? I got nuthin' much to hide so I don't care if the data is anonymous
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Old 4th February 2004, 23:35   #72
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rellik
(where's that sarcastic emoticon?)
<< there!

He uses statistics like a drunk uses lamp-posts: for support, not illumination.
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Old 4th February 2004, 23:57   #73
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He who shouts the loudest has the most to hide.
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Old 5th February 2004, 02:33   #74
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Yes, I agree. Either he has seen Enemy of the State too many times, or he has a gigantic archive of child pr0n. So, which is it, 2ndart?

Yes, I did flame you. But you waltzed into it. If you persist, I will most likely set you ablaze again. C'mon. Its WINAMP!

But I digress. Just remember that if for whatever reason you decide you simply cannot trust all of us, or grasp the idea that not everyone is out to screw people over, then you can just unplug. The internet is just as voluntary as any of the "spyware" in winamp.

Its a real shame to think that you might actually do that, too. Winamp can be so much better when it has an internet connection.

Its not as if a lack of privacy in certain activities is a new concept. What about surveillence cameras? Credit cards? Phone bills? Your health record? The license plate on your car?! Do you just accept these as part of life, or do you live in a hole?

For your sake, I really suggest that you losen up about privacy. You will find that you have less to worry about, and that your blood pressure will go down, and in general, you will be a happier person.
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Old 5th February 2004, 07:36   #75
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Didn't you know that they gather your mother's madien name, first born child, blood type, eye color, penis size (if you're a male), hair color, toenail and fingernail length, what clothes you're wearing, who your first kiss was, who you have a crush on, what your real full name is, your age, the specs on your computer and every computer in your house (even if it's not connected to the Internet), what TV channels you watch, what book you're reading right now, what illegal MP3's you have on your computer so the RIAA can skull fuck you, how many calories a day you eat, what your sibling's names are, where you live and a few other things?

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Old 5th February 2004, 10:46   #76
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Quote:
Originally posted by 2ndart
A last bit of trivia: those sigs that show your ISP and IP numbers? They're just a trick. You get to see your own info, but the writer cannot. Same with those ads that show you the content of your C drive.
not so, the image is pulled from them, they generate the image, thus they know the details about you to do so. If they log those details or not is entirely at their discretion. but it does go to prove that you have no total anonymity on the internet.

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Old 5th February 2004, 12:33   #77
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Where is the 'shut up please' emoticon?


Seriously
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Old 5th February 2004, 12:40   #78
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Will this do....
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Old 5th February 2004, 14:21   #79
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Quote:
Originally posted by 2ndart
Library view permanently kept in 'hide info' mode.
removing functionality. someone might want it there. you can switch it off permanently in the options (i did, you can too).

Quote:
Originally posted by 2ndart
2. Rip the code out for 'usage collection' and 'automatic update'. Winamp can update manually just like everybody else.
it seems ironic that you're bitching about having to turn off functionality, while also bitching about people being too lazy to update manually. if you want to do everything yourself, go here.

Quote:
Originally posted by 2ndart
3. CDDB? Who needs CDDB?
people who pay for music. you might wanna try it.

Quote:
Originally posted by 2ndart
4. Minibrowser goes.
minibrowser's gone. you don't have to click "now playing" in the ML. in fact, if you're that paranoid about your usage being watched, you shouldn't really be looking up info about your music on the internet at all.

Quote:
Originally posted by 2ndart
5. Investigate the streaming process.
sorry, i don't know enough about this one to know what you mean.

Quote:
Originally posted by 2ndart
6. Make the option to keep a log of all ip's contacted, and maybe a blacklist.
that's what firewalls are for. people who don't run a firewall wouldn't - in general - have a damned clue what that option is for anyway.

Quote:
Originally posted by 2ndart
7. Automatic deletion of all winamp version-related cookies on startup.
i don't know if such cookies exist. i'll go have a look.

Quote:
Originally posted by 2ndart
8. Remove the option for MyBestBets completely. Stupid people sometimes neglect to do that themselves.
but what if someone wanted to use it? it's not like it doesn't work with false details (hell, it asked for my zipcode, and i don't live in the US!).

Quote:
Originally posted by 2ndart
9. Remove all the other 'extra features' that comes optional, such as the info viewer and 'now playing'. Probably won't work without TUID anyway.
optional adjective If something is optional, you can choose whether to do it, pay it, buy it, etc.
(cambridge english dictionary, concatonated to one line)
if you don't want it, turn it off. no ifs, not buts. turn it off. people - believe it or not - use these features. some people even like them. and if they don't... they don't use them!

Quote:
Originally posted by 2ndart
10. I quote the privy policy:
Our player automatically gathers certain anonymous usage information from you including, but not limited to, the length of your session, the number of tracks and streams you've played in a certain session, the number of CDs you've burned, played, or ripped, the number of tracks you've transferred to a portable device, the number of playlists you've created, the number of plug-ins you've installed, and the number of skins you've installed. We use this information to better understand how people use the various parts of our service and to improve the content, features and functionality of the player.
and it's optional. you can quite easily turn off all networking functionality within winamp, or pick and choose which parts you want.

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Old 5th February 2004, 14:27   #80
Twilightseer
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I have to say that I truly admire people like baafie, Gonzotek and zootm for having enough patience to write these long rational well-argued posts and not giving in to anger.
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