More US casualties

[marvinbarcelona]

It's sad when anyone dies. But over the weekend, US forces attacked a house in Afghanistan and killed 9 children who were inside. The man they were after had apparently left the area a week ago. It's a pity they didn't just send troops in to find him instead of bombing 9 children.

How many more Afghanistanis will now take up arms?

[djmastermind]

First of all, I'd like you thank everyone for their replies and condolences. You all have really regenerated my faith is what I thought was a declining American society. It's really great to here that there are others out there that think things over instead of blindly following was the government says.

Originally posted by marvinbarcelona
It's sad when anyone dies. But over the weekend, US forces attacked a house in Afghanistan and killed 9 children who were inside. The man they were after had apparently left the area a week ago. It's a pity they didn't just send troops in to find him instead of bombing 9 children.

How many more Afghanistanis will now take up arms?

That I did not know of. Is there a newspaper article or online article about this tragedy? If so, I would like to show this to those people that I know that are all for the war because 'we need to get that fucker'.

I'm incredibly late for school. Thanks again, you all. You've been really great, with the exception of a few.

[marvinbarcelona]

House bombed, 9 children killed

[djmastermind]

Thanks a lot, marvin.

[JackalFace]

I'm sorry to hear about that Baz. I've known several people who have been in a war, and they know that it isn't just a game. You can't just get things done, in-out, like they make it out to be.

On the subject of the 9 children killed, it's horrifying to think that in this sort of thing (as mentioned, not a game), war, we couldn't do enough surveillence or research to know that the place held within it civilians and that our guy was long gone. Seriously.

[marvinbarcelona]

This is what happens in war. All those who bang the war-war drum always forget that those dieing, on both sides, are human beings whose potential has just be cut short.

Of those that have died in Afghanistan or Iraq, again on both sides, was there an Einstein amoungest them? Was there a Van Gogh? Possibly, but there were people who just wanted to see their families again and grow old.

"War! What is it good for?"

[djmastermind]

Those that are still pro-war, as you said, definitely neglect to remember that people are dying because of this completely idiotic guerilla that is taking place.

Esepcially with the holidays coming up soon, I want to see no more deaths.

[Bazman63]

Hi Jackel and Laz. et al. I see the common sense is still prevailing in the thread. Marvelous. Dialogue first, dialogue second, dialogue last. No excuses.
DJ how's your teacher doing? Did you show her the thread?


(Thanks for the kind words.
It was the Falklands and the 1st Gulf)

[JackalFace]

(Man, Baz just seems too nice ) It'd be nice if they paused the war for holidays and had some chai on both sides.

[djmastermind]

She's doing alright.. She seemed a little better today, but still dazed. Still took some crying breaks in her office, as should be expected. I think she is still too sensitive to the subject to show her the thread just quite yet. I am planning on getting her a gift.. flowers and/or card.

Baz.. I would also like to thank you for your kind words. You are one of the most selfless persons that I have met and I really appreciate your posts made here. Along with everyone else. Thanks again.

[Bazman63]

No probs. It's a Buddhist thang.

[djmastermind]

I've been curious about Buddhism, but I haven't done much research. It sounds like a really great religion.

[laz]

I have to agree with DJMaster on that topic as well.
I didnt know there were many buddhists on this forum, well I should have expected it.

[djmastermind]

Just something about them seems so... calm. There's mormons, but they're more than a little scary. Something about smiling all the time makes me wonder.

To each his own, though.

[Bazman63]

nice suits though.

Nam Myoho Renge Kyo.

http://www.sgi-usa.org/
Contact the chapter in your area.

http://www.gakkaionline.net/ One of the most informative sites in the world.

Quote:
"Buddhism is reason. It does not exist apart from society or apart from reality. That is why it is important for each of us to cultivate good judgement and commonsense. We must respect and harmonize with society's ways. Respecting the life of each individual, we can work among the people. This the SGI's fundamental creed."
Daisaku Ikeda, President, Soka Gakkai International.

[djmastermind]

Thanks for the information!

