The American weapon-policy

[nybergh]

What do you think about it?
Does a free country need guns?
Am I anti-american [a commie or whatever] when I even whisper about this?
Wanna see something pathetic?
Look here: http://www.nra.org/

[iomegajaz]

Further reading: http://www.bowlingforcolumbine.com

I don't know why there were over 11,000 gun-related murders in the U.S. (during '99 if I recall correctly )compared with less than a hundred in the UK, Japan, Austrlalia, Germany, etc. No idea. What are "they" afraid of, to the point where owning a gun is normal? Again, no idea.

This isn't me disliking Americans, it's just me being sad that you kill each other so readily, and have guns everywhere. It's just really saddenning.

[d0rk]

Being an american I feel the same way Hugh.

[sgtfuzzbubble011]

Does a free country need guns? Hell yes. The second the government tries to take away that right is the second this is no longer a free country. That right was given to this country's citizens to protect themselves from the very government that might one day try to force a nondemocratic form of rule over the country... something that might very well happen if that right weren't in place.

Wanna see something pathetic?
Look here: http://www.nra.org/

What the hell are you talking about?

[nybergh]

What the hell are you talking about?

I'm talking about the stupidity of selling guns to almost anyone who wants one.
The National Rifle Assiciation is (surprise surprise) an organisation for those who love their guns. And I called them pathetic. What I wanted was angry comments like yours....

[sgtfuzzbubble011]

Who said I was angry?

And I know what the NRA is. Why you think they're pathetic is what I wanted to know.

[d0rk]

The NRA held a convention 1 month or so after the columbine shooting in the town it happend, and also held a convention in the town of Flint, Mich. where another shooting (I believe school) happend a month or so afterwards. They had never been to either of the towns before and suddenly there is a convention? Im all for freedom, but my freedom should be able to walk outside and not have to worry about being shot by some fucker who shouldn't have a gun.

[nybergh]

What I wanted was angry comments like yours....

Damn, I forgot the smiley.
A country where the government is popular when they are trying to hide away all the sources to the serious social problems is pathetic. The country I'm talking about might be the mightiest nation in the world right now, but it doesn't make this less absurd.

[d0rk]

Btw, I checked up on the Flint, Michigan story. That is where a 6 year old was killed by a 7 year old with a gun.

[sgtfuzzbubble011]

A country where the government is popular when they are trying to hide away all the sources to the serious social problems is pathetic. The country I'm talking about might be the mightiest nation in the world right now, but it doesn't make this less absurd.

Yeah, well there's a lot of absurd crap going on around the world all the time. Point is, if someone wants a gun, they're going to get one... legally or not. If you make all guns illegal, then you're taking away the right of the law-abiding citizens to protect themselves from the people that will simply acquire said guns through less-than-legal means. Personally, I like the fact that I can protect my home with a firearm if need be. If someone breaks into my house at night and threatens my life with a gun, then what the hell am I supposed to do if the government has made it illegal for me to own one? Like it or not, guns are here to stay.

[ScorLibran]

I agree with the concept that a free country should allow its citizens to own guns. But consider a different perspective: reduce or eliminate the need for people to own guns. Military and law enforcement would of course still need guns. Target shooters, competition marksmen and collectors could get special permits to own guns for their hobby/sport. But it is indeed sad that people feel the need to own guns to protect themselves. Take away the cause of the fear that makes people feel this way, and you take away their need for guns. Easier said than done, crime prevention is. But it's the only effective treatment for the problem at hand.

I would not propose outlawing guns because of the people who like target shooting and collecting, and I'm not even sure I'd propose tighter gun controls in general. I just think if we could take away this "need for protection", that we could in turn reduce the number of guns in people's homes...guns which can be stolen and then used to commit murder. And, hence, it would have a snowball effect. Fewer guns in homes = fewer guns which can be stolen from homes = fewer guns on the street used for crime = less need for citizens to own guns for protection = even fewer guns in homes ... and so on.

And the old "If you outlaw guns, then only outlaws will have guns" doesn't work, because that logic justifies the legalization of illicit drugs, child pornography, assault, murder, rape, and anything else currently illegal. "If you outlaw child porn, then only outlaws will have child porn." Well, yes. Is the solution to legalize it?

NRA motto:
The Right Of The People To Keep And Bear Arms Shall Not Be Infringed.

I agree essentially. But...
The Need Of The People To Keep And Bear Arms Should Be Reduced.

[nybergh]

Do u disagree on this:
Without weapons in every damn suburban house there would be less shootings of these types.
1. It's a dark November evening. The father of the midle-class family has taken a few Buds or whatever and suddendly hears something strange in the garden. He takes his .32 and shoots out in the dark.
One second later he realizes his 15 year old son was going to be on a party this evening and was supposed to come home this very minute.

2. A 7 year old gets pissed off on his best friend when he says his daddy's SUV is newer, bigger and better "than any car your dad's ever going to have". He's so fucking pissed off that he gets his mommys .32 and blasts the brain out of his best friend.

It's absurd that a country with no social safety (a very big percentage of the loonies will never get any threatment, simply becouse they ain't got no money) to keep sick amounts of LEGAL guns around everywhere so that anyone who possibly would want one would get one without even a chance to think twice.

I'm quite sure that without this tradition of guns and social insecurity there wouldn't even be such a big "need" for The Death Penalty.

(You've got to exuse those lightly overdone "Stephen Kingesque" examples of mine, but that was what came in my mind first)

[sgtfuzzbubble011]

And the old "If you outlaw guns, then only outlaws will have guns" doesn't work, because that logic justifies the legalization of illicit drugs, child pornography, assault, murder, rape, and anything else currently illegal. "If you outlaw child porn, then only outlaws will have child porn." Well, yes. Is the solution to legalize it?

Are you smoking some of those illicit drugs right now?

Those things are illegal right now for good reason. What makes you think that the right to own a gun makes it ok to do drugs, look at child porn, murder, or rape someone? Just because I have a gun doesn't mean I'm going to go kill someone with it. You're trying to compare apples and oranges.

[sgtfuzzbubble011]

1. It's a dark November evening. The father of the midle-class family has taken a few Buds or whatever and suddendly hears something strange in the garden. He takes his .32 and shoots out in the dark. One second later he realizes his 15 year old son was going to be on a party this evening and was supposed to come home this very minute.

Time to outlaw alcohol now, huh?

2. A 7 year old gets pissed off on his best friend when he says his daddy's SUV is newer, bigger and better "than any car your dad's ever going to have". He's so fucking pissed off that he gets his mommys .32 and blasts the brain out of his best friend.

Oh. I guess it's time to outlaw SUVs, too.

[nybergh]

1. No. Still it's more difficult to kill someone with an aluminium beer can than with a .32-pistol I think.

2. Yes/No.
(they use more gas than most normal cars (sedans/station wagons), bad for the enviroment. too bad the Bush admin decided that big four wheeled vehicles are the safest way to travel on land" => lower taxes for suvs. Likewhise every fasion knowing midleclassfamily needs one. No matter if daddy's newer driven one before and kills the whole family by turning the SUV around in a sharp curve, 'cos he thought those SUV's with electronic driving aids can be driven just like a low, sporty sedan)

But you didn't answer my qestion. Would regulations prevent quite many accidents?

[nybergh]

I agree with the concept that a free country should allow its citizens to own guns. But consider a different perspective: reduce or eliminate the need for people to own guns. Military and law enforcement would of course still need guns. Target shooters, competition marksmen and collectors could get special permits to own guns for their hobby/sport. But it is indeed sad that people feel the need to own guns to protect themselves. Take away the cause of the fear that makes people feel this way, and you take away their need for guns. Easier said than done, crime prevention is. But it's the only effective treatment for the problem at hand.

This is how it works in most European countries. You can feel quite safe.

[ScorLibran]

There are so many other ways to protect yourself and your family that owning a gun is essentially "giving up".

-1- If you live in an area with more than a marginal crime rate, move to a safer place. The vast majority of the time, it doesn't have to cost any more than where you live now, but it does take research to find a better place, and some "rearranging of your life" to accommodate a move. But to protect my family and avoid killing someone in the process, I would do anything.

-2- Lock your doors. Obvious, sure, but many break-ins occur through unlocked doors. If everyone kept their doors locked all the time, home or away, break-ins could be measurably reduced.

-3- Equip your home with a security system, even a very cheap one will do. Many people say these are not effective, and of course there are ways around any system. But if a potential criminal sees that you have any kind of active security system, he would likely pass your home by for "easier pickings". This works on the not-so-ideal principle that many other people do not have a security system, and represent the "easier pickings", but it's just the way it is. I'd rather use this fact to protect my family than give up and buy a gun.

-4- Use common sense. This basically covers anything else you can do to minimize your chances of being a victim of a violent crime, and in turn having to "defend yourself" with a gun. For every violent crime involving a gun, look at the situation and determine if there was a way to prevent what happened without having to shoot the perpetrator. The majority of the time there is a safe alternative that would not involve the use of a gun to protect oneself.

And finally, too many things can go wrong owning a gun. It can be stolen before you can get to it, it can be forcibly taken away from you before you can use it, a young child can find it and be seriously hurt, a teenager can "show it to their friends" and shoot someone in the course of "messing around" with it, a previously law-abiding person can simply get angry enough to use their gun to kill someone, it can "go off" when cleaning it (since some people are dumb enough to clean a loaded weapon), and shooting at someone in your home to "defend it" can result in hurting or killing someone you care about.

The chances that someone will be hurt by a gun you keep in your home far exceed the chances that you'll ever use the gun to protect your family. How often do you hear about a tragedy involving a legally owned gun? Far too often. How often do you hear about a perpetrator getting shot by a homeowner protecting his family? Hardly ever.

It's not worth the risk, especially considering the alternatives.

[nybergh]

@ScorLibran
I agree with U.
Wonder if those NRA-guys think we're threathing the democracy?

[zootm]

i don't believe it's hugely important for a populace to own guns. the government point is one that shouldn't, really, be relevant in a first-world country in this day and age. gun lobbyists take great pleasure in pointing out that hitler banned guns when he came to power. this does not, however, prove anything.

guns were cheap, widespread and unrestricted in iraq. many/most households had an AK-style weapon in them. governments don't need to ban guns to oppress their people - this is a false statement. the percieved need for guns shows either a deep distrust in the government (which, when both major parties are basically the same on most major issues, seems unlikely), or a clinging to tradition by reasons that were valid at the time.

i don't think guns should be banned in america, though. well, more specifically, i don't think guns could be banned in america. a little regulation would be good, though. and if they tried to overly-legalise guns in this country, i would oppose it.

[will]

Further to what zootm was saying, licenced guns arn't the problem in the UK, the only problem is illegal guns owned by gangs here, but this problem is restricted to a few inner cities.

[ertmann|CPH]

are western europe opresssed? i don't think so! can anyone in europe go buy a gun? no!

the argument that the american gun policy ensures freedom, is nothing but rediculus, and people who seriously believe in that, need some more brain cells....

the only thing the american gun policy brings is more gun killings....

[Widdykats]

Originally posted by d0rk
Being an american I feel the same way Hugh.

AMEN!!!

[xzxzzx]

I'd have a very hard time arguing that having a gun doesn't increase the chances of using a gun. Furthermore, there will always be idiots who have guns and use them irrisponcibly.

the government point is one that shouldn't, really, be relevant in a first-world country in this day and age.

Why? Tell me why.

It is not gun ownership which causes a murder - it only facilitates it. Indeed, (I have not done a whole lot of research here) Canada has a huge number of guns in homes, and yet, the murder rate is low. Why?

Gun problems are a symptom of a much larger, more fundamental problem. As it is in today's society, we always want the 'quick fix'. People are killing each other with guns? Get rid of the guns! Irrisponsible parents let their children play video games? Ban the games!

Ugh. This topic has been overplayed in my book. Discussed, argued, debated, and every other synonym you can think of...

[Kinetik*]

If guns are made illegal, only criminals will have guns.

Think about that.


Alcohol, gluttony, and greed are what will bring this country down. Not guns.

[Namelessv1]

I think stiffer regulations would reduce many of the accidental shootings, but I don't guns are essentially the problem in terms of homicide. They are only a method for killing. If there weren't guns, then it'd be some other murder weapon.

The real problem is the murder and violence itself. It'll take more than just a few laws that ban this or that that will resolve this problem.

[Smeggle]

Collect all Guns together- ALL OF THEM! Melt down in a big big BIG melting pot and make some thing usefull --say like a space ship- Let me drive it (Only a one seater mind-it'll go faster that way) Then I can get of this stupid planet--then you canall start making guns again--


OK stupid idea I know---But...........


















Then so are Guns---

[hammerhead]

Guns are totally pointless.

What would you prefer? Some 'freedom' and bullets whizzing by all the time, and being able to contribute to them? Or safety from these bullets and not being able to fire them?

I know I'm exaggerating, but still..

[marvinbarcelona]

I do agree that guns in themselves do not kill people, it is the people behind them that pull the trigger. However, if the gun is removed from the hand then a severe beating is pretty much all that can be administered.

As most people in the world, I find the US both strange and faciniating at the same time. Why is the wealthiest, most advanced and strongest country in history, populated by people who [i[seem[/i] to exist in mortal dread of their fellow citizens? Fear, seems to prevail in the US to a degree that isn't found anywhere else in the world, why?

The US seems to believe that freedom can only be secured by the use of force or the threat of force. Do you believe that as soon as guns are outlawed that the federal goverment will instantly become totalitarain? Where does this belief come from? If the US goverment decided to become totalitarain, what makes you think you can stop it with your gun? They have the mightest military in history on their side.

The US seems to be like a person suffering from a multiple personality disorder; its population is very religious or religious leaning, yet it consumes and produces vast amounts of pornography, its people belive in the right ot freedom, yet allow its goverment to subvert that freedom in other countries and its people believe in freedom of speach, yet the 'outsider', the one who thinks differently, is looked on with fear and suspicion.

Like I said at the begining; the world is fascinated with the US, yet is very wary of it.

[Bilbo Baggins]

For every American with a gun, there are 5 terrorists with guns...

[ElChevelle]

Damn straight!

[godoncrack]

Something to think about...


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In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.


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In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.


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Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.


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China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.


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Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.


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Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.


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Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million 'educated' people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.


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Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million.


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It has now been 12 months since gun owners in Australia were forced by new law to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be destroyed by their own government, a program costing Australia taxpayers more than $500 million dollars.

The first year results are now in:
Australia-wide, homicides are up 3.2 percent
Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6 percent
Australia-wide, armed robberies are up 44 percent (yes, 44 percent!)
In the state of Victoria alone, homicides with firearms are now up 300 percent.
(Note that while the law-abiding citizens turned them in, the criminals did not, and criminals still possess their guns!)

While figures over the previous 25 years showed a steady decrease in armed robbery with firearms, this has changed drastically upward in the past 12 months,since the criminals now are guaranteed that their prey is unarmed.

There has also been a dramatic increase in break-ins and assaults of the ELDERLY.
Australian politicians are at a loss to explain how public safety has decreased, after such monumental effort and expense was expended in "successfully ridding Australian society of guns."
---------------------------------------------------------------------
www.garyrose.com for additional reading

this link, links to links which may have porn
but so does yahoo.com

[zootm]

Originally posted by xzxzzx
Why? Tell me why.

because there's too many people defending democracy to allow it to be overruled. because people are well-informed enough not to allow oppression to happen. and because in a first-world country, people should be educated enough not to allow this shit to happen. are the people actually ever going to allow such an oppressive head-of-state (and government) be elected? are a well-informed, moral army ever going to follow their orders?

and godoncrack, not a single first-world country amongst the big examples, and the australian example doesn't really prove anything now does it? a rise in organised crime would cause the same effect, for example.

[godoncrack]

Correct sootm.
French Revolution, citizens had guns.
American Revolution, citizens had guns.
American Civil War, citizens had guns.
Russia, Chechyn rebels fighting for a new order, have guns.
My history as far as the UK is a bit rusty, but since you're there...
How many serious civil uprisings have there been on the other side of the pond?
There have been many empires in the history of man.
It is very arrogant of ANYONE to assume that we are different from our ancestors because we have fancy toys and better ways to kill one another.
People will always be people.
Some will always seek power, at any cost.
America will be free only as long as her people have teeth.
When the next major conflict comes around,
I mean the REALLY BIG ONE
And the shit hits the fan
And it will(note that the two BIG conflicts of the last century were not started by us, but were finished by us.)
Guns won't seem so bad.

[zootm]

did i say it was a bad thing for armed forces to have guns? is any of that even relevant to the point i was making (except for - of course - "correct sootm" )? am i even arguing against guns?

as for civil uprisings in the UK, i'm not greatly up on history, but i suspect there has been none in the time of guns.

also, none of your examples (except for the chechnya one) are in "this day and age", and i'm not convinced that chechnya counts as "the first world".

[godoncrack]

Its in Russia.
........
Its 1.5
and guns have been around for seven hundred years
go ask a neighbor or something
Armed forces having guns???
where did you get that?
I never mentioned armed forces
only CITIZENS
i take it you've never been in the military
you can be made to believe anything
even that your parents are the enemy and its your job to exterminate them.
please define "this day and age"
how is it different from 50 years ago?
100?

[godoncrack]

Something to think about...


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Number of gun owners in the U.S.: 80,000,000


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Number of accidental gun deaths per year (all age groups): 1,500


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Accidental deaths per gun owner: 0.0000188


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Number of physicians in the U.S.: 700,000


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Number of accidental deaths caused by physicians per year (all age groups): 120,000


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Accidental deaths per physician: 0.171 (U.S. Dept. of Health & Human Services)


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Statistically, Doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners.


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FACT: Not everyone has a gun, but everyone has at least one doctor. Please alert your friends to this alarming threat. We must ban doctors before this gets out of hand. (As a public health measure, statistics on lawyers were withheld for fear that the shock could cause people to seek medical aid.)


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more from us pro-gun nuts

[Timzone8]

Personally people owning guns for reasons such as self defense is just a 'piss poor' excuse to have one. Guns should only be used for killing rabits and foxes, then using those dead animals for eating or bait for fishing. Using a gun for self defense is just a bitchy way of saying "hey, back off! i've gotta gun!" wtf and then someone will go and make a bigger and better one etc etc until you have weapons of mass distruction "or do they " going back to fighting a war with axes and bows and arrows would be hella funny, instead of an old granny or an uptight fk shooting everyone that looks at em crosseyed... NRA4EVA <-- Like hell...

[Fickle]

Originally posted by Smeggle
Collect all Guns together- ALL OF THEM! Melt down in a big big BIG melting pot and make some thing usefull --say like a space ship- Let me drive it (Only a one seater mind-it'll go faster that way) Then I can get of this stupid planet--then you canall start making guns again--OK stupid idea I know---But...........
Then so are Guns---

I hunt. How am I supposed to hunt with a spaceship.

And to all those that think I, as a gun toter, am going to blast away my neighbor, use your head. The people who shoot people are irresponsible and have no training. Thier parents are the type of people who leave things lying out like pistols and whatnot when they were younger. Keep your guns in a safe.

And also, before someone attacks my hunting: I hunt pheasant, which tastes quite good and many people will pay top dollar for. It tastes good, and I am able to go out and have a good time without having to shoot people on my computer, TV, watch it in the news, etc.

The problem is not the guns themselves, but the lack of responsibility in the nation reguarding guns and other things like knives, firecrackers, etc. I was taught by my step-father to respect our rifles and guns, and not to be irresponsible with them.
It's lack of responsiblity and self-respect and reasoning behind the United States Crime rate.

Oh, and I am a member of the NRA, and Bowling for Columbine was a crock of left-wing propaganda bullshit. Yes, I've seen it, and the fact that they compare the NRA with the KKK is horrible. But we've been over this shit movie before, lots of idiocincarcies and bullshitisms run rampant throughout.

So, In conclusions, you want to take away my gun (You call it a weapon, I call it a tool) you also take away my right to unwind by shooting clay birds and small mammals that you may hit with your car now and then (squirells, birds), you take away many, many, many American jobs. So, yeah, it's true. You'll take it out of my cold, dead hand.

[Smeggle]

For every American with a gun, there are 5 terrorists with guns...

First I LMFAO Then I re-read it

there are 5 terrorists with guns...

AH! I get the grand plan now....Suicide by Proxy...after all you can bet most are using American Weapons....No sorry they use uzi's- supplied by the Isreali's (Friends of America?) oh yes and Good old Anitov Kalishkanov - Whose firing action was 'Ripped off' from the F.N.Rifle, (Also adapted by the British Army, (with double action firing pin adaption cause the bloody thing kept blowing up with the single action pin(Fixed Pin) ),
-F.N.Rifle Also known as the S.L.R. (British Army, now they just have this thing made in plastic, that falls apart when you drop it or did they sort that bit out :whistles

Anyway I diverse (as usual ) Gun's are made for one reasons TO KILL! Period! (Do you know I do like that uephynism- so final )

So before you pick a gun up just ask your self this question

Would I be bothered if I pulled the trigger and some one did lose their life?
1.If the answer is no- Then don't pick up the gun - because your own life will be finished if you do my friend.

2. If the answer is yes - then you certainly don't want to pick up that gun - Because even if it was a case of self defence - you will have lost that part you treasure most - the ability to understand and forgive- hard thing to lose....

BTW I gave up two- three weeks before I finished an 12mnth course in Deep Reconizance and Sniping Techniques - Reason?

I knew I would not have a problem in pulling the trigger ...Part of me just couldn't live with that some how....I'm glad because after a few years I understood why....

Lifes just to precious for all this killing and crap..Prefer a good party with some nice folk around and food and music, singing dancing

sad lives some folk lead I reckon.....

[Fickle]

I love it when people post random cliche's and never read the arguments against thier own beliefs.