Old 29th November 2004, 04:12   #41
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Alternative YP my f'n ass.

So you have a web based form for someone to fill out. What if someone sends a bot after your form, and floods your self moderation process with bogus crap. I don't know if self moderation was ever discussed during the creation of YP, but that's one reason I can think of to have it automated.

Now not everyone is going to play by the rules. So there are bots that go around checking to see if streams are valid. Invalid streams are removed from the YP. Usually they come from 1 or 2 hosts. Keeping up with that is easy.

What nailed the YP this weekend was a botnet. Someone really had it in for the YP. There was so many bogus listings coming from so many different IP's that the bot could not keep up with the demand. Banning 1 listing meant 2 more popped up in its place from a different IP.

That's what you face bulk. The guys in the war room at #nullsoft are a group that are tackling this problem everyday. Teaming together with the superbrains created in goverment labrotories they fight a neverending battle.

Oh and forget what I said about the superbrains.
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Old 29th November 2004, 04:57   #42
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Hi everyone:
Quote:
Originally posted by bingo
- works pretty good
- runs on Win32 only
- cheap licensing for commercial uses
- viewers should have it installed if you want to reduce your bandwidth usage
- you'll have to tweak the resources to allow
I'll have to second these comments Jant77. Though if there's one thing that's missing, that would be a translation on their website from AQH (which is what they use to measure a stations total hours) to the more familiar (at least to me anyways, being a Live365 broadcaster on the radio side) TLH format (Or at least a listing in BOTH AQH & TLH). Then this way, I get a pretty rough idea as to how well my station is REALLY doing on StreamerP2P.

Other than that, I really can't complain. The help & support is FABULOUS (comparable to us) and there's a sense of community there (Again, comparable to us).

Now, as to your earlier comments about the porn streams (as well as to to Bulk's as well), I know there have been a few honest porn NSV SHOUTcasters out there. I just named DLDVDS specifically since they offer (thus far anyways) THE MOST streams (3 that I can recall last time the directory was up) which anyone can get just about every time they connect. I wasn't trying to "bad mouth" all the other honest porn streamers out there, which is why I used the word "all" rather gingerly. I guess I didn't put enough ginger in it, eh?

Anyhow....Sorry if anyone felt offended by my lack of clarification.

Cheers for now everyone & HAPPY HOLIDAYS

Pat Cook
Englewood, CO
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Old 29th November 2004, 05:38   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by Inedible Bulk
plus id probably implement a limit on ips, you get to use 5 ips until you notify us you get to use more. there would be a little 'captcha' thing so autoregistering would be out of the question. result? 400 fake porn servers take a few hours to put up.
Quote:
Originally posted by DJ AmPs
On a separate topic, for the sign up thing, just have one of those png images with messed up numbers and letters that a human has to repeat when signing up =). That way bots won't be able to do what was done to the nullsoft YP.
Quote:
Originally posted by t0qer
What if someone sends a bot after your form, and floods your self moderation process with bogus crap.
Ok, first: I said captcha, that's what the weird png is. t0qer didn't understand that's what captcha is and then decided that bots would be auto registering, but too bad I already ruled that out.

You all suck. Thanks for reading.

Originally posted by yeshuawatso :
...get Nullsoft to [accept] new moderators? ... election? ... If Inedible Bulk is the candidate, then I give my vote.
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Old 29th November 2004, 07:15   #44
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is this going to be fixed? I was about to open a internet TV station.
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Old 29th November 2004, 07:25   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by reflex_mapper
is this going to be fixed? I was about to open a internet TV station.
Please bother to actually read the thread. You will find the anwser on the first page.

Count with us!
Jan 1st, 12AM (PST, GMT -8) 2010 - 282,246
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Old 29th November 2004, 14:18   #46
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why, you people, don't bookmark your internet tv stations...? do it in the future...
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Old 29th November 2004, 15:52   #47
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Ok I've checked my prefs still only getting two streams? But if u want to go to other internet TV streams go to www.saltwaterchimp.com can watch some of the same stuff that was on the server.
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Old 29th November 2004, 16:39   #48
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ok all this bs about an alternative yp is actually something i have thought about as well for many many months...

i can very easliy code this in php, mysql, and have "bot" run the check processes every so often...

i have already done this in a small form for ravetrax, which checks all my servers every 15 seconds, but mine has a full stats output reading all the xml and 7.html figuers..

where as this yp idea would only need to gather listener counts, title, and if the server is up...

i just never thought it would get used with shoutcast running its list as well.