[JackalFace]

My Law and Justice teacher is Buddhist. Amiable, funny, and one of the best teacher's I've had. Great guy, so it has to say something about the religion.

[ashasha3]

First of all, my condolences; death is never anything to take lightly under any circumstances and it is always tragic.

As for some of the views here about whether or not it is because we have no business being in Iraq or whose fault it is, well there are a lot of ways to look at it. I am active duty military and my little brother is over there on a 1 year tour (3 months left!). I have a ton of friends that are over there and if I wouldn't have been forced to move a year ago I could tell you all about it first hand. My new job doesn't have a downrange mission so I am out of the action. I am not comlaining at all, I would go willingly, but I am no hero-boy.

I really liked the car accident analogy. Sure those people weren't "forced to go downrange", but everyday there is a risk that we won't be coming home. Life is fragile. Those people that die everyday in car accidents are no less tragic. But I think that the numbers quantify the actual loss that we have experienced in a process that is generally very dangerous. The fact that more people die on the highways going to work or the movies or a park than those that are shooting and being shot at shows just how measured our actions are and the quality of training and level of professionalim is in the military.

I think that the point that we have to remember here is that the people that are over there fighting terrorism and trying to liberate Iraq were not grabbed up off the docks or forced into going. Every one of us know that when we take the oath and agree to receive a paycheck that we could end up paying the ultimate price. You are only kidding yourself if you take that oath and don't realize that it is for real and not a game. We get paid enough to keep us above poverty level in most cases and I love the benefits I receive. I never complain about getting paid a lot less doing what I do in the military than I would in the civilian world. I have had several job offers making a lot more (I am not bragging here, just making a point) and turned them down. I chose to re-enlist (again) because I like to think that what I do makes a difference and that my brothers and sisters in arms deserve to have me doing my job with them. It is kind of a fraternity and the camaraderie is what keeps me in. I don't want to die. I have a great family and want to see my son grow up, but I also have a commitment to my country to do what my Commander in Chief feels is necessary to protect our country. I took an oath and I intend to honor it. I am sure that your friend felt the same way. He obviously was a good person since he took the challenge to protect his country and defend our way of life. There aren’t as many people that would be willing to do that as you would think. His death is tragic, but he knew that his task was dangerous. Trust me on this, we are all made well aware that we aren't here for the free college.

As for whether or not we belong in Iraq, well there are so many scenarios and circumstances that led to the point that we could argue until we are blue in the face. There is no right answer. Period. After 9/11 we realized that our country is not above attack. At least not against a cowardly attack on civilians. We had intelligence that there were terrorist cells in Iraq and we knew that Sadaam had no love for us. He had money and weapons. That is about all that is needed to supply a large terrorist outfit. I mean how many weapons caches do we have to uncover to realize that they were very well armed? Sadaam had $750,000 US on his person when they dug him out of the hole. All that he would need is some people to train and the Middle East and south west Asia has more than enough who are willing to learn how to become terrorists. So are we supposed to sit here and wait, knowing that he has the people and the means to surmount an incredibly deadly army of murderers? If we had suicide bombers on buses like they do everyday in Israel, would you be saying that we made the right decision to leave Sadaam in power and just mind our own business? How many 9/11's do we need to realize that there are people out there that do not like us or our way of life? And I seriously doubt that in a few years after Iraq is stabilized that any of them (except for the extremely powerful of the Sadam regime) would vote to have Sadaam reinstated as the Dictator.

I doubt that anyone here would defend our Gov'ts decision to not send friends and family over there to fight the battle at the source rather than in our own streets here. As popular as it is to second guess and complain about our gov'ts decisions the fact of the matter is we are all doing the best that we can to make sure that after today you still have the right to complain and second guess. That is your right and that is why we go willingly to make sure that you keep have that right tomorrow. If you don't feel the same then I don't recommend that you join the military (it isn't for everyone). That is another right that you have, freedom of choice. Your friend had the same choice and he decided that he would make sure that others have that right. People like your friend are the reasons that I have decided to re-enlist several times.

