MS forced to re-build Windows XP

[killswitch1968]

Griffin: I am aware of the uninstall COMMAND (obviously much harder than the handy-add-remove programs feature, or even windows explorer menu) but in practice I get many dependency errors, and have trouble enough tracking down what the program's names are. Where is the handy uninstall menu a la Windows XP? RPMdrake doesn't cut it.
Getting rid of the executable does seem silly, but back in the old days this was how it was done. Now however there are folders which contain their respect programs. Getting rid of these folders is also easy, as I have done with many 'locked in' windows programs. Getting rid of every associated .dll file, registry setting, and embedded system file? That's a stretch, and more or less irrelvent. I have no access to WMP9 or MSN messenger on my computer, short of downloading their install files again. Anymore "uninstalledness" would be marginal.

Phily: Linux doesn't use .exe files, but I will concede that the shortcut menu is similar to XP, and tracking down the program isn't that difficult.
However what is vendor lock-in, according to you?

mikefl: Well this thread was originally about anti-trust. As I said before, no reasonable person would suggest Microsoft is commiting extortion, not even the EU in this case. If I have time I'll dig up the law for you.

[mikeflca]

Originally posted by killswitch1968
Obviously any deceitful or fraudulent actions Microsoft does is subject to legal scrutiny, which I wholly support. If they've done something outside the bounds of the law, then they should be prosecuted. As Enron and WorldCom have shown, illegal activity is a surefire way of destroying your company.

Interesting........


edit: Under that (very narrow[and outdated])(unfortunately legal)definition of extortion you posted, you are probably correct. However, I believe that there are certainly moral grounds for punishment for both anti-trust and extortion, regardless of what the law says. As you noted before, the law is not always correct.

[fwgx]

Originally posted by killswitch1968
Phily: Linux doesn't use .exe files, but I will concede that the shortcut menu is similar to XP, and tracking down the program isn't that difficult.
However what is vendor lock-in, according to you?

I never said it did, I said "exe". And linux can have .exe files if you rename your files - one of the great things about linux.

I don't know where the shortcut menu came from. To find the exe you just have to type "type command-name" and it'll tell you exactly where it is. Or, if you know know what letter is starts with, type it into a command line and hit tab, you'll find it.

Getting rid of every associated .dll file, registry setting, and embedded system file? That's a stretch

Yes it is. And if you did it for WMP9 your computer would likly not boot. That's the whole point of dll's, it's code reuse which is generally a good thing. If they didn't exist you'd be complaining how much space programs needed because everything that required, say, the Qt graphics libraries would have to install them for itself.

short of downloading their install files again. Anymore "uninstalledness" would be marginal.

If this is the case, you've ony saved a couple of meg anyway. In linux you might have well just typed "chmod 600 /path/to/file-name" and given yourself the option of running it easily at some later date.

Vendor-lockin might not have been the right phrase, "obvious anti-competetive behaviour" might have been better.

[whiteflip]

and you cant rename your files in windows?

[fwgx]

Not and execute them no. At least I don't think you can execute anything but .exe files.

[zootm]

you can execute various kinds of files, most execute in different ways, however.

i wouldn't count that as a very good feature of *nix operating systems, though. it's a fairly moot point.

[killswitch1968]

Originally posted by Phily Baby
Not and execute them no. At least I don't think you can execute anything but .exe files.

You can't change the name of a file, just the stuff before it (in most cases) and it'll still work. I think that's what he was referring to.
As for "anti competetive behavior" what if Microsoft bundled WMP9 and included it in the add-remove section like they do messenger, would that be adequate?

[griffinn]

Originally posted by killswitch1968
Where is the handy uninstall menu a la Windows XP? RPMdrake doesn't cut it.

Meh, so you've been using Mandrake, disliked the package management in that one distro, and you're dismissing Linux in one fell swoop.

Every distro has its own philosophy about package management:

• If you like the Windows paradigm (having an "Add/Remove Program" thing sitting inside a "Control Panel" thing), Redhat might be more suitable for you.
• If you're a roll-your-own guy and want absolute control over what gets built in your system, try Gentoo.
• If you like hedging your bet and trying out different approaches at package management, Debian has several choices ranging from command line (dpkg/apt-get) to console-based menu (dselect/aptitude) to GUI point-and-click (synaptic).

The point is, with Linux (the gazillions of distros out there, not just Mandrake) you have a wide range of choice as to how much control you have over what's installed. With Windows, there's just that One Microsoft Way (pardon the pun).

You keep stressing "easy" and "handy". Yes, point-and-click uninstall may be "easy" and "handy", for some people. If you like this paradigm and you can live with the trade-offs, stick with Windows by all means. But it's absurd to conclude that it's harder do an uninstall in all Linux distros than in Windows based on your experience with Mandrake because (1) Mandrake is not the only Linux distro (2) your notion of "easy" is not the same as everybody's.

[killswitch1968]

Originally posted by griffinn
You keep stressing "easy" and "handy". Yes, point-and-click uninstall may be "easy" and "handy", for some people. If you like this paradigm and you can live with the trade-offs, stick with Windows by all means. But it's absurd to conclude that it's harder do an uninstall in all Linux distros than in Windows based on your experience with Mandrake because (1) Mandrake is not the only Linux distro (2) your notion of "easy" is not the same as everybody's.

Mandrake is the de facto user-friendly Linux distro out there. Are there other distros that have a simpler uninstaller or OVERALL easier interface? If not, we can agree that Mandrake is meant for brain-dead desktop users. The question is whether they are fulfilling this.

Then you assert I'm making some absolute statement. I'm not. MOST XP users like GUI menus and buttons that say "uninstall". Similarly, MOST XP users rarely, if at all, use the command line for anything. These are the people Mandrake has to convert, and they can't do it so long as users need to use the command line for basic tasks.
I'm sure SOME people like the command line just fine, but for neophytes they'll stick to intuitive icons and menus.
In short: I believe Mandrake is the most user friendly Linux distro, and by and large is less user friendly than Windows. By all means prove me wrong. Although I'll tell you my experience with RedHat was even worse.
Most people would like to be able to uninstall windows bundled programs easier, that much is true. But this piddly annoyance pales compared to the headaches that would result when trying to configure a Linux box. In such a case people stick with Microsoft.

[mikeflca]

This thread is getting so off-topic that it is funny. However, simply if you want to know, I have windows on one HD and Mandrake 9.2 on the other and it is pretty cool......with stuff like the "configure your computer" things they have really helped it....and programs like openoffice that work just as well (or better, someimes) than MS Office are getting good...however, I have not yet seen Mandrake 10; I heard it is out......

As for Microsoft........they got what they deserved.(grammar nazis please don't kill me )

[whiteflip]

an uninstall would be very useful yes. this goes back to the bundeling and integration internet explorer into windows. integration wasn't needed. bundeling, ok, but fully integrated and unable to easily remove is anti competitive. actually its very competitive just unfair.

now its with their media player and real networks is fighting that fight. i really would like to have real win out so microsoft would have to make wmp removeable or optional.

[fwgx]

Originally posted by killswitch1968
Mandrake is the de facto user-friendly Linux distro out there.

Wrong. SuSE, Fedora, Lindows are all just as user friendly.

I fail to see how user-friendlyness equates to 'better' though.

what if Microsoft bundled WMP9 and included it in the add-remove section like they do messenger, would that be adequate?

No. Not unless there is an option to not install it in the first place. The point is there is not choice whether you install it or not :. is anti-competetive.

[spiderbaby1958]

Wow, this thread really has gotten off track. Allow me to take it further.

User-friendliness does relate(though it doesn't equate) to better. My experience is that Microsoft has an advantage in user friendliness BUT I'm still patiently working with Linux because I want the freedom and the choice.

Recently switched from Red Hat 9 to Debian. At this time I can't do as much with Debian as I can with Red Hat or Fedora, but I chose to go with Debian because I can learn more that way. I can afford to make that choice, cause I also have Windows, which a chimp could run. Alas, I am not a tech guy by nature. So, for the moment, to my embarrassment, most of the time I'm back to running Windows (98). But I'm learning.

I'd advise anyone who is used to running Windows to check out Linux. If you don't feel confident enough to install a dual boot or a second hard drive, check out one of the "Live CD" distros such as Knoppix or Live SuSE. But there's really no need to throw out your Windows CD.

If the OS wars have been about choice and the public's right to a viable alternative to IT as dicated by Microsoft, then it's all over, we've won. Linux is here, it's everywhere, it's here to stay, end of story. If it's about crushing Microsoft, achieving dominance... well, fuck, who cares about that? Linux and Windows are both going to be here for the foreseeable future, and we're not going to get the most benefit out of our technology if we're going to keep fighting the OS wars to the death.

[discoleo]

However getting rid of WMP9 is as easy as deleting the exe file

Well, THAT'S COMPLETE BULLSHIT.

As you probably don't know, the WMP is integrated into the OS. It is NOT the exe file that is bad, all the other files and OS functions are BAD.

A bug was reported some time ago, that permitted a midi file to execute code on Windows. That's totally absurd. It is this practice of integrating everything into OS (and using undocumented kernel functions in ALL M$ programs) that permits such disasters to occur.

IF you are running a sever, THAN SUCH UNCERTAINTIES ARE NOT PERMITTED. The same bullshit applies to IE and to every M$ program. It is NOT primarily the exe BAD, but the whole concept of integrating NON-KERNEL functions into the kernel or allowing different M$ programms to call low-level (mostly undocumented) kernel functions and hooking into very ambiguos kernel-pipes. That's why even in XP, the compatibility between various M$ programs is catastrophic as they modify unpredictably and low-level some kernel functions.

Kind regards,

discoleo.

[whiteflip]

sounds well informed. kudos and thanks. where did yer computer knowledge come from?

[mark]

can you compile games in to a linux kernel? (not sarcasm, just wondering)

[fwgx]

I would shoot you if you tried.

[whiteflip]

what if he didnt try? what if he succeeded on the first attempt?

[fwgx]

Then he tried once and succeeded

He's still dead.

[mark]

but seriously, you could make a live CD game, like knoppix 3D or something.

As long as theres no multiplayer support, its perfectly secure...