Old 20th December 2004, 11:33   #1
akrall
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 168
Send a message via ICQ to akrall
Peer to Peer (p2p)

Guys.. I know that there are a lot of p2p posts out there but I was wondering if somebody here has a howto or something and would recommend amongst all the p2p servers or software out there, which one works better (under linux) and with dnas or steamcast?
akrall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th December 2004, 12:43   #2
sankt
Moderator
 
sankt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: www.ScenicRadio.com
Posts: 2,975
Peercast is not fault tollerant.
www.peercast.org

P2P Radio is hampered by NAT issues.
p2p-radio.sourceforge.net

Nodezilla is fault tollerant but beta-ish for streaming.
Very large core download.
evl.sourceforge.net/

StreamerP2P has major security issues with its "Browser". The same situation that plagued the winamp minibrowser.
www.streamerp2p.net

Dijjer is fault tollerant, small core download, but beta-ish.
The developer is Ian Clarke, whom the Massachusetts Institute of Technology selected as one of the top 100 developers under 35 for his work on FreeNet in 2003.

Dijjr requires a simple java jar download that I believe could be implimented using JNLP. Also has a mozilla xpi plugin available.
dijjer.sourceforge.net

Scenic Television is your ambient window to the world - - Television.ScenicRadio.com

Last edited by sankt; 20th December 2004 at 13:10.
sankt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th December 2004, 16:54   #3
akrall
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 168
Send a message via ICQ to akrall
so, which one do you recommend and works with dnas?
akrall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th December 2004, 18:37   #4
Inedible Bulk
Forum King
 
Inedible Bulk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: You're the man now dog
Posts: 2,303
i'm quite sure dijjer isn't made for anything but http files.

Originally posted by yeshuawatso :
...get Nullsoft to [accept] new moderators? ... election? ... If Inedible Bulk is the candidate, then I give my vote.
Inedible Bulk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th December 2004, 20:12   #5
sankt
Moderator
 
sankt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: www.ScenicRadio.com
Posts: 2,975
Quote:
Originally posted by Inedible Bulk
i'm quite sure dijjer isn't made for anything but http files.
Ian seems to think otherwise, so you would have to discuss the merits of this with him.

Quote:
Dijjer streaming
Could a Winamp PLS or M3U file be "streamed" using Dijjer ?


From: Ian Clarke <ian@lo...>
Re: Dijjer streaming

Well, basically yes. If these formats reference relative URLs then it should be fine - just prefix the URLs with http://127.0.0.1:9115/.

In particular, note that Dijjer, unlike many comparable applications, downloads files starting at the beginning and streams them to the HTTP client as they are retrieved, making it particularly suitable to this application.

Note, however, that the Dijjer network remains very small during these early stages and thus it may not be fast enough to stream live until the network is larger (which should happen once we try for larger-scale deployments).

Ian.

Founder, The Freenet Project http://freenetproject.org/

Scenic Television is your ambient window to the world - - Television.ScenicRadio.com
sankt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th December 2004, 22:53   #6
Inedible Bulk
Forum King
 
Inedible Bulk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: You're the man now dog
Posts: 2,303
well thats what i read on slashdot.

oh well.

Originally posted by yeshuawatso :
...get Nullsoft to [accept] new moderators? ... election? ... If Inedible Bulk is the candidate, then I give my vote.
Inedible Bulk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd December 2004, 06:02   #7
rockouthippie
Banned
 
rockouthippie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Oregon
Posts: 11,002
Dijjer is too beta for a look. It's just Peercast on a different day for NSV purposes. Sankt sent me this to look at. Sankt is a good guy.

I'm still looking at P2P in real-time being an impossibility. I have some experience running game servers, so trust me...

I could explain the math, but....

First, it is impossible to control packet data retrieval in a real stream, in real time, so that a percentage of packets can be hosted by other users. The overhead is too high. If you have an air cooled brain, consider average ping at 200 ms in one direction. That's probably an optimistic lag.

Second, a raw relay is not viable, because home and most inexpensive business and DSL cable services are tuned to the downlink. You can D/L 1.5-3MBPS, but uplink is usually less than 25% of that. That is usually shared in a household.

Third. Most guys don't wear a propeller for a hat. Download this, download that..... naaahhh!....

Probably everyone reading this could share my channel by Peercast. Did any of you?. Nope.

That's because ... duh 232 kbps ..... that's a lot.

OR your kid decided to download the demo game, skipping the guy you had downstream.

I use dedicated servers remotely. My local bandwidth is 1.5 MBPS/ 384 kbps. If I watch my channels.... deh... 232 kbps .... not a prob ......

If I were to relay from here.... NOT GONNA HAPPEN.

My users just load winamp, click on a link, watch some vids.