Echo34 - A music related irc network for the socially challenged. [ website | chat now ]

Stream Solutions - The next level of Shoutcast server hosting! [ website | forums ]

RaveTrax - Its not a state of mind, Its a way of life. [ website | forums | chatroom ]
» Gen2 A/V Streams - NSV Video [vp6.2 & 64k aacPlus v2] - 64k aacPlus v2 - 24k aacPlus v2
» AMPX Player - Web based player that plays ALL streams! [Audio & Audio/Video]
» Other Streams - 160k MP3 - 64k MP3 - 24k MP3
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Old 29th November 2004, 18:24   #49
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<<<<why, you people, don't bookmark your internet tv stations...? do it in the future...>>>>

Couse that thing happened very 1'st time and nobody give a damn about bookmark the stream then...even if u did so..tha's not gonna help anyone but U...
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Old 29th November 2004, 18:33   #50
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Unfortunately any listing service you come up with is going to be vulnerable to attack. The idea of station registration has been floating around Nullsoft for many moons, but it was never implemented. As I have said in the past and will say again, you can only mitigate attacks like this, you can't completely prevent them. If someone has it out for you then they will do their best to find ways around what you throw at them. Ever since I first learned about the http trick 4 years ago I knew this sort of thing would become a problem eventually. At any rate I still believe that the listing is not the problem it's the client (winamp). without support for such things this type of attack would be useless.
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Old 29th November 2004, 23:27   #51
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Please, take all talk of an alternative yp to this thread. (P.S. could write a program to intercept connections to the yp from the shoutcast, and then send it to multiple yps, a yproxy as it were)

to jay: a registration system for shoutcast would make it so hard for newbs to even think of, but a real alternative yp run professionally (as they say, private business usually does it better than the government in many cases, consider AOL the .gov) would be a real boon for the listings. a plugin to add them into winamp would add to the ease of use, and the ability to use said listings on other os's as well is another hit.

to ravetrax: if you're serious about programming this please msg me

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...get Nullsoft to [accept] new moderators? ... election? ... If Inedible Bulk is the candidate, then I give my vote.
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Old 30th November 2004, 00:36   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by Inedible Bulk
...(P.S. could write a program to intercept connections to the yp from the shoutcast, and then send it to multiple yps, a yproxy as it were)...
I hear the icecast folks are already working on something like this for icecast style lists.
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Old 30th November 2004, 02:28   #53
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A suggested design for an Alternate NSV YP

Yep... we need to do something about this quick.

---------------

[IMG]http://www.jamaicans*****code/index.php?passin=nsv[/IMG]

At the above link is a graphic containing a possible alternative YP design.

Note: In some cases I used some hardware symbols to denote software.

All of the components in systems A and B can be found open source somewhere. It's just a stupid proxy server. Anyone broadcasting would have to add this software.

The component in system D is the one that doesn't work now.

I would have to write two pieces of software in system E.

I could do this in 30 days.

I've attached a full sized graphic also.
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Old 30th November 2004, 07:15   #54
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BTW, any new developments on this issue? Have you guys already made up some solution or not yet?
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Old 30th November 2004, 07:31   #55
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Nothing new as of now
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Old 30th November 2004, 07:46   #56
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A short term and a long term fix.

In the short term you should simply mask out the porn sites.

In the long term find a real fix.

Think about it. Inaction will make Shoutcast NSV invalid.

Charles
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Old 30th November 2004, 07:52   #57
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This may be easier than I thought.

As I mentioned, one of the only ways to make an alternative IP can be seen below.

[IMG]http://www.jamaicans*****wordpress/images/mini-Alternative YP Server.jpg[/IMG]

I thought I found a hole in the design though. The question is "How is the IP address of the alternative IP advertised to the general public at large?" That is, how is the Apache webserver (that serves the new NSV directory to browers) made known to the public. Actually, come to think of it, this isn't being done that well now. What I am saying is the listing of your video stream can't be found in at www.shoutcast.com. Therefore this implementation could be phase 2. This implementation would actually fix a shoutcast.com bug.

Right consumers of video to go to winamp for the NSV YP directory. Of course in the new design winamp, located on the client desktop, will be able to find the alternative IP. So only the "NSV YP Server deamon" and the "Winamp directory server daemon", shown in my diagram, would have to be coded from scratch. Of course this assumes that a program such as "Squid" can redirect streams from the NSV servers, in the world, to the Alternate NSV server.

See more on Squid at http://www.squid-cache.org. On my chart this component is called the "Windows/Linux Software Plugin". There are Squid binaries available in most operating systems.

I'll keep thinking about this. At a certain point I'll begin implementing it.

Charles
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Old 30th November 2004, 07:57   #58
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Re: A short term and a long term fix.

Quote:
Originally posted by dreadsusna
In the short term you should simply mask out the porn sites.

In the long term find a real fix.

Think about it. Inaction will make Shoutcast NSV invalid.

Charles
damnit, you people don't understand that it's not porn streams what causes problems??
they ban porn, and that fag will come up with "FREE HBO BROADCAST" or something similar.
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Old 30th November 2004, 08:06   #59
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I guess you're right

I guess you're right. We must stop 100% of the crap. Reducing the amount of crap that hits the server is not a valid short term solution.
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Old 30th November 2004, 08:22   #60
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No shit?
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Old 30th November 2004, 15:27   #61
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Quote:
Originally posted by Inedible Bulk
Ok, first: I said captcha, that's what the weird png is. t0qer didn't understand that's what captcha is and then decided that bots would be auto registering, but too bad I already ruled that out.

You all suck. Thanks for reading.
From the Wikipedia Captcha Article
Quote:
Circumvention

Some free e-mail providers have used captchas in account registration, to deter spammers from obtaining large numbers of accounts automatically. Spammers have found a way to circumvent this restriction: simply present the captcha to a human user under false pretenses, and use the human's response to obtain the e-mail account.

To do this, the spammer must control a Web site to which human users wish to gain access — for instance, a pornography site. When a user goes to the spammer's porn site, the server starts a new account registration at the free e-mail provider. It downloads the provider's captcha and presents it to the user as a captcha for access to the porn site. The user, not knowing that the captcha is recycled, provides the correct response — and the spammer's software can then complete the e-mail account registration.

I was away for a while.
But I'm feeling much better now.
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Old 30th November 2004, 16:24   #62
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you may not notice, but these forums use a captcha.
you may also not notice, but i spend an awful lot of time deleting spammers accounts from these forums before they even get chance to spam it.

not to mention all the mods working around the clock to keep it clean.

And that isnt even with the entertaining thought of infecting people with spyware.

People find a way.

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Old 30th November 2004, 18:20   #63
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Why the hell can nobody with admin rights for the media library ad our streams manualy, after a content check, to the list same as its done with the 2 already listed streams ? It realy can't be so hard to do it. Who is responsible for the list ?

Kind regards
Chris (Thaidisco.net)
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Old 30th November 2004, 19:00   #64
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Quote:
Originally posted by Thaidisco.net
Why the hell can nobody with admin rights for the media library ad our streams manualy, after a content check, to the list same as its done with the 2 already listed streams ? It realy can't be so hard to do it. Who is responsible for the list ?

Kind regards
Chris (Thaidisco.net)
because they don't want to?
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Old 30th November 2004, 19:12   #65
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Jay's comment is really funny. But he's right.

Charles
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Old 30th November 2004, 19:15   #66
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Quote:
Originally posted by KXRM
I hear the icecast folks are already working on something like this for icecast style lists.
yeah, its nice:
http://www.oddsock.org/tools/ml_icecastlist/
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Old 30th November 2004, 19:17   #67
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Hmmm.... and why they don't wanna do this ? What could be the reason for this, and who are "they" ? Is it the lame AOL stuff ?

Kind regards
Chris
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Old 30th November 2004, 19:26   #68
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'They' don't want to do it because it would be a pain in the ass, because it would require more manpower than available, and because it would show some sort of manual consent to what's being shown, which may incur further liabilities down the road.

If you were a paying customer who was paying a fee for SHOUTcast support and services, you might have room to bitch about this. Considering we are all using a free service here, it would behoove you to be patient rather than rile up the already over-worked unpaid support that we do have.
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Old 30th November 2004, 19:46   #69
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Quote:
...it would be a pain in the ass, because it would require more manpower than available...
No problem, they can use my "manpower" for this. It realy can't be so hard to ad a few famous stations like "RaveTrax" or "7bamboo" to a listing. You are right, its a great free service with a nice community and we should offer our "manpower" to help them out if we can.

Kind regards
Chris
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Old 30th November 2004, 19:53   #70
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Unfortunately you pose an answer to only one problem of many.
Quote:
Originally posted by joshie
...and because it would show some sort of manual consent to what's being shown, which may incur further liabilities down the road.

If you were a paying customer who was paying a fee for SHOUTcast support and services, you might have room to bitch about this...
not saying that this is the problem but these are equally good points.

Apply Coffee algorithm.
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Old 30th November 2004, 20:01   #71
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You guys should make sure to read the "Null Soft Streaming Videl > Alternative YP?" thread.

We're building the beginnings of an Alternative NSV YP server.
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Old 30th November 2004, 22:20   #72
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I lurk on these boards alot, and have been reading what ya'll have been saying lately. There are only a few people who have mentioned it, but, the answer to this is definitely not an alternative YP. I would say a good 1/3 or more of our traffic came from the Media Library section that is already in Winamp. People stumble upon that, or, in our case, find it because our radio and TV station are essentially the only ones that come up when your keyword is "Reggaeton." That's massive for us. I saw our tune-ins drop from 25,000 a day down to 6,000. That's substantial hit to take, and just as we were starting some new features .

I don't know who can answer this for me, or if anybody can. I have been reading about the shake-up over at Nullsoft. Is this problem even being worked on, ie. are there actually plans for the YP to go back up? Or is this going to just be left as it is because of a lack of funds and will?

Hate to ask the tough question, but nobody had just come out and asked it (prolly because the answer might not make us too happy).

------------------
Ameno
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Old 30th November 2004, 22:30   #73
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Ameno,

Your point is very well taken. I'll let you know as soon as the Alternate YP is up send links into the Winamp media library.

Let me know if you can think of an alternative I can help you with. I welcome a better idea.

Cheers.

Charles
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Old 30th November 2004, 22:31   #74
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Thnx Charles
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Old 30th November 2004, 22:59   #75
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it'll be back up soon
it won't stay like this forever
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Old 1st December 2004, 00:16   #76
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the point of "We get our hits from the media library", well people used the media library before it "pops open when you install winamp", back in winamp 2 days. things got slightly popular (just look at these forums back in THOSE days) but not booming. It will be found, and the idea of the alternative YP will be found if the people in the current one support it. There's already these people on linux who wanted a way to see the list, so a program was written.

Anyway, if people support it and dual-list, people will know that the alternative is there. Like, Every Show Sucks, starts putting little messages "Listed in ShoutCast AND Alternacast" or whatever between the shows. I don't know.

Winamp wasn't instantly on everyones computer, they found it, and the media library was there for a long time, and people told others via Word of Mouth (Blogs, look for nsv mentions in 2003, they exist) and thus that spread. When wa5 came out and it was pushing the media library, then it was seen by the masses. Who is to say it will not happen again, what with all the plugins so popular in the plugins section? These will come into play sir.


It takes a tragedy to unite a community. Noone liked my alt YP idea before this, then they found out the main one might go down sometimes. That's a shocker. What if google went down tomorrow? You have yahoo, msn, excite, lycos, endless others. Shoutcast? Nothing.

Originally posted by yeshuawatso :
...get Nullsoft to [accept] new moderators? ... election? ... If Inedible Bulk is the candidate, then I give my vote.
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Old 1st December 2004, 01:28   #77
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the point of "We get our hits from the media library", well people used the media library before it "pops open when you install winamp", back in winamp 2 days. things got slightly popular (just look at these forums back in THOSE days) but not booming. It will be found, and the idea of the alternative YP will be found if the people in the current one support it. There's already these people on linux who wanted a way to see the list, so a program was written.

<<

Anyway, if people support it and dual-list, people will know that the alternative is there. Like, Every Show Sucks, starts putting little messages "Listed in ShoutCast AND Alternacast" or whatever between the shows. I don't know.

<< Yep. We cannot have a single point of failure.

Winamp wasn't instantly on everyones computer, they found it, and the media library was there for a long time, and people told others via Word of Mouth (Blogs, look for nsv mentions in 2003, they exist) and thus that spread. When wa5 came out and it was pushing the media library, then it was seen by the masses. Who is to say it will not happen again, what with all the plugins so popular in the plugins section? These will come into play sir.

<< The tens of thousands of people who have been
<< watching .NSV files via winamp are undergoing
<< withdrawal symptoms right now.
<< They're foaming at the mouth. At this point in time
<< they'll install a plugin or anything else we ask them to.
<<


It takes a tragedy to unite a community. Noone liked my alt YP idea before this, then they found out the main one might go down sometimes. That's a shocker. What if google went down tomorrow? You have yahoo, msn, excite, lycos, endless others. Shoutcast? Nothing.


__________________
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Old 1st December 2004, 02:24   #78
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I admire your optimism, Bulk, and I also agree that there is nothing as powerful as the whole NSV system that is out there right now.

I think what you are saying is true for the vast majority of the TV streams. You have a community of people out there who religiously watch the NSV streams, and those people will do anything to get a YP so they can do their thing. Alot of these are savy porn watchers who have figured out that it is far better to watch a 15 second opening ad than it is to wait for clip downloads on some file-sharing network. The porn streams and pirated cartoons, by and large, are what has been driving Shoutcast video's popularity (that's why the biggest streams are mainly porn and sitcom episodes).

I don't want to seem like we got something that is different, but most of the days this month, when the YP was up, it was only our stream and Giga ETV that were non-porn in the top 10 streams. The real power of the Shoutcast YP is that there is content there that you can't get anywhere else.

Here's the key thing though... people like myself have a choice. Right now, our site is basically the only one in the world where you can watch Reggaeton videos. You can't even see these videos on TV in most of the world (which is ludacrous, go google "reggaeton" to see just how popular it is worldwide). Unfortunately, there are lots of choices out there in terms of formats to use. I actually like shoutcast, but if the YP stays down, I'd definitely move to another platform just to get a listing even on a minor YP associated with another program.

For someone like me who is actually able to use this technology in a non-porn commercial way, the YP was and is essentially the only reason that I use Shoutcast to serve the video (as opposed to, say, Steamcast). If the Shoutcast community is going to stay vibrant, then there has to be a look toward those of us who REALLY believe in Shoutcast and are out here putting our money where our mouth is. This is not a hobby for me.

So, I'm down for an alternative YP, just explain to me how the average, everyday, non-hardcore streamie is going to be turned on to my channel by the aternative YP (that isn't in the Media Library). It doesn't make sense that someone has to be looking at my channel to know that I am listed in a YP somewhere else (why would I want to direct him to another channel by putting him up on another YP?)

I am glad that the Media Library YP will go back up, and am not trying to sh*t on people's efforts, I'm just trying to inject a point of view, that, up until this time, wasn't a really big part of the conversation regarding NSV.

-------
Ameno
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Old 1st December 2004, 03:00   #79
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Ameno,

Dude... one of my people here in NY is a Reggaeton lover. She picked our Reggaeton stream and is going to do a nice little Reggaton dance later in the week. This is going to be a beautiful stream.

Maria's going to tear up that dance floor. You can her and her Reggaeton picks at http://www.jamaicans*****code/index.p...eggaeton-radio

Ameno... as soon as I get this streamlister crap to compile I want to check out your site.

The alternative YP we are building is going to be listed in the Media Library (smile). Of course it's just a backup to the original (which will eventually crash again).
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Old 1st December 2004, 08:33   #80
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i think you people are missing the point entirely.

your alternative YP will need people to download your plugin or visit your site to get there. most people dont do shit. they get winamp, they open up internet tv, and they see two streams listed and thats it.

With regards to ameno13's post about nullsoft being light handed right now, the shoutcast YP has been mostly taken over by aol streamops. I assume that they are the ones dealing with this issue.

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