UK Joins in Abuse of Prisions

[dlinkwit27]

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/040430/325/esid9.html

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews...name_page.html

A HOODED Iraqi captive is beaten by British soldiers before being thrown from a moving truck and left to die.

The prisoner, aged 18-20, begged for mercy as he was battered with rifle butts and batons in the head and groin, was kicked, stamped and urinated on, and had a gun barrel forced into his mouth.

After an EIGHT-HOUR ordeal, he was left barely conscious and close to death. Bleeding and vomiting and with a broken jaw and missing teeth, he was driven from a Basra camp and hurled off the truck. No one knows if he lived or died.

[image]
URINATED ON: A British soldier urinates on an Iraqi prisoner in a vile display of abuse. The captive was beaten and hurled from a moving truck. Army chiefs are investigating.

The shocking pictures on this page were handed to us by one of the attackers and a colleague. We have agreed to protect their identities as they fear reprisals.

Last night, their damning testimony was in the hands of appalled ministers and Army chiefs who pledged an urgent investigation.

Chief of the General Staff General Sir Michael Jackson said: "If this is proven, the perpetrators are not fit to wear the Queen's uniform. They have besmirched the good name of the Army and its honour."

No 10 said: "The Prime Minister fully endorses the general's statement."

The outrage, which emerged the day after US troops were pictured torturing Iraqi prisoners of war, makes a mockery of the Army's attempts to win the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people.

[image]GUN TO HEAD: The terrified suspect cowers as a gun is placed at his head - then the rifle barrel was forced into his mouth

Army chiefs believe it was an isolated incident involving a few rogue troops. But, it is claimed, officers turned a blind eye. One of the soldiers said: "Basically this guy was dying as he couldn't take any more. An officer came down. It was 'Get rid of him - I haven't seen him'. The paperwork gets ripped. So they threw him out, still with a bag on his head."

Weeks after the pictures were taken, a captive was allegedly beaten to death in custody by men from the same Queen's Lancashire Regiment. It is also alleged a video was found of prisoners being thrown off a bridge.

Soldier A told how the young victim was hauled in suspected of stealing from the docks.

He said: "You pick on a man and go for him. Straightaway he gets a beating, a couple of punches and kicks to put him down. Then he was dragged to the back of the vehicle."

Immediately a sandbag was placed over the man's head and his hands tied behind his back.

Soldier A said:

As we took him back he was getting a beating. He was hit with batons on the knees, fingers, toes, elbows, and head.

You normally try to leave off the face until you're in camp. If you pull up with black eyes and bleeding faces you could be in s**t.

"So it's body shots - scaring him, saying 'We're going to kill you'. A lot of them cry and p*** themselves.

Because it was so hot we put him in the back of a four- tonner truck which has a canopy over it. That's where the photos were taken. Lads were taking turns giving him a right going over, smashing him in the face with weapons and stamping on him. We had him for about eight hours.



[image]
BLEEDING: Blood seeps through the mask of battered suspect

You could see blood coming out early from the first 'digs'. He was p****d on and there was spew.

"We took his mask off to give him some water and let him have a rest for 10 minutes. He could only speak a few words, pleading 'No, mister' . No, mister'.

I did less than the others. But I joined in. Me and my mate calmed down. Then two lads come on and it starts again.

"He was missing teeth. All his mouth was bleeding and his nose was all over the place. He couldn't talk, his jaw was out. He's had a good few hours of a kicking. He was on his way to being killed. There's only so much you can take.

After the officer allegedly told the attackers to get rid of the suspect he was driven off.

Soldier A said: "The lads said they took him back to the dock and threw him off the back of a moving vehicle. They'd have freed his hands, but he'd still be hooded. He'd done nothing, really. I felt sorry for him. I'm not emotional about it, but I knew it was wrong."

Referring to the second alleged beating in custody - said to have taken place in September - Soldier B said: "It was only a matter of time.

[image]
BUTT IN GROIN: A rifle is cruelly jabbed in the young man's groin as his eight-hour nightmare goes on

"We had one who fought back. I thought 'Don't do that', it's the worst thing you can do. He got such a kicking. You could hear your mate's boots hitting this lad's spine.

"One of the lads broke his wrist on a prisoner's head. Another nearly broke his foot, kicking him. We're not helping ourselves out here. We're never going to get the Iraqis on our side. We're fighting a losing war."

Soldier B claimed after the alleged September beating troops were told to destroy incriminating evidence.

He said: "We got a warning, saying the Military Police had found a video of people throwing prisoners off a bridge. It wasn't 'Don't do it' or 'Stop it'. It was 'Get rid of it.' "

The death is being probed. At least one soldier is expected to be charged with manslaughter.

The two infantrymen claim abuse has started because Iraqi police are powerless to process suspects.

Soldier B said: "There's no point taking them to the police station because they're released within 20 minutes. The coppers don't want any comeback and let them go. All we do is teach them a lesson our way.

"You're knackered and you don't want to be going to a police station and doing statements, just for them to be released. Give them a kicking, then it's done and dusted.

"A lot of the younger ones are worse. It's as though they've something to prove. You've got a gun and you're the law. You can make people do whatever you want."

Both men fear the situation is worsening , with UK troops now seen as the enemy, rather than liberators.

One said: "I can't believe it has taken the Iraqis so long to fight back. If it had been me or my family, I'd have retaliated straightaway.

"They've just got f****d around so much. You can't go in now, and say 'Right, let's forget about what has happened and start again'.

"We're struggling now. There are too many people against us."

The MoD confirmed eight cases of alleged mistreatment of Iraqis by British personnel are being investigated by the army's Special Investigations Branch. A spokesman said: "All allegations will be investigated - and every soldier knows it."

[zootm]

i was on my way to post this, actually.

harsh.

the mirror is a crap newspaper, though. although i guess they are the source from which everyone else is getting this story. not trying to say that this is false, just trying to account for the poor writing.

edit: you don't seem to be able to link straight to the article. try this.

edit2:

"One of the lads broke his wrist on a prisoner's head. Another nearly broke his foot, kicking him. We're not helping ourselves out here. We're never going to get the Iraqis on our side. We're fighting a losing war."

this is the quote that really hit me - i always wondered "aren't the troops involved thinking about this?"

they're killing iraqis, which is, in the long term, killing their comrades. violence begets violence, we all know this. i just hope things like this can be made to stop. that if there are any people left doing this, that they see the damage they are doing. and if that doesn't happen, that they are made to see the damage they're doing.

[Bazman63]

This is what going to war is really like. This shit happens all the time, all over the world.

This is why dialogue, not violence, is the only solution to conflict.

[ShyShy]

Originally posted by Bazman63
This is why dialogue, not violence, is the only solution to conflict.

Only works if both/multiple parties are willing to talk. But, there's always someone that has to be the bully on the block.

[marvinbarcelona]

And, I'm sorry to say ShyShy, the bully on the block is the US.

The US & UK has lost this war, the Iraqi people are never going to tolerate the occupation. The problem now is how to pull out and not leave a shattered, war-torn country.

[cyu]

I guess Iraq will be another Vietnam like many predicted.

[dlinkwit27]

I'm waiting for philly to reply and tell us all how this is the US's fault.

[griffinn]

Originally posted by dlinkwit27
I'm waiting for philly to reply and tell us all how this is the US's fault.

Wow, a preemptive strike. How American.

[baafie]

I feel ashamed and angry towards the soldiers, and I feel sorry for those tortured..

.. but other than expressing my feelings, I can't think of anything sensible to say about it. So I'll just shut up..

[mikeflca]

Originally posted by dlinkwit27
I'm waiting for philly to reply and tell us all how this is the US's fault.

I think marvin came close to doing that by saying that the US is the "bully on the block". but, he's right in that regard, although this (the British people beating the prisoners) is certainly not the US's fault.

well the whole world is fucked up. this occurence in itself isn't very surprising.

[marvinbarcelona]

In this instance it isn't the US, but there is already another investigation going on in regards to US brutality.

And yes, this is the fault of the US, but supported by the UK.

And I'm sorry go into "I told you so" mode, but virtually everything the anti-war section have predictated has come to pass.

[gaekwad2]

Actually I'm waiting for Bilbo or Xerxes to giver their usual "civilized west vs primitive barbarians" speech.

[marvinbarcelona]

gaekwad2, your avator, Dennis Wilson I believe? Pacific Ocean Blue, a master-piece.

[gaekwad2]

[Bazman63]

Originally posted by ShyShy
Only works if both/multiple parties are willing to talk. But, there's always someone that has to be the bully on the block.

It's never easy, and it's harder after the shooting starts, but it can be done. Look at the North of Ireland. 30 years of mindless slaughter on all sides, human rights abuses, the de-humanisation of all parties. But in the end, after extremely couragous efforts on the part of a few people, negotiations were entered into between the Replicans, ("we won't lay down arms until the Brits pull out") and the British Government, (we never talk to terrorists).

If going to war was harder than entering into dialogue there wouldn't be any war. So it takes a greater bravery and level of intelligence to not kill someone so you can talk, than it does to push the button on a smart bomb.

[zootm]

*applause*

[dlinkwit27]

Originally posted by marvinbarcelona
In this instance it isn't the US, but there is already another investigation going on in regards to US brutality.

hence the "joins"

And yes, this is the fault of the US

how?

[Xerxes]

The veracity of the photos is already under attack:

http://www.thisislondon.com/til/jsp/...temId=10562467

Here is the cover page and the two previous covers of the important, serious news-periodical that broke this story.







Very serious journalism here.

[Mr Jones]

Daily Mirror in the Uk is on a par with some of the better student rag magazines, take anything you read in there with the largest pinch of table salt you can find.

British journalism, best in the world.

/take pinch of salt now.

[Bilbo Baggins]

I notice no-one has bothered to mention the slight flaws in the photos yet:

1) Wrong rifle type shown

2) No movement in the photos, from either the feet or the prisoners.

3) Clean state of the prisoners. No bumps or bruises you would expect of such a badly treated prisoner.

And notice how this story magically broke on the pages of the left wing rag, so vehemently opposed to the war?
Or why do no western journals offer pictures of the Coalition soliders brutalised by the Iraqis? We dont count seemingly.

[dlinkwit27]

I only posted it because I saw it in multiple sources (mirror and yahoo). I had never ehard of the mirror, figured it was a UK magazine, so posted anyway.

/shrug.

[Xerxes]

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/med...p?story=518616

Inquiry launched into veracity of pictures...

[Bazman63]

I now have serious doubts as to the veracity of the pictures.

I don't doubt there's been some nasty stuff happening, but there's something fishy about the photos. Piers Morgan is a bit of a slimeball as well. Bet he gets fired for this if it's proved the pics were staged.

[Starbucks]

If im not mistaken, the 85 billion Bush asked for is already spent. I'm wondering how can the U.S. rebuild Iraq if Iraqis don't want any sort of U.S. occupation, military or contractor.

[ElChevelle]

Time to move on to one of the other "Axis of Evil" eh, George?

[mikeflca]

I agree that at least some of the photos might have been a bit fucked, but Bush actually said there was going to be an inquiry into the abuse of prisoners etc. And i doubt that he would say something like this if the CIA or a similar agency hadn't verified that at least some of the photos were real.

Besides, I've seen some pretty stupid stuff before. Like, one time, a bunch of morons came and mooned us at the tennis courts, but actually videotaped it. It was pretty funny when the police got hold of the videotape.

[Xerxes]

The question remains - if they did fake this, who was the unlucky brown skinned intern who had to get peed on?

Talk about yellow journalism.

[old and quite mad]

Originally posted by marvinbarcelona
And, I'm sorry to say ShyShy, the bully on the block is the US.

The US & UK has lost this war, the Iraqi people are never going to tolerate the occupation. The problem now is how to pull out and not leave a shattered, war-torn country.

The US and UK lost the war?

Hmmmmmm. The American Army (or part of it) is currently parked in Iraq. I look out my window, and I see no sight of the Iraqi Army anywhere.

Wrong on that count, MarvelousBarfBaloney.

Iraqi people aren't going to tolerate an occupation? Yes, yes they will (see above about whose Army is parked where).

The "problem" now is how to bring a society that LIKES living in the 13th century into the 21st. That's going to take awhile. Hell. It took "us" about 700 years.

No, MarvelousBarfBaloney, you and your comrades in ANSWER don't get to call the rules on the debate. I realize that it is your job to hang out in internet forums and spread your gospel of hatred and discontent, but you are known for what you are.

Tell everyone here , MarvelousBarfBaloney, why you NEVER seem to get riled up when the bad guys feed people into chipper/shredders, why you NEVER seem to get riled up when they cut off the ears of their daughters because they were seen talking to a man, why you NEVER seem to get upset when they cut off the legs of a woman because she might be an adulteress. Why is that, MarvelousBarfBaloney? DO you have an agenda? Are you paid to run off at the mouth, or is it still a hobby for you?

MarvelousBarfBaloney, your side lost the war. Your side is losing the transition. Your side will lose the peace. And do you know why, MarvelousBarfBaloney? Because you and your ilk are losers. It is your place in the Greater Scheme Of Things.

[gaekwad2]

So the US didn't lose the Vietman war and the Soviet Union didn't lose in Afghanistan?

You seem to forget one tiny thing: Our governments and armies are not supposed to act like terrorists.

I won't go as low as to comment on the rest of your rant.

[Bazman63]

[i]Originally posted by gaekwad2

You seem to forget one tiny thing: Our governments and armies are not supposed to act like terrorists.

I won't go as low as to comment on the rest of your rant. [/B]

Applause.

[will]

Originally posted by old and quite mad
The US and UK lost the war?

Hmmmmmm. The American Army (or part of it) is currently parked in Iraq. I look out my window, and I see no sight of the Iraqi Army anywhere.

Wrong on that count, MarvelousBarfBaloney.

Iraqi people aren't going to tolerate an occupation? Yes, yes they will (see above about whose Army is parked where).

The "problem" now is how to bring a society that LIKES living in the 13th century into the 21st. That's going to take awhile. Hell. It took "us" about 700 years.

No, MarvelousBarfBaloney, you and your comrades in ANSWER don't get to call the rules on the debate. I realize that it is your job to hang out in internet forums and spread your gospel of hatred and discontent, but you are known for what you are.

Tell everyone here , MarvelousBarfBaloney, why you NEVER seem to get riled up when the bad guys feed people into chipper/shredders, why you NEVER seem to get riled up when they cut off the ears of their daughters because they were seen talking to a man, why you NEVER seem to get upset when they cut off the legs of a woman because she might be an adulteress. Why is that, MarvelousBarfBaloney? DO you have an agenda? Are you paid to run off at the mouth, or is it still a hobby for you?

MarvelousBarfBaloney, your side lost the war. Your side is losing the transition. Your side will lose the peace. And do you know why, MarvelousBarfBaloney? Because you and your ilk are losers. It is your place in the Greater Scheme Of Things.

*Standing Ovation*

[Bazman63]

Let's bomb them into to the 21st century.

[Wolfgang]

What's so great about the 21st century? I'd rather have stayed in the late 90s.

[ElChevelle]

We could drop Sony Walkmans on 'em.

[devils night]

with this news today it sound like they switch from a dictator to another dictator. look at this for a second. the us has put the death penalty back into law and then they go to war with iraq just by themselves mostly. this is getting very bad. i can see one of these days the US will become like the soviet union split up but that probly will not happen for a very very long time .

but this is my opinion i don't know if its yours

[devils night]

[B The US and UK lost the war?

Hmmmmmm. The American Army (or part of it) is currently parked in Iraq. I look out my window, and I see no sight of the Iraqi Army anywhere.

Wrong on that count, MarvelousBarfBaloney.

Iraqi people aren't going to tolerate an occupation? Yes, yes they will (see above about whose Army is parked where).

The "problem" now is how to bring a society that LIKES living in the 13th century into the 21st. That's going to take awhile. Hell. It took "us" about 700 years.

No, MarvelousBarfBaloney, you and your comrades in ANSWER don't get to call the rules on the debate. I realize that it is your job to hang out in internet forums and spread your gospel of hatred and discontent, but you are known for what you are.

Tell everyone here , MarvelousBarfBaloney, why you NEVER seem to get riled up when the bad guys feed people into chipper/shredders, why you NEVER seem to get riled up when they cut off the ears of their daughters because they were seen talking to a man, why you NEVER seem to get upset when they cut off the legs of a woman because she might be an adulteress. Why is that, MarvelousBarfBaloney? DO you have an agenda? Are you paid to run off at the mouth, or is it still a hobby for you?

MarvelousBarfBaloney, your side lost the war. Your side is losing the transition. Your side will lose the peace. And do you know why, MarvelousBarfBaloney? Because you and your ilk are losers. It is your place in the Greater Scheme Of Things. [/B]

spoken like a true American. heh this is fun when the american people keep trying to keep sticking up for the countary saying they won that war completly like in this case . i think i will search for a post where they were trying to talk up there statments on the friendly fire on the canadians

[Wolfgang]

Well, as Agent Smith said, the height of our civilisation was at the end of the 20th century, so technically we are now becoming less civilised.

And old and quite mad, isn't domestic inflation a bit of a hint that things aren't going great in Iraq? The same thing happened with Vietnam. When the prices of things started to go up, then people REALLY started to notice that the war wasn't being won. Check our what the rest of the world think, not only the people in the USA. You'll find most of the world think Bush, Cheney and their pals are a bunch of twats and that the US should mind their own business and not behave like they own the world. This has been said so many times, but some people just don't get it.

[Wildrose-Wally]

Originally posted by devils night
spoken like a true American. heh this is fun when the american people keep trying to keep sticking up for the countary saying they won that war completly like in this case . i think i will search for a post where they were trying to talk up there statments on the friendly fire on the canadians

I'll say this as a Canadian: lay off. Accidents happen both in war and in peace, and especially in war nobody is guaranteed a free ride. Not even the Canadians.

[griffinn]

But the question remains: Is "prisions" a bad abbreviation of "Persians" and "prisoners"?

[mikm]

Ironic that one of the purpoted reasons for removing Saddam was because of the torture...(I'm not saying that it is on the same level, but still...).