I use an analog watch.
rockouthippie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd December 2004, 06:36   #8
Inedible Bulk
Forum King
 
Inedible Bulk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: You're the man now dog
Posts: 2,303
i cant relay your 232 kbps, my isp caps me at 256 (haha lie i get maybe 100 on a good day, fuckers) and have this auto cap, if i upload 55~ mb at full speed (which is the 256) within 2 hours, then i am dropped to a lower speed (128, hahaa, 50 maybe kbps) for the remainder of the 2 hours. this is how my crappy isp works, i complained all over to darkstar about it, and he sympathizes then goes back to laughing on his comcast connection.

Originally posted by yeshuawatso :
...get Nullsoft to [accept] new moderators? ... election? ... If Inedible Bulk is the candidate, then I give my vote.
Inedible Bulk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd December 2004, 08:40   #9
rockouthippie
Banned
 
rockouthippie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Oregon
Posts: 11,002
Yes Bulk-

That's why P2P in any form is useless for streaming purposes.

Even Darkstar would laugh, because P2P is absolutely useless for what we do.

Oh, for cryin out loud. Usually my posts here are like pissing into a fan.
rockouthippie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd December 2004, 12:32   #10
Dude2222
Senior Member
 
Dude2222's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 105
another one is Abacast Distributed Streaming
http://www.abacast.com/

Dude2222 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd December 2004, 14:14   #11
sankt
Moderator
 
sankt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: www.ScenicRadio.com
Posts: 2,975
There are actually several companies out there ( And open source projects as well. ) - each claiming they have the magic key feature.

These companies include : Chaincast, Allcast, Synccast, Abacast, Rawflow, Atmark-Techno, Network Foundation Technologies, End System Multicast, StreamerP2P, Flatcast.
( Soon to be launched - CyberSky )

Companies that ceased business operation. VTrails and Blue Falcon Networks.

Bulk makes a very valid point though - most ISP's cap upload bandwidth. Video compression technology is severly lacking for encoding at rates below 100 kbs.

The biggest hurdle is to achieve quality video at a viewing size of 320 x 240 ( or better ) with a encoding rate of less than 100 kbs.

I think wavelet compression is the right direction to achieve this, its just a matter of time for getting all the bugs worked out.

PS . .
JNLP or Java web launch would be a far better method of deployment versus ActiveX.

Scenic Television is your ambient window to the world - - Television.ScenicRadio.com
sankt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd December 2004, 16:44   #12
Inedible Bulk
Forum King
 
Inedible Bulk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: You're the man now dog
Posts: 2,303
Well, shit. You guys still don't get it. I was thinking about this the other day, how about we do like bittorrent does (not in the seeder/leecher method that sankt thinks in) and split each file into chunks?

I was thinking (and this is a bad example) like this:

+. That's it. [+]. Four sections, four streams, all low bitrate. When you combine the four small streams, you get one big picture. This is of course not the only size, but 'slicing' could work out well. it would use less bandwidth, build a picture of varying size (more slices, larger image or just more peers needed to see the single image).

Just the idea.

Originally posted by yeshuawatso :
...get Nullsoft to [accept] new moderators? ... election? ... If Inedible Bulk is the candidate, then I give my vote.
Inedible Bulk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd December 2004, 18:04   #13
sankt
Moderator
 
sankt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: www.ScenicRadio.com
Posts: 2,975
Someone from freenet played around that very concept.

In essence, they "chunked" or broke up a media stream, added FEC ( forward error correction ) and sent the packaged bits off to where ever.

On the receiving end - the user would decode the FEC data, assembled the "chunks" back into a proper order, and then feed the re-assembeled data stream to a media player.

The software consisted of something called "fish stream".

The version .09 that is refered to in the Infoanarchy story is not available.

I do have a earlier .07 version available if any one wants it. It is Tar compressed.

It was a mix of python and C+ if I remember correctly. They did manage to get a test stream up and running at one time, but the latency on Freenet was really wretched and the project died off.

www.infoanarchy.org/story/2002/10/23/14824/843

More information

http://www.mail-archive.com/devl@fre.../msg05537.html

http://www.mail-archive.com/devl@fre.../msg06292.html

http://freenet.sourceforge.net/lang/...php?page=tools

Scenic Television is your ambient window to the world - - Television.ScenicRadio.com
sankt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd December 2004, 19:59   #14
Jay
Moderator Alumni
 
Jay's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Next Door
Posts: 8,942
i also have been thinking along the same lines as that concept, the problems I see are network management. Also the network would have to really be aware of what nodes work and which don't and also the slicing would have to be limited to a few clients because as you scale up the cpu goes up and QoS goes down. Also latency is alot more noticable in such designs because a large buffer would have to exist to give the most effect time to all clients to get data to the client. Jesuseed runs on this concept as well I believe.
Jay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th December 2004, 00:10   #15
Inedible Bulk
Forum King
 