I love my country and anything that is worth loving is worth fighting for. We aren't fighting for George W. Bush or Donald Rumsfeld, we are fighting to protect our families and friends and even people that we don't know personally. We are fighting to defend the principles that this country was founded on and has flourished under. It isn't perfect, but it is the best thing going. There was a threat to that and rather than wait for it to grow to the point that we couldn't stop it without undo loss we took a proactive measure. Trust me, if we had decided to wait it out, your children may be the ones fighting and the fight would have been here. It's kind of like cancer. The sooner that you treat it the better the results and less likely that it will spread.

It is a shame that anyone has to die in this situation, American or Iraqi, but the cost of freedom is not cheap. But at the end of the day, ultimatley the price is worth the reward.

Once again, sorry for your loss.

[Bazman63]

Well, now. That was very well put.

Your new, non-downrange job wouldn't invovle trawling the internet looking for threads that may be considered to be harmful to the moral decency of youth of America, so you can cut and past Mom and applepie replys to refute the very thought that the war may be illegal and imoral, would it, by any chance?

[marvinbarcelona]

And what freedom was being put under threat?
What terrorists were you fighting?

[ashasha3]

Originally posted by Bazman63
Well, now. That was very well put.

Your new, non-downrange job wouldn't invovle trawling the internet looking for threads that may be considered to be harmful to the moral decency of youth of America, so you can cut and past Mom and applepie replys to refute the very thought that the war may be illegal and imoral, would it, by any chance?

No, I wish my job was to surf the net. My new job isn't quite that cushy. As for the applepie stuff and moral decency that is up to the individual. Disagree if you want, that is your right (though you are from England, I think you have those rights as well ). Just as it is my right to spout this sappy patriotic dribble (free of charge) to you guys here. It's how I feel and how I see things. That is part of the freedom that we are afforded. To complain and not worry about the consequences of our views and the right to support something that is not popular. The worst thing that we have to fear here is getting flamed. I'll take my chances. (But I wouldn't mind getting paid for this!)

As for the war or the terrorists that we are fighting I began to explain it in my first thread, but it was already way too long for me to read, let alone anyone else!

Who do you think is doing the majority of the attacks on the Iraqi police and the coalition forces? It isn't the Iraqis, the war was never against them either, it was against the insurgents that have been streaming in there. They are the ones who we are after. The other objective was the removal of Sadaam who, besides the attrosities that he waged upon his own people for decades; he aided or atleast tolerated the terrorists that were in his country. Not to mention the WMD that we haven't uncovered yet. People aren't as obsessed with that as in the past few months, but it is still a slight embarassment IMHO. Part of the setback is that alot of the resources that were being used to locate WMD are being diverted to aid in training the Iraqi police/military and for security and rebuilding. At this point finding WMD is not the #1 priority, settling things down so that Iraq can start running their own country is. And I really don't want to hear about how they were doing a fine job before the war. Unless you were one of the elite in Iraq (i.e., your last name was Hussein) I doubt that you enjoyed the daily lifestyle that Sadaam allowed you.

If we wanted to fight Iraq "the country" the war would have been much nastier and decisive, with a lot more civilian casualties. Believe me or not, but those terrorists that were training in Iraq weren't there to attack Jamaica, it was only a matter of time before they were in our neighborhoods. Take the fight to the source and eliminate the threat to our shores. Our purpose is to defend our country against enemies foreign and domestic. A foreign war is better than a domestic one IMHO. Also a war on terorism can't be fought reactively, by then it is too late. You have to move in before they make their move. Makes sense to me... Sadaam was not exactly upset at the idea of others going to America and performing acts of terrorism in his name or anothers. He had no reason to go after them and remove them, they indirectly served his means with little or no cost to him. After Afghanistan was cleared alot of these guys ran into Iraq from Afghanistan and other countries to train and get funded. They are still in there and aren't happy about us being there. Believe it or not the majority of the Iraqi's aren't thrilled with them being there either. This war serves both of us.

It will take some time for the success or failure of this entire campaign to be realized. I personally believe that there is no way that this can be classified as a success until Iraq has there own government up and running and are part of the international community. They have so many resources to offer in commerce and could be a very wealthy country. Not for just a few tyrants, but everyone has a chance to earn an honest living and has the right to succeed or to fail on their own merits. That isn't going to happen overnight and the next few moves that we make with the Iraqi gov't are going to be crucial. I personally think that this time right now is more critical than any time during the fighting. The only true obstacle that I see now is that it is a completely different culture. Their ideas of democracy and constitional ideals can't possibly be quite like ours. It has to be determined by them and enforced by them. You can't expect an entire country to change their way of thinking, way of life and culture overnight to what we think is "right." Hopefully we have people in those positions to "aid" them that realize this. What works for us may not work for them. I mean we have enough problems of our own. Luckily they don't include "the right execute you and your family if I don't like you." Until you see the rest of the world first hand you really can't appreciate what you have in the US.

Everyone here and there should want this to be a success. Sure it wasn't popular at first, but this could be one of those things that kids read about in history books as one of the most important times in history. It is easy to sit back and take the easy path. Defining historical moments rarely began as an easy task or even as a popular idea. We're there, like it or not and we are knee deep in it. The final outcome is probably going to determine if we can fight this war on terrorism effectively and on our terms.

Think of it as a big turd sandwich and everyone has to take a bite. Applepie enough for you?

[marvinbarcelona]

There were no terrorists raining in Iraq. You fail to understand the difference between Iraq and the Muslim extremists. Al Quada hated Saddam as he turned Iraq into a secular country not a muslim one extremist one. Bin Laden hated Saddam and wanted him dead, so Saddam had no interest in training terrorists. After all, that was one of the reasons he went to war with iran for and the reason which the US goverment at the time backed against Iran.

regarding those that are fighting the US & UK forces in Iraq. I really think you aren't seeing the bigger picture here, yes, all Iraqis are glad to see the back of Saddam, but they don't want to see foreign armies in their country either. The borders of Iraq are not being crossed daily by fighters/terrorists from other countries, the US & UK military are fighting Iraqi citizens or as they see themselves, Iraqi Patriots.

Do I want this war over? Of course I do, I right minded people do. But I will [b]not[/i] allow the US & UK goverments to get away with what they did scot free. They must be held accountable for the mess and illegality or not of this war. I really think you are deluding yourself if you think WMD are ever going to be found, the simple fact is that they are not and were not there. The US military have had eight months of total freedom to find them.....and they have failed.

The US & UK now have duty not to pull out as fast as they can. They must now stay there for the duration, long enough to ensure that Iraq is a stable country and not walk away like they have done in Afghanistan. Iraq will need decades of support.

[ashasha3]

I do believe that Iraq was a breeding ground for terrorists. If not, then where have all of these attacks by non-Iraqi people come from? They didn't just appear after the war, some came in to practice their own version of Jihad, but as you said Al-Qaida and Sadaam had no love for eachother. Why start fighting in defense of Sadaam or Iraq now? Because they realize that a geographically important area for them is about to be lost. If it wasn't important before the war then why would they need it now?
And I didn't say that Sadaam and Bin Laden were in this together. There are different flavors of terrorism. Most of it originates from Muslim extremists (atleast they get the most press), but think about this. If we have cells operating in our own borders of Engalnd, the US, Germany, Italy, France, think about how many could operate in a country or region that hates us to begin with, and in a coutry with such porous borders? As I said, Hussien had no reason to stand in the way of a an enemy who is fighting a much bigger common enemy. I don't find it hard to imagine at all.

I realize the importance of patriotism and the problems that many may have with a foreign presence, but I also feel that many realize that it is temporary. If they don't that is because they are misinformed (much like the rest of that region) or just unwilling to change. Who remembers the minister of information telling Iraqi citizens that they were kicking our butts? That is the kind of trustworthy news that they have been fed for years. A few press conferences isn't going to convince everyone after decades of lies and being taught to hate westerners. But anyone of them fighting against the coalition is hindering their own progress and the sooner that they realize it the sooner that they can start rebuilding. It is frustrating knowing that not everyone wants to support this. It is a shame. Sure it served a purpose for us, but it is an opportunity for them as well.

