Crikey! So Many Classes!

[Bop]

I guess this question is aimed primarily at our English mates but anyone with some relative knowledge on the subject please feel free to share your thoughts... is there still a stigma based on class in Great Britain? If you are English, have you experienced classism? What class do you belong to (upper, upper-middle, lower-middle, working, etc.)? I know that GB is trying to move away from this 'caste-like' system, but is it really working? Are there barriers to education, profession, etc. that are still evident? Thanks (in advance) for your input.

[Shenlong]

Crikey! Look at this, ain't she a beauty? She is so protective of 'er children, she will attack ANYONE that get's near her or the children. Lemme show you how she would attack me, like she would otha' intruders!

I HAD TO DO IT!

[pAk]

The social classes are still very much here, although nowhere near what they used to be, and they are much more fluid. In a work and education environment it is not so evident, but as I noticed sitting around with my friends just tonight, it is still present at a social level. I can't say too much about professional life becuase I'm still a uni student, however I know that at my university and most others there isn't too much of a class system, the exceptions are oxford and cambridge which just seems to team with upper class pansy's. There is also somewhat of a divide between the old poly's and the red brick uni's but it is generally insignificant, once you are in the uni, then you become part of that uni no matter what your background.

What pisses me off is the conversation that I had tonight, I would say say that I am upper middle class, if it has to be defined at all, and most of the people around me are (I suppose that's the nature of my uni (oh well, just blown my last paragraph)). The conversation revolved about a party down in london and getting on guest lists to 'exclusive' clubs, my friends were gloating about how they had got into this club and that when in actual fact they wouldn't have a clue what an exclusive club was if it came up and hit them round the back of the head. they are new money, upper class wannabes, they don't have a clue.

So in answer to your question...Yes, the class system is still present, not as bad as it was and people are now able to move around in it with more ease, but then I am biased...I'm upper middle class, lived in the outskirts of london, attended one of the top boys grammar schools in the country and am now at one of the top universities in the country. I suppose I see the benefits of the class system

[GLewellen]

Originally posted by Shenlong
Crikey! Look at this, ain't she a beauty? She is so protective of 'er children, she will attack ANYONE that get's near her or the children. Lemme show you how she would attack me, like she would otha' intruders!

I HAD TO DO IT!

lol, I needed a good chuckel.

[Curi0us_George]

The class system exists everywhere. It always will. But, it's not nearly as bad it it used to be, and it's a social thing, now.

People will always attempt to spend time with those they are comfortable with. And people are comfortable around those that are similar to themselves. That's why we have racial separation in school cafeterias. It just happens. That's why you don't normally see the guy who can barely afford school supplies hanging out with the guy who drives the Ferarri. It will always happen.

However, that's not the same as having a caste system which interferes with social advancement. That would be a problem, but I haven't honestly seen that too much.

[c2R]

Originally posted by Boplicity
I guess this question is aimed primarily at our English mates but anyone with some relative knowledge on the subject please feel free to share your thoughts... is there still a stigma based on class in Great Britain? If you are English, have you experienced classism? What class do you belong to (upper, upper-middle, lower-middle, working, etc.)? I know that GB is trying to move away from this 'caste-like' system, but is it really working? Are there barriers to education, profession, etc. that are still evident? Thanks (in advance) for your input.

Yes. There is a class system still in the country based around the aristocratic elite (large landowners, lords, and the like), and normal everyday people (who are basically divided into the blue and white collar professions).

The differences between working and middle class were basically done away with in the 50s and 60s with the introduction of free university placements, allowing people from the working class to gain education and make money. Therefore I feel the introduction of tuition fees for students is a retrograde step, ensuring that the lowest classes of people remain that way as they are unable to afford to go to the good universities.

It is however interesting to note that there exists a modern class grading system - A, B, C1, C2, D, and E - based on the type of employment, education level, and social status.

From this list the ABC1's are the "well-off" demographic, who are most likely to own their own houses and cars, as well as watch a larger proportion of BBC television; whereas the C2DE's are more likely to live in ex-council owned accomodation and watch a disporportionate amount of commercial television. (note that this is just a general trend - I'm not trying to say that all manual laborers live in council flats and watch ITV 24/7)

Of course, education is the only real barrier to most professions these days - if you're not qualified enough, you cannot do the job - and the majority of jobs in the UK are in the service sector of the economy, rather than in maufacturing or agriculture, which I guess has helped reduce the differences between the everyday folk of the UK.

As for me? I just about make it into the C1 category.

[Bop]

I agree that it exists on some level everywhere but in Great Britian, India, and other countries it has the ability to deters social advancement. In the United States it's not bad at all. In fact people from humble backgrounds are actually applauded for making it big.