Inedible Bulk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: You're the man now dog
Posts: 2,303
Quote:
Originally posted by KXRM
i also have been thinking along the same lines as that concept, the problems I see are network management. Also the network would have to really be aware of what nodes work and which don't and also the slicing would have to be limited to a few clients because as you scale up the cpu goes up and QoS goes down. Also latency is alot more noticable in such designs because a large buffer would have to exist to give the most effect time to all clients to get data to the client. Jesuseed runs on this concept as well I believe.
yeah, i thought about that, you'd need a set number of peers or you'd miss chunks of the screen, so another concept could be instead of splitting the screen up into even sized sections, go on a concept that i think pal uses, actually probably not, but its still a good idea dangit.

i am a madman and so i actually made a gif to show what would happen.



the idea is, one guy gets the red pixels, one guy gets the blue, one the yellow, and one the green, and this way, if someone sucks, you still get most of the image. this is probably already out there and sankt will know what to say, it may ahve been one of the implementations of freenet, but, hey, just an idea.

Originally posted by yeshuawatso :
...get Nullsoft to [accept] new moderators? ... election? ... If Inedible Bulk is the candidate, then I give my vote.
Inedible Bulk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th December 2004, 15:58   #16
ken52787
Major Dude
 
ken52787's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,297
Send a message via AIM to ken52787
Well I've been thinking on this subject and opened my old p2pnsv source and dusted it off and went to work.

The main drawback I figure is that no one is going to go out of their way to get p2p software when they can go the shoutcast route and see streams with no effort. So I started messing around and got an idea of making it so that the viewer doesn't have to go out of their way to get it. ActiveX!

I realize that with more and more people leaving IE (firefox has 21% of market share last I checked) this isn't the best solution, but its all I can really figure out how to do, so screw you

I still have tons of work to do, but below I have a screenshot of a working version of it. It'll take me awhile to get a version ready for release (and it may even not ever get released) so don't get your hopes up.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg w00t.jpg (63.4 KB, 227 views)

NSV downloads
An in-depth step by step guide for newbies, coming soon.
ken52787 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th December 2004, 02:13   #17
rockouthippie
Banned
 
rockouthippie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Oregon
Posts: 11,002
With torrents you'll find leechers, more than seeders, even when it's to their advantage to seed a file, at least temporarily.

Another problem we have is security. Emule is a nightmare.

Ken -

ActiveX is a great tool, except you'll see less people doing that, again because of the security risk.

Even if they haven't done the smart thing and aren't using Firefox, I think you'll find people reticent to load activex controls.

Java might have been an option, except IE won't load VM automatically like it used to.

Current filesharing technology accomplishes it's goal, because it doesn't worry about real time. My slots are more than 100 megabytes an hour. I often can't get that from a torrent.

Bulk-

The idea you mentioning of splitting the screen by chrominance data doesn't exist in our technology and that isn't the way any of the codecs work. Frames can't be split like that (chroma and luma), because with the codecs we have frames are just a time reference. Compression is not like a film frame. It's a compression of the change (delta) of the frame, from one frame to the next.

Packet splitting would be possible, but it would be sort of like playing 3 card Monte. Who's got the queen... did he really get the queen, if not who else has the queen?. Are your sure he got the queen?.

That sounds like a lot of overhead.
rockouthippie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th December 2004, 02:58   #18
sankt
Moderator
 
sankt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: www.ScenicRadio.com
Posts: 2,975
Packet splitting

Thats why some implimentations of Multicast streaming use Forward Error Correction.

If data packets drop out, The FEC can be decoded and re-inserted to make up for the missing data.

Java

For java implimentation, use JNLP for launching a application. JNLP is multi browser / multi platform supported.

Scenic Television is your ambient window to the world - - Television.ScenicRadio.com
sankt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th December 2004, 06:54   #19
Inedible Bulk
Forum King
 
Inedible Bulk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: You're the man now dog
Posts: 2,303
Quote:
Originally posted by rockouthippie
Bulk-

The idea you mentioning of splitting the screen by chrominance data doesn't exist in our technology and that isn't the way any of the codecs work. Frames can't be split like that (chroma and luma), because with the codecs we have frames are just a time reference. Compression is not like a film frame. It's a compression of the change (delta) of the frame, from one frame to the next.

Packet splitting would be possible, but it would be sort of like playing 3 card Monte. Who's got the queen... did he really get the queen, if not who else has the queen?. Are your sure he got the queen?.

That sounds like a lot of overhead.
I did not actually mean the colors. I meant every red pixel (not acutally red pixels, but the locations of the example red pixels), so that instead of splitting the thing into 4ths, you make it like a screen door, with meshes, so that you can still get an image without the full picture. but, yes, that would be a biznatch to code, and would require specially formatted stuff.