And I do agree 100% that we cannot just pull out or we what we have will make Afghanistan look like a summer resort. That is why there has to be international support and that won't happen as long as there are terrorist attacks on those trying to help. 99% of the countries that would be interested in going in there aren't interested in fighting so they will wait until it is settled down. I don't see anything settling down as long as there is a strong US presense and no Iraqi gov't. Those are the two things that should be on the top of the list and capturing Sadaam was a good starting point. Now the realization that they CAN make a change and not suffer his wrath is apparent. Imagine if we did pull out and he came back to power. Anyone who had supported us would be dead and they know it. I think that with him out of the way they can start to move forward without fear.

Decades of support is dead right. Get used to Iraq as being a very personal topic for the rest of our lives. Bush and many others have said that this isn't going to be quick. Anyone who thinks that this was going to be over after the major fighting stopped is a product of the McDonalds generation. That is another area that they aren't sold on. The ability of westerners to stick with something. We want it and we want it now. "OK, I'm bored now, I quit." These people have no TV's, internet, video games, no distractions. In many cases they have their religion and their disdain and their willingness to die for it. That may make a good movie, but in the real world, a global world, that mindset just won't work. You can't just kill someone if you don't agree with their views. We have to prove that we are there for the long haul and not just to get what we wanted and leave. Tehn they may learn to respect us.

WMD is a subject that I am not really strong on. I am not over there digging through bunkers to find this stuff so I don't know. I didn't see the intelligence personally. I am positive that he has chemicals somewhere, he has used it in the past and the way that he is, defiant there is no way that he destroyed it all. It is also very easy to manufacture and hide. Finding anything is going to be very difficult, it isn't going to lying around. And they haven't had 8 months of unfettered access to everywhere to search as you said. Everyday has been a struggle and there is so much area that hasn't been searched that it could take years. We don't have that many troops on the ground and most of the time has been spent on training, raids and just overall security. For all we know they could be camping right over top of it and we would never know. They may never find anything. Who knows? It all depends on who they can get to talk if you ask me, because I just don't see someone stumbling on the Fort Knox of WMD while putting up a tent or digging a latrine.

One thing that I wasn't sure whether or not I should post has to do with past policies. We haven't been squeaky clean in the past and everyone knows it, a lot of the issues there are directly caused by us and puppeteering. It's sad and it may not be right, but it happened. One thing that you have to remember though, whether you want to or not, your gov't is there to promote your country's interests. Sometimes that means to take advantage of others. It isn't new and it is part of human nature. You also have to remember that back in the day Iran and Iraq weren't the big fear, it was the US and Russia going to nuclear war. At the time I imagine that letting Iraq fight a war with our best interests was better than sending our own over there. Right or wrong, or even a completely inaccurate account, what's done is done. I know that if I was voting for a leader of my country I would want him to do what it takes to make sure that my country is prosperous. It's kind of a "do it, just don't tell me how you did it" type of thing. Sad, but that is the way that it is. Hopefully we can fix what we broke decades ago.

Like I said it is about now. What course of action is taken and how it is accepted is going to effect all of us.

[Fenix426]

Well Perhaps You all should know something first. I am strongly Liberal on all issues EXCEPT Abortion (Pro-life) and, borderline on gay rights. My Dicussion may become too Liberal but in any instance try to understand.

A)We trained Terrorist in Afaganistan and armed them with some of the weapons they use today
B)There are no WMD in Iraq. Many have done reports into this and Iraq had no yellow cake. Bush used this unfairly to create a 'Military Action' of killing
C)There were never any terrorist in Iraq until now. They are coming in by the buttload and killing soldiers daily.
D)In my newspaper it said '54M lost in money to Haliburton from government contracts' 54m. Jeez. You know what we could do with that?!? Easily we could funded many social programs and helped American
E) Polls show that these 'tax-cuts' to the rich will not actually stimulate the economy. The Poll show the less income you get the more likely you are to go blow that money and that increases profits, making the buisness get more employies(typo), open more locations and offer more jobs.
F)If we would have used Diplomacy and had the U.N. go in, we could have had this done ALOT easier. Foriegn support = good, go it alone = bad

Oh yes and one more thing. Ever notice how conservatives use tons of insults when trying to prove a stupid point?

[Bazman63]

No flaming. Promise. Your posts are far more readable than some of the MacDonald generation I have been reading.

I'll just ramble a bit.

The most important point to remeber is that the US/UK led war on Iraq is illegal under international law.

The very pretext for going to war was to discover and cestroy WMD. This, despite the weapons inspectors', (US and UK amongst them), at the time and still having doubts as their existance.

The lack of understanding in the psychology of diplomatic relations with an Arab strongman by the US and UK has led me to believe that the swing to gunboat diplomacy was the result of laziness and/or motivated by personal financial and/or political interests.

The poor state of the infra-structure and the sanctions in place before the invasion provided an ideal platform for continued pressure.

The no fly zones, north and south could have been extended. The military occupied zones could likewise have been increased after negotiations with the local populations. This followed by the improvement in infra-structure and easing of sanctions in those areas would have slowly strangled the Baathist regime as the rest of the Iraqi population saw the benefits of living without Saddam and under UN protection. It would have led to a peacful transition and resulted in a pro-west, secular Iraq.

The continuing deathtoll in Iraq is surely aided by foriegn elements. I have no doubt that there are many disaffected and fanatical people there, who see killing and maiming as a just cause. Not to mention the usual gangsters, blackmarketeers, arms dealers and assorted flotsam that accompany any armed conflict. But the "those guys are from outta town" explanation does not hold up to closer scrutiny. There are certainly signifigant numbers of Iraqis still prepared to carry out attacks on coalition forces and Iraqis alike. Whether their motives are patriotic or purely criminal is another matter,(I believe the criminal element will grow stronger and prove harder to deal with).

I have not heard or seen of any terrorist training facilities in Iraq. It is important to remember that Saddam and Bin Laden were far from cosy. It is possible that if nothing had been done, a situation may have arisen. But it is more likely that Saddam would view hundreds of armed Al Queda and Taliban running around his country as more of a threat than a help. A more likely scenario would see him posing as the wronged Arab leader left to the mercy of westerners by his brother Arabs. Luckily he had burned some many bridges that it would of,(as indeed, it proved to be), unlikely that he would of secured any real aid.

Afghanistan has not been cleared out. There are still thousands of coalition troops stationed there. The Hindu Kush and the Peshmerger areas both side of the Pakistan/Afghan border will never be cleared out. The only real benefit of the (welcome) removal of the Talibs as the ruling tribe has come to the drug growing warlords, who now have opium poppy production back to pre-Taliban days.

I have no problem with American patriotism, or any patriotism, except when it is hijacked by ignorant people who are too lazy to think. I can honestly say I have never met an American who I thought was a fundamentaly bad person,(I haven't been to the states), and that includes some I simply didn't like.

But it is my belief that president Bush is not intelligent enough to understand the job he is doing. His cabinet are a shifty bunch of chancers and I believe that the likes of Cheney and Rumsfield sent America to war so their financial backers could get a return on their invetsment in the governmant. They hope Bush gets re-elected because he is so easy to control.

As predicted by many, the contracts for the rebuilding of Iraq have gone to almost exclusively companies associated with the Cabinet. Haliburton has already been caught profiteering. Charging the US tax payers more for bringing oil into an oil producing country for more than agreed. Let alone using the oil available in Iraq at an even greater cost saving to the US/UK tax payers and actually doing the Iraqi economy some good in the process.
In short the whole affair stinks to high heaven of moral and financial corruption.

As an ex-solidier who saw action in both the Falklands and the 1st Gulf war I empathise with you and your comrades. Keep safe.

I am now a practising Buddhist and avowed pacifist. I know, without doubt that any conflict is avoidable through dialogue. It is why the UN must be strengthened not weakend.

BTW sorry for my last post, rather sarc'y and bitter. You replied with dignity and restraint.

[ashasha3]

Good points by all here. I am a fairly passive guy myself, believe it or not. I love to argue, but not to create problems, I just love hearing people express their thoughts. I think that many start to really think for themselves when they are a little on the defensive side. It is very easy to regurgitate info, but when asked to defend it people will tend to scrutinze it and see if it is how they really believe. They won't stake their reputation on something unless they really believe it.

This is from the tape that Ayman Al-zawahri just put out. "The speaker also denied that the resistance U.S. troops are facing in Iraq comes mainly from Saddam loyalists. He said the resistance fighters were "holy warriors."

Now that doesn't say that they are all in it together, but it does lend me to believe that they are not exactly at eachothers throats and sympathize with eachother.

The lack of understanding in the psychology of diplomatic relations with an Arab strongman by the US and UK has led me to believe that the swing to gunboat diplomacy was the result of laziness and/or motivated by personal financial and/or political interests.

I am not going to argue this at all. This is one of the best put together statements that I have seen in a long time and it is probably more than a little true. I think that I even eluded to these points a little in one of my other posts, though not quite as direct. For me to sit here and say that any military action that the US would take would not be motivated by personal gains would be a bold faced lie. Our gov't has proven time and time again that this one of our policies. Not saying that we are all greedy warmongers or anything, but our country is very uptight about putting our people into harms way. There had better be a good reason if we are going to step into it. I don't think that it was as much laziness as it was just a last resort type of thing. Trying to deal with 2 such different cultures and not getting anywhere, especially when we were the ones who started the problems...I think that it just got really old and we made our move. You also have to remember that our leaders are only in there for 4 years. That isn't a lot of time to be diplomatic. If you don't get something done the next guy steps in with different policies. I think that sets us back a few years after each election. I also think that a lot of the Arab countries see us as "soft." We have practiced very strong humanitarian rights and have always been willing to use diplomacy over military action. I don't think that people like Sadaam care about that. Sanctions and stuff do not hurt him, he has all the money that he would ever want. The Iraqi people are the ones ultimately suffering for his actions and incooperation. Why punish them with sanctions when he is the cause? So yes there may have been a little bit of frustration that led to the war, but it is understandable IMHO as to why action had to be taken over diplomacy. It has proven to be ineffective for years. This is not to say that there weren't other reasons as well to go in there, but I think that this is just another straw that added to the weight on the camel's back.

As I said before, it is going to be very important in the next few months to see how we are going to classify this war. Sure there are legality questions (I am not an expert on inernational law so I can't comment intelligently here), but in 10 years if they have a great gov't and an improved way of life people will not question the war. Not saying that the ends justify the means, but it wouldn't hurt our stance. I still believe that they are going to be a lot better off in the end and the entire planet may benefit in the end.

I think that I can speak for the majority of the US saying that we don't like the war and wish that it hadn't come to this. But we all have to do things that we don't necessarily like. In a democracy we chhose the people that make decisions like these and we have to accept the fact that we chose them. I don't disagree with the actions that have been taken, though just like anyone else I probably would have done things differently if I could have.

And your post wasn't that bad, I can handle a little heat in a discussion with a topic this big.

[zootm]

Originally posted by ashasha3
This is from the tape that Ayman Al-zawahri just put out. "The speaker also denied that the resistance U.S. troops are facing in Iraq comes mainly from Saddam loyalists. He said the resistance fighters were "holy warriors."

horribly unlikely this is true, to be fair. the secular saddam was hated by many "hardcore" muslims, particularly the shia - this was the main cause of the iran/iraq war. if religious fanatics are around there, fighting against the US - and i've no doubt that some are - they are merely there because it's an easy place to find US soldiers to attack.

not an argumentative point, just wanted to say.

[Bazman63]

@Ashasha. Nice one. I'll have to get back to you again a bit later. Xmas is catching up with me, people to see, drinks to drink etc etc.