[Curi0us_George]

I hate to sound ignorant, but how exactly is the "class" system in the UK holding people back?

[Bop]

Don't know if it is... that's why I asked. I know it was a big deal a while back. Though as Pak said it still exists at the Oxford/Cambridge level. Just trying to get a feeling from those who live in it.

[c2R]

Well, anyone can go to Oxford or Cambridge if they are good enough - class isn't really important as far as that's concerned. What I am saying is that some people aren't able to go to university at all because of the costs involved - it's those people that are excluded from the education system will not be able to improve their living standards.

[Curi0us_George]

The truly top colleges are always going to be exclusive. It's that way in the US, too. Of course, in the US, we have virtually no "free" education at the college level. Most people pay with student loans.

[c2R]

Originally posted by Curi0us_George
The truly top colleges are always going to be exclusive. It's that way in the US, too. Of course, in the US, we have virtually no "free" education at the college level. Most people pay with student loans.

That's not quite what I meant... (I'm crap at explaining things well, particularly when I've not been able to sleep all night )

If, for example, I was clever enough I could have easily gone to Oxford or Cambride - I actually got a degree at the University of London, despite my grandparents generation having a working class background.

This is because in the UK these days the tuition fees for all institutions are identical, and a small loan is given to cover the cost of living and the fees. The government also regulates the amount of private students Oxford and Cambridge are allowed to take, to ensure there is no bias.

The main problem is that people from poorer families cannot afford to move away to a better university (or to go to a university at all) on the loan given, particularly if the family is earning around the £20,000 per year mark (as opposed to even poorer families, which receive bigger grants). This means that they either have to go to a local university that perhaps isn't as good, or do without entirely - even though they would be capable of going to a better university and getting a better job to elevate their social status because of it.

You can see from the university admission statistics that there has been a marked increase in students studying from home since the introduction of the loans and fees system. This situation will only be made worse by government plans to charge the full economic rates for the loans (rather than just the nominal rate of inflation)

Therefore, in my opinion the system is unfair, as the poorer students do not get given the chance to go to the top universities by virtue of their financial status; and it is also apparant that people in the top jobs generally go to the better universities.

[Curi0us_George]

Can students not take out additional loans?

Like I said, in the US, the students pay a lot for school. The government chips in, too, but not the way they do in other countries. Students from poorer areas can still go to school in other places. They may need to take out additional loans (or get jobs), but it's entirely possible.

But then, it's possible to get something like $120000 dollars in standard student loans in the US. You can actually get more than that, but then you have to go into a different type of student loan.

[Xerxes]

Originally posted by Curi0us_George
Students from poorer areas can still go to school in other places...

Affirmative Action programs help this although I do not completely approve ...

[c2R]

Can students not take out additional loans?

No, that's part of the stupidity of the system - the actual loan size possible is determined by the income of the parents. Not disposable income, either - but income earned (this is so petty it includes interest on savings as income...).

You would have to actually take a commercial loan to get more money - something a student cannot do (particularly a poor student), as they have no collatoral to take the loan out against.

[Curi0us_George]

c2R, that does suck. :\

Xerxes, I don't approve of "Affirmative Action" at all. It's simply more descrimination, in the other direction. However, 120000 dollars can support someone quite nicely for 4 years. It is quite possible to go through college on just student loans.

[james]

I am starting University in 2 weeks time. I'm expected to support myself on £3905/year... this is the absolute maximum loan, my parents earn very little. It's ridiculous! I'm going to HAVE to get a job to supplement my income so my studies will probably suffer
Anyhow
Classes- I suppose i'd define my family as upper-middle class... though this isn't because we earn a lot! I've been lucky enough to go to a very good school (through charitable donations) because my grandfather is a Freemason, and the Masons have a charity dedicated to helping children and grandchildren of their members get a good education.
I've found that because of the way I speak (some people consider it 'posh' (but BH will tell you it's not )) I get stick at the place I work, i'm a waiter at the moment.
The class system still exists. It still happens. There are big diffs between 'working' class and 'upper' class , and there are noticeable differences between middle and the other two as well.
Ramble over, thankyou for listening.

[Bilbo Baggins]

There is still lots of predujice against people of different classes. I went to a school that is a bastion of Middle England, yet I am from a working class family, and have inherently working class values. I was often the subject of ridicule (especially during the early years). The worst time was when someone asked what your parents earned / what job they had. It is not easy being an 11 year old to say to all these sons and daughter of doctors, dentists and company chairmen that your dad is retired through ill health from his job at the steel foundry. Having a broad Black Country accent can be a pain too, but most of the time it was ncie to be a bit different.

The University system in this country is excessivly stupid and beaurocratic, not to mention expenisive. My loan and Student Support have been delayed AGAIN by incompetent beaurocracy and pen pushers who need yet more paperwork to confirm that my dad cannot and doesn't work and that he recieves state benefits. I am not sure at the moment how i am going to pay for the first term.

[pAk]

Originally posted by Herbster
I am starting University in 2 weeks time. I'm expected to support myself on £3905/year... this is the absolute maximum loan, my parents earn very little. It's ridiculous! I'm going to HAVE to get a job to supplement my income so my studies will probably suffer

As a comparison, I get the minimum student loan - about £2900, everyone is entitled to this if they want it. And because I am in my final year, I get about £300 less this year - so 2600. The government may think they know how much people need, but they have no clue. The amount they give me is not enough to cover my rent and tuition fees of £1100, let alone living. Although my parents are supposed to contribute (the government deems them rich enough), they cannot afford to do so and even if they did they are only expected to contribute UP to the maximum loan that herb gets - still not enough to cover rent, tuition and living.

It is possible to get extended loans, but they are only worth about £1000 in a year, and you literally have to beg for it, giving every reason under the sun as to why you cannot survive on what you are already given by the oh so generous government/student loan company.

Something else that may be of interest to the americans is the idea of an overdraft...Student bank accounts allow overdrafts of about £1500 interest free, so some money comes from there too

[fwgx]

I don't know what class I come under but reasonably well off. I get the full student loan because of the way the system works, they only take into consideration what the parent I'm living with earns. My parents are divorced you see. They don't take into consideration what my stepdad earns, which is quite a lot, my mum only works 2 days a week though so that's what they use to base the ammount on.

Also, on my mums advice and persuasion, I've saved my entire student loan in a high interest savings account. So my parents are paying for everything, rent and living (I don't have to pay fees either) and I'm earning a fair bob on the loan which at then end I'll be able to pay straight off. So far this is working quite well, but can be annoying. I've only got a £500 overdraft but I'll go get it increased soon.

Also in Durham there tends to be the Oxbridge reject lot

[ujay]

The class system in this country was broken by the Second world war, and the 'Butler Act' that followed the setting up of a strong Labour government after it's end. Until then the class system was firmly in place and determined your social acceptance, education and earnings to a greater extent than any other factor. With the war itself throwing people from all walks of life together in a way that had not happened before, the need for more important values than class became important. Living and dying together forces a reapparaisal of 'received values', and afterwards, the need for an educated workforce to take on the work of reconstruction more or less destroyed the blocks on education that existed up until then.

The value of education was recognised by both upper and lower classes, and in the pre war years there were strenuous efforts by the Workers Education Societies to make improvements, and strenuous efforts by the Establishment to keep it the way it was.
The Labour landslide after the war swept all that away, there was a general feeling that never again would one class sacrifice itself in defense of values that benefitted only 'others'. (Goodbye to the Ragged Trousered Philanthropists for a while). The 'Butler Education Act' established free universal education and set up the Grammer/Secondary system as a way of making the most of the talent that was available. There was much talk of meritocracy at the time.

Myself, I was born just at the end of the war, and grew up in this Brave New World. My father was an agricultural worker and we lived in a tied cottage (a house that went with the job), but all three children managed to get to grammar school and all moved firmly into the middle classes, a form of social mobility that would have been impossible until then. Higher education was similarly opened up, again on a free and universal basis, and again I was able to benefit, even to the extent of starting a family while I was at college, something almost unheard of today. These were the halcyon years and a large student body, educated and maintained by the state, had much to do with the explosion of youth culture that took place in the late sixties, yet another factor that broke the old class values.
I've seen these opportunities erroded away since, more through perceived economic necessity than for any class reasons, My own children had only their tuition paid at college and managed well enough, but it seems now that all fees have to be paid and I can see this as an increasing block to many.

As a final thought, the class system may have died, but 'status' is always with us, and will find a means of expression regardless.

UJ

[Vie]

yes its still here, I lived in abject poverty for a good few years because of it (please dont ask, VERY Bad memories) and it is VERY prevailent in society.

People like me genraly are FORCED into the social stero type of Delinquents, the soll reason I am not is my upbringing Campaining against the tory government untill Labour finaly got in, now I live in a nice house have a computer, cable, TV and vidio in my room. a big inprovement on a house with no glass in the windows, sorry but I get fed up with people saying the class sistem isnt prevailent, Try living in the bottom of the pile and fighting tooth and nail to get anything done.