Originally posted by yeshuawatso :
...get Nullsoft to [accept] new moderators? ... election? ... If Inedible Bulk is the candidate, then I give my vote.
Inedible Bulk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th December 2004, 10:55   #20
rockouthippie
Banned
 
rockouthippie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Oregon
Posts: 11,002
OK, but basically NSV TV itself is an experiment, with marginal codecs. I have enough trouble keeping the audio near the picture frames, and I do a better job than most people.

Let's take a twitchy technology and add some more sand to the gears. As far as it goes, I couldn't even reliably do real-time broadcasting from here. That would be 468 kbps, where I have 384, maybe with a tail wind.

Wake me up when anyone really comes up with something that works. By that time, we'll all have more bandwidth so we won't have to worry about it.
rockouthippie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th December 2004, 13:12   #21
Dude2222
Senior Member
 
Dude2222's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 105
Next month, Adultinternet TV are partnering up with Abacast with a lineup that includes reality shows, news, sitcoms and cartoons
Quote:
"Nobody has done a real adult TV station, that's like real TV, supported by advertisers and free to viewers," says co-founder Mark Newman. "This isn't just streaming porn. We're trying to run exactly like a TV station."
source:
http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,66127,00.html
Dude2222 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th December 2004, 17:19   #22
Inedible Bulk
Forum King
 
Inedible Bulk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: You're the man now dog
Posts: 2,303
i saw adultinternet.tv in google when i was searching for 'internet tv' to find something for another thread here

watch how unpopular this becomes

Originally posted by yeshuawatso :
...get Nullsoft to [accept] new moderators? ... election? ... If Inedible Bulk is the candidate, then I give my vote.
Inedible Bulk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th December 2004, 06:53   #23
rockouthippie
Banned
 
rockouthippie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Oregon
Posts: 11,002
Quote:
Originally posted by sankt
Video compression technology is severly lacking for encoding at rates below 100 kbs.
It's lacking at more than twice that. It starts to get good at 200K.

Look at some of the 500K anime channels (out of my budget).
rockouthippie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th May 2006, 08:07   #24
catty
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1
I want to streaming a mp3 based radio station, which one can support mp3? I found sopcast and streamerp2p, but there are not enough help. Seems sopcast is good and has more controls on authorization? but its too complicated. Can streamerp2p be embedded into a webpage? some suggestions?
catty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th May 2006, 10:26   #25
Inedible Bulk
Forum King
 
Inedible Bulk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: You're the man now dog
Posts: 2,303
Quote:
Originally posted by catty
I want to streaming a mp3 based radio station, which one can support mp3? I found sopcast and streamerp2p, but there are not enough help. Seems sopcast is good and has more controls on authorization? but its too complicated. Can streamerp2p be embedded into a webpage? some suggestions?
NO

NO

NO

GET OUT

You bumped a thread from late 2004 for a question that has NOTHING TO DO with NSV. Do you not get that?

All of them support mp3, especially peercast, which I'm sure has been mentioned and I'm sure is the easiest to setup but I'm sure that went over your head when you saw that it would be a great idea to ask "which one of these items which has been bastardized to support nsv as they natively supported MP3 will support mp3"??????

ALL OF THEM. Except for ken's but I don't think he had his up and running at that time.


Edit: Holy crap

Quote:
Originally posted by Inedible Bulk
yeah, i thought about that, you'd need a set number of peers or you'd miss chunks of the screen, so another concept could be instead of splitting the screen up into even sized sections, go on a concept that i think pal uses, actually probably not, but its still a good idea dangit.
Quote:
wikipedia
A new solution is to stripe a live stream into multiple substreams, akin to RAID striping. Forward error correction and timing information is applied to these substreams such that the original stream can be reformed using at least all but one of the substreams (fountain codes are an efficient way to make and combine the substreams). In turn, these streams are relayed using the first method.

Another solution is to permit clients to connect to a new relay and resume streaming from where they left off by their old relay. Relays would retain a back buffer to permit clients to resume streaming from anywhere within the range of said buffer. This would essentially be an extension to the Icecast protocol.

Originally posted by yeshuawatso :
...get Nullsoft to [accept] new moderators? ... election? ... If Inedible Bulk is the candidate, then I give my vote.
Inedible Bulk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th May 2006, 13:58   #26
sankt
Moderator
 
sankt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: www.ScenicRadio.com
Posts: 2,975
There are actually several media streaming projects that are attempting to utilize a Raid striping system for content distribution.

Its all early alpha stuff, but it looks very promising.

Scenic Television is your ambient window to the world - - Television.ScenicRadio.com
sankt is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply
Go Back   Winamp & Shoutcast Forums > Shoutcast > Shoutcast TV / Nullsoft Video

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump