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View Poll Results: Why has skinning begun to decline?
Publishing is to restrictive 0 0%
Making moderns skins is where its at but, its to difficult to deliver. 4 36.36%
We have made skinning an elitist activity and cannot bring in new blood. 1 9.09%
No reason to skin anymore as the great many skins already have effectively made it to hard to make new stuff. 4 36.36%
I'm in denial skinning is not declining. 2 18.18%
Voters: 11. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10th March 2008, 03:27   #1
garetjax
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Why skinning is dying? Your thoughts...

I wanted to start a post to perhaps help identify the notion that skinning is dying or at least is not as popular as it once was.

My thoughts:

1. Modern Skins
Are large and can be processor intensive.
Cannot be done simply or without alot of thought.
Are not easily adapted for others usage. (pro & con)

2. Classic Skins
Skins get removed as the program evolves (pro & con)
Though easily skinned they can be very confined.
Small Memory footprint and small filesize.

What this means to me is that there should be some bridge that could be established and perhaps the rules which are blocking so many skins are a bit to restrictive.

I keep thinking that skinning was so popular because, anyone can do it. We have effectively cut out the new talent and we as long time skinners seem to flame and smack around those that try for the first time. We give answers and have been for awhile that are essentially telling others that we are better than them and they shouldn't post such crap.

In short we have a community of people that cannot bring in new blood and have shortsighted the evolution of skinning as a result.

Those are just my opinions.

I'd love to hear more and others thoughts.

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Old 10th March 2008, 07:05   #2
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No monetary gain, only monetary gain that exists in skinning is ruled by tsf, unappreciative bastard users, no huge development in the engine, no real future career-wise, people aren't interested in changing their default skin since recent ones are so intelligently developed, most of the talented designers out there are too busy or too fucking lazy to learn to code.

Really the thing is, why waste your time on skinning when you can be making money doing other, more creative things.
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Old 10th March 2008, 08:52   #3
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[ ] The hip crowd jumped ship.

Also, it could be argued that skinned applications are an outdated concept from back when Windows itself couldn't be skinned.

Fuck this place.
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Old 10th March 2008, 09:06   #4
martin.deimos
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I've also seen this decline.
Once we've started Skin Consortium ( http://www.skinconsortium.com/index.php?page=home ) we got lots of proposals for modern skins. We worked through some of them and have published 18 modern skins (plus some classic and classicPro ones). the 19th is almost finished
But the interest of some designers to get their crap coded has declined as well. We always mention that they should try to convert their psds into a working XION skin. (http://xion.r2.com.au/). XION skins are based on just PSDs w named layers. we give them links to keyword references but they are too lazy to learn this. Hell I've worked through XION tutorial for one hour or so, and then i threw a quick skin together, w/o any knowledge of this before!
Skry, you might be right as well w/ the integeligent developed interfaces recent apps are shipped with. Look at WMP or Winamp. Both are shipped with extreme functional SUI interfaces with appealing graphics. OK, this is time to blame me and Taber

Garetjax, you're talking about a bridge between modern and classic?
Well, i will tell