Tell me, Why on earth would I, or anyone else believe in god? - Page 2

squakMix · 6th April 2004, 20:49

Quote:

Originally posted by LollipopLustKil
Yeah, I jumped in on this converstaion to actually talk about it, but you all seem to be almost ignoring what people say and peer around the corner for another angle at the topic.

yea, I noticed at one point someone was talking about another world that souls live in, and the next post was about a totally different thing.

Nimelennar · 6th April 2004, 20:50

Quote:

Originally posted by squakMix
If it's not sarcasm:

You're saying that the only reason you DO believe in god, is because believing in something that hundreds of other people do, gives you a sense of unity and comfort. You like it BECAUSE of the fact that you DO believe in god. You wouldnt like church if you didnt believe in god.

So, you say (summed down) that the only reason you believe in god, is because you believe in god.

First, you ignored my first point. I'm getting sick and tired of people doing that.
Second, unity with other people isn't what I feel at church, it's unity within myself. Apologies if I didn't make that clear.
Third, (summed up, not down) the reason that I believe in God is that I have believed in God, and I have found my faith is justified.

squakMix · 6th April 2004, 20:53

Quote:

Originally posted by Nimelennar

the reason that I believe in God is that I have believed in God...

Btw: I'm sorry If you feel like I have insulted you, or left any part of your argument out. I'm trying hard not to be one-minded.

cyu · 6th April 2004, 21:01

Quote:

Originally posted by squakMix
yea, I noticed at one point someone was talking about another world that souls live in, and the next post was about a totally different thing.

Quote:

Originally posted by squakMix I see that when I die, I die. I dont see, though, that when I die, I go to heaven. Nothing shows me that my "Soul" lifts out of my body, and goes to a magical palace in the clouds. It just happends to be Invisible...

You are the one who started the soul question not me.

squakMix · 6th April 2004, 21:06

Quote:

Originally posted by squakMix
Why would I believe in the "metaphysical" world?

I said later that I believe in this world because I can see, taste, touch, and interact with it in every way.

cyu · 6th April 2004, 21:16

I guess you don't believe in a thing called the human spirit or essence.

LollipopLustKil · 6th April 2004, 21:17

Evanescense.

squakMix · 6th April 2004, 21:18

Quote:

Originally posted by cyu
I guess you don't believe in a thing called the human spirit or essence.

I dont believe that a soul is a "thing". It's a quality you posses, because you have a brain, and can think for yourself.

Nimelennar · 6th April 2004, 21:20

*sigh* I'll put it this way. Say you have just bought a computer, with the OS preinstalled. You plug it in and get everything hooked up. You believe that the power button will turn it on, because that's what you were told it does. After it has started up the first time, it isn't the fact that you believed the first time that it would start up by pressing the power button that keeps you pressing the power button to turn it on, it's the fact that it worked. You could say I believe the power button will turn it on because you once believed that it would work, and that would be true, but it's only a fraction of the story.

It's the same way with my faith. I believed in God. God helped me. Thus, I believe in God.

squakMix · 6th April 2004, 21:24

I think that It will turn on when I press the button, because of the fact that I know what the button does on other computers. I can also take apart the computer, and see exactly what it is that makes the computer turn on when I press the button. Also, the computer needs the help of two outside forces to turn on.
1: Me, pressing the button
2: Power, connected to the computer with a cable.

Now, if there was just a random button sitting on the street, I dont expect a volcanoe will erupt when I press it. There's no reason I would believe that.

LollipopLustKil · 6th April 2004, 21:26

I'm gonna put a button on the sidewalk, and see if anyone actually presses it.

Nimelennar · 6th April 2004, 21:48

What I was saying was that the first time you press the button, you only believe this particular button will turn the computer on. Afterwards, you have firsthand recollection that this button has turned the computer on in the past, which reinforces your belief that it will work in the future. On the other hand, if the power supply has burned out, your belief is contradicted by the fact that the power button does not, in fact, turn the computer on.

squakMix · 6th April 2004, 21:52

Quote:

Originally posted by Nimelennar
What I was saying was that the first time you press the button, you only believe this particular button will turn the computer on. Afterwards, you have firsthand recollection that this button has turned the computer on in the past, which reinforces your belief that it will work in the future. On the other hand, if the power supply has burned out, your belief is contradicted by the fact that the power button does not, in fact, turn the computer on.

There is a physical reason We believe it will turn on.

Also, that's what it does on other computers, so we know, since this is a computer, it should do the same.

Nimelennar · 6th April 2004, 21:57

But it may not, if the power supply's dead. Whatever. I'm abandoning the metaphor. My original statement stands:
1) I believed
2) The belief was justified. God is an influence in my life, on which brings a guiding presence, a sense of wholeness, and a moral compass into my life.
3) Therefore I continue to believe.

squakMix · 6th April 2004, 21:58

Quote:

Originally posted by Nimelennar

2) The belief was justified. God is an influence in my life, on which brings a guiding presence, a sense of wholeness, and a moral compass into my life.

You only have that "Guiding presence" because of the fact you believe in him.

So you have basically no argument:
You believe because you believe.

therefore, it's not justified.

Myxomatosis · 6th April 2004, 22:01

How do you know believing has made God help you? What if its pure coincidence that you magically survived a 5mph car crash?

cyu · 6th April 2004, 22:13

Quote:

Originally posted by squakMix
You only have that "Guiding presence" because of the fact you believe in him.

So you have basically no argument:
You believe because you believe.

therefore, it's not justified.

He doesn't have to justify anything. Like I said it is all based upon faith. If he feels that God has helped him in his life, let him be. He is not trying to convert you or any thing. Stop being so aggressive.

squakMix · 6th April 2004, 22:16

Quote:

Originally posted by cyu
He doesn't have to justify anything. Like I said it is all based upon faith. If he feels that God has helped him in his life, let him be. He is not trying to convert you or any thing. Stop being so aggressive.

Sorry If I came out that way. I dont mean to insult or offend anybody.

He just said that his argument was justified, and I am trying to get to the bottom of his belief... why he REALLY believes in christianity/god.

1 main reason I think many people believe in christianity is because that's how they were brought up... they have believed in it since they were very little, and it's really cold trying to go back on what you have known all your life.

SSJ4 Gogitta · 6th April 2004, 22:18

All I have to say about the subject is, thank God for atheism.

cyu · 6th April 2004, 22:20

Not exactly, a bunch of my classmates grew up in dedicated church going families. But now they are questioning their belief and some have moved away from it. It all depends on your own interpretation on what religion means in your life.

nice paradox ssj4

Nimelennar · 6th April 2004, 22:52

Quote:

Originally posted by squakMix
You only have that "Guiding presence" because of the fact you believe in him.

So you have basically no argument:
You believe because you believe.

therefore, it's not justified.

I don't get your argument. I have shown why I believe, and I can see the guiding presence clearly. The fact that you can't see it does not remove the justification for my faith. I believe because I have seen direct beneficial effects to my prayers, which, it is true, I would not have prayed had I not believed in the first place.

The onus is on you now, to prove that they were coincidences, or self-fulfilling prophecies, or whatever you want to make them, not on me to prove that they were not, because from what I've seen, the couldn't have been anything less than divine intervention.

I've told you why I can believe, and that is all you asked for. Why should you believe? Give it a real shot, and we'll talk.

xzxzzx · 6th April 2004, 23:17

Nimelennar:

I tell you that there are evil leprechauns on the dark side of the moon - it's not now your job to disprove it, it's my job to offer up proof (for example, what happened that was so extraordinary that it's unlikely to have been a coincidence?)

Occam's razor, my friend.

Nimelennar · 6th April 2004, 23:37

The title of the thread is "Tell me, Why on earth would I, or anyone else believe in god?"

I have told you why I would, and do, believe in God. I am not forcing that belief on anyone else. In fact, the way I've stated why I belive details it as a very personal reason to believe. Since I'm not saying why he should believe, but only why I do believe, it's up to you to convince me that it wasn't divine intervention.

To use your metaphor, yes, if I were trying to convince you that there were evil leprechauns on the dark side of the moon, the burden of proof would be on me. However, had I seen them, and claimed that as the reason why I believe that there are leprechauns there, the burden of proof would be on you if you wanted to dispute why I believe.

squakMix · 7th April 2004, 02:29

Quote:

Originally posted by Nimelennar
The title of the thread is "Tell me, Why on earth would I, or anyone else believe in god?"

I have told you why I would, and do, believe in God. I am not forcing that belief on anyone else. In fact, the way I've stated why I belive details it as a very personal reason to believe. Since I'm not saying why he should believe, but only why I do believe, it's up to you to convince me that it wasn't divine intervention.

To use your metaphor, yes, if I were trying to convince you that there were evil leprechauns on the dark side of the moon, the burden of proof would be on me. However, had I seen them, and claimed that as the reason why I believe that there are leprechauns there, the burden of proof would be on you if you wanted to dispute why I believe.

Yes, the thread is titled "Why would I, or anyone else, believe in god?" you havent given a SINGLE reason for me to believe in god... you just told me that you believe, and you believe BECAUSE of the fact that you pray, and it sometimes happends to come true. THat is so surcumstantial it barely makes sense. YOu say that it makes you feel good about yourself... yea, that, I guess is an effect of believing... It's not an effect of "god". You also say that your prays sometimes come true - Does any pray that couldnt happen on it's own, happen when you pray? I mean, you could pray your whole life for a hot stripper to appear in your room, but it will never happen. Therefore, only the likely prays come true.

I could seriously pray to the lepricon god everyday for things that are going to happen; I could pray that I will live another day, I could pray that I will go to work, I could pray that My fridgerator door will still be attached and oop, it all came true! I could say that A hundred percent of all my prays came true, therefore a lepricon god MUST exist. Oh yea, and because I believe him, it seems to comfort me through hard times. That's why you should believe in my lepricon god.

Fickle · 7th April 2004, 02:39

here's a good reason:

People who believe in a higher power have a greater chance of survival in a)Emergency Situations and b)Long term illnesses.

Oh, and don't bitch about religious people explaining thier religions. You are asking why you should believe, to do that, people must give thier own reasons simply to compare with yours.

Also, are you always this condescending to people? Do you really think you are smarter than people who believe in God? I find you to be an arrogant twerp at the moment.

Another good reason to believe in God; Why shouldn't you? Does it hurt someone else when you do it? No. And yet, you try and "rationalise" God by insulting people who believe in Him, and demote thier beliefs, which are just as important to them as your non belief. Get your fucking head out of your fucking ass.

squakMix · 7th April 2004, 04:23

Quote:

Originally posted by Fickle
here's a good reason:

People who believe in a higher power have a greater chance of survival in a)Emergency Situations and b)Long term illnesses.

Oh, and don't bitch about religious people explaining thier religions. You are asking why you should believe, to do that, people must give thier own reasons simply to compare with yours.

Also, are you always this condescending to people? Do you really think you are smarter than people who believe in God? I find you to be an arrogant twerp at the moment.

Another good reason to believe in God; Why shouldn't you? Does it hurt someone else when you do it? No. And yet, you try and "rationalise" God by insulting people who believe in Him, and demote thier beliefs, which are just as important to them as your non belief. Get your fucking head out of your fucking ass.

I'm going to stop listening to your bullshit. I dont care enough about what you have to say, to get mad at you and fight back. So know what? Ignore.

griffinn · 7th April 2004, 04:29

Despite all the animosity in here, we do have one common belief: We believe in godoncrack.

ryan · 7th April 2004, 04:30

Let people believe what they want and shut the fuck up.

squakMix · 7th April 2004, 04:33

Quote:

Originally posted by idiot
Let people believe what they want and shut the fuck up.

I'm not trying to change anyone's beliefs. I'm trying to understand them.

ryan · 7th April 2004, 04:34

If you don't believe it, why do you want to understand it?

squakMix · 7th April 2004, 05:07

Because I know that alot of christians arent stupid, and I fail to realize how christianity Makes sense at all (I'm not insulting your religion. Sorry if I offended you).

ryan · 7th April 2004, 05:11

I could give two shits and a fuck about religion. I'm just sick of threads about it.

AegenemmnoN · 7th April 2004, 06:11

i believe in me, so therefore, i believe in god.

xzxzzx · 7th April 2004, 07:31

Quote:

Originally posted by AegenemmnoN
i believe in me, so therefore, i believe in god.

I don't follow your logic, but
A+

(The cool people around here will get that.)

xzxzzx · 7th April 2004, 07:47

Quote:

Originally posted by Fickle
here's a good reason:

People who believe in a higher power have a greater chance of survival in a)Emergency Situations and b)Long term illnesses.

That would be a good reason, and while I don't disbelieve it, do you have a reputable study showing that?

ryan · 7th April 2004, 08:26

Quote:

Originally posted by xzxzzx
I don't follow your logic, but
A+

(The cool people around here will get that.)

Too bad I deleted my script aht disproves that theory

Jay · 7th April 2004, 09:28

wow this thread is a troll trap. squak you seem very hypocritical here. No one can prove anything, you can't prove that the big bang happened, no one can. We can only find evidence, just the same no one can prove that there is a God but we can find evidence in our lives of circumstances that seem to be influenced by another force. So in the end if you want to believe then do so in whatever you think happened, quit trying to find reasons to vilify their faith just because they can't prove it to you. No one can, so this debate is stupid.

idynkydnk · 7th April 2004, 13:26

Quote:

Originally posted by xzxzzx
That would be a good reason, and while I don't disbelieve it, do you have a reputable study showing that?

I'd like to see that study too

zootm · 7th April 2004, 13:31

Quote:

Originally posted by Nimelennar
Third, (summed up, not down) the reason that I believe in God is that I have believed in God, and I have found my faith is justified.

you know, the reason i don't believe in god is because i couldn't justify my belief. weird 'un. i'm more agnostic than anything else, though.

sandb937 · 7th April 2004, 15:18

ok, I have a question what would it take for you to belive in God. Would it be the prophecy's that were told that are comming true today? Meaning everything that God said would happen has and will come true!! And that you can rely on.

6th April 2004, 21:17	#47
LollipopLustKil Insomniac (Forum King) Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Ohio Posts: 3,034	Evanescense. Scotty Doesn't Know

6th April 2004, 21:20	#49
Nimelennar Major Dude Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Canada Posts: 841	sigh I'll put it this way. Say you have just bought a computer, with the OS preinstalled. You plug it in and get everything hooked up. You believe that the power button will turn it on, because that's what you were told it does. After it has started up the first time, it isn't the fact that you believed the first time that it would start up by pressing the power button that keeps you pressing the power button to turn it on, it's the fact that it worked. You could say I believe the power button will turn it on because you once believed that it would work, and that would be true, but it's only a fraction of the story. It's the same way with my faith. I believed in God. God helped me. Thus, I believe in God. The world is made of conflicts: good and evil, order and chaos, light and dark, hot and cold. All are essential to life. None can prevail for any length of time, or life will fail. In the end, the best any can hope for is balance.

6th April 2004, 21:24	#50
squakMix wwwyzzerdd (Forum King) Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 3,458	I think that It will turn on when I press the button, because of the fact that I know what the button does on other computers. I can also take apart the computer, and see exactly what it is that makes the computer turn on when I press the button. Also, the computer needs the help of two outside forces to turn on. 1: Me, pressing the button 2: Power, connected to the computer with a cable. Now, if there was just a random button sitting on the street, I dont expect a volcanoe will erupt when I press it. There's no reason I would believe that. "Oh BTW. How do you say 'stop throwing shit at the side of my house' in spanish?" Check out my music

6th April 2004, 21:26	#51
LollipopLustKil Insomniac (Forum King) Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Ohio Posts: 3,034	I'm gonna put a button on the sidewalk, and see if anyone actually presses it. Scotty Doesn't Know

6th April 2004, 21:48	#52
Nimelennar Major Dude Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Canada Posts: 841	What I was saying was that the first time you press the button, you only believe this particular button will turn the computer on. Afterwards, you have firsthand recollection that this button has turned the computer on in the past, which reinforces your belief that it will work in the future. On the other hand, if the power supply has burned out, your belief is contradicted by the fact that the power button does not, in fact, turn the computer on. The world is made of conflicts: good and evil, order and chaos, light and dark, hot and cold. All are essential to life. None can prevail for any length of time, or life will fail. In the end, the best any can hope for is balance.

6th April 2004, 21:16	#46
cyu Major Dude Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: in front of my pc Posts: 1,617	I guess you don't believe in a thing called the human spirit or essence.

6th April 2004, 21:57	#54
Nimelennar Major Dude Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Canada Posts: 841	But it may not, if the power supply's dead. Whatever. I'm abandoning the metaphor. My original statement stands: 1) I believed 2) The belief was justified. God is an influence in my life, on which brings a guiding presence, a sense of wholeness, and a moral compass into my life. 3) Therefore I continue to believe. The world is made of conflicts: good and evil, order and chaos, light and dark, hot and cold. All are essential to life. None can prevail for any length of time, or life will fail. In the end, the best any can hope for is balance.

6th April 2004, 22:01	#56
Myxomatosis aka bRiAnFuRY Fuck it dude... let's go bowling. (Major dud) Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 1,162	How do you know believing has made God help you? What if its pure coincidence that you magically survived a 5mph car crash? Alex Jones: Do you want the puppet on the right or the puppet on the left? What a bunch of garbage; liberal democrat, conservative, republican. It's all there to control you! Two sides of the same coin. Two management teams bidding for control, the CEO job of Slavery, Incorporated! The truth is out there in front of you, but they lay out this buffet of lies. I'm sick of it, and I'm not going to take a bite out of it, do you got me?

6th April 2004, 22:18	#59
SSJ4 Gogitta Followed by Gnomes (Forum King) Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: West Virginia Googolplex: 10^10¹°° FB:/SSJ4.DominusDeus DeviantArt: DominusDeus Xbox: DominusDeus Posts: 7,011	All I have to say about the subject is, thank God for atheism.

6th April 2004, 22:20	#60
cyu Major Dude Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: in front of my pc Posts: 1,617	Not exactly, a bunch of my classmates grew up in dedicated church going families. But now they are questioning their belief and some have moved away from it. It all depends on your own interpretation on what religion means in your life. nice paradox ssj4

6th April 2004, 23:17	#62
xzxzzx Forum King Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 7,267	Nimelennar: I tell you that there are evil leprechauns on the dark side of the moon - it's not now your job to disprove it, it's my job to offer up proof (for example, what happened that was so extraordinary that it's unlikely to have been a coincidence?) Occam's razor, my friend. Freedom of speech is the basic freedom of humanity. When you've lost that, you've lost everything. 1\/\/4y 34\|<$p4y 1gp4y 33714y, 0d4y 0uy4y? \| Roses are #FF0000; Violets are #0000FF; chown -R ${YOU} ~/base The DMCA. It really is that bad. : Count for your life.

6th April 2004, 23:37	#63
Nimelennar Major Dude Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Canada Posts: 841	The title of the thread is "Tell me, Why on earth would I, or anyone else believe in god?" I have told you why I would, and do, believe in God. I am not forcing that belief on anyone else. In fact, the way I've stated why I belive details it as a very personal reason to believe. Since I'm not saying why he should believe, but only why I do believe, it's up to you to convince me that it wasn't divine intervention. To use your metaphor, yes, if I were trying to convince you that there were evil leprechauns on the dark side of the moon, the burden of proof would be on me. However, had I seen them, and claimed that as the reason why I believe that there are leprechauns there, the burden of proof would be on you if you wanted to dispute why I believe. The world is made of conflicts: good and evil, order and chaos, light and dark, hot and cold. All are essential to life. None can prevail for any length of time, or life will fail. In the end, the best any can hope for is balance.

7th April 2004, 02:39	#65
Fickle Butterknife of Justice (Forum King) Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Behind you. Posts: 5,504	here's a good reason: People who believe in a higher power have a greater chance of survival in a)Emergency Situations and b)Long term illnesses. Oh, and don't bitch about religious people explaining thier religions. You are asking why you should believe, to do that, people must give thier own reasons simply to compare with yours. Also, are you always this condescending to people? Do you really think you are smarter than people who believe in God? I find you to be an arrogant twerp at the moment. Another good reason to believe in God; Why shouldn't you? Does it hurt someone else when you do it? No. And yet, you try and "rationalise" God by insulting people who believe in Him, and demote thier beliefs, which are just as important to them as your non belief. Get your fucking head out of your fucking ass. Go read a book without pictures pabook? \| Look, a blog! \| Buy Stuff I Wrote

7th April 2004, 04:29	#67
griffinn Court Jester (Forum King) Join Date: May 2000 Location: Your local toystore Posts: 3,502	Despite all the animosity in here, we do have one common belief: We believe in godoncrack. The smiley slot machine! \| Quotable Blog

7th April 2004, 04:30	#68
ryan not fucked, not quite. (Forum King) Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Tn Posts: 8,755	Let people believe what they want and shut the fuck up.

7th April 2004, 04:34	#70
ryan not fucked, not quite. (Forum King) Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Tn Posts: 8,755	If you don't believe it, why do you want to understand it?

7th April 2004, 05:07	#71
squakMix wwwyzzerdd (Forum King) Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 3,458	Because I know that alot of christians arent stupid, and I fail to realize how christianity Makes sense at all (I'm not insulting your religion. Sorry if I offended you). "Oh BTW. How do you say 'stop throwing shit at the side of my house' in spanish?" Check out my music

7th April 2004, 05:11	#72
ryan not fucked, not quite. (Forum King) Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Tn Posts: 8,755	I could give two shits and a fuck about religion. I'm just sick of threads about it.

7th April 2004, 06:11	#73
AegenemmnoN Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: The Shire. Posts: 38	i believe in me, so therefore, i believe in god.

7th April 2004, 09:28	#77
Jay Moderator Alumni Join Date: May 2000 Location: Next Door Posts: 8,888	wow this thread is a troll trap. squak you seem very hypocritical here. No one can prove anything, you can't prove that the big bang happened, no one can. We can only find evidence, just the same no one can prove that there is a God but we can find evidence in our lives of circumstances that seem to be influenced by another force. So in the end if you want to believe then do so in whatever you think happened, quit trying to find reasons to vilify their faith just because they can't prove it to you. No one can, so this debate is stupid. -Jay \| Radio Toolbox.com

7th April 2004, 15:18	#80
sandb937 Major Dude Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 818	ok, I have a question what would it take for you to belive in God. Would it be the prophecy's that were told that are comming true today? Meaning everything that God said would happen has and will come true!! And that you can rely on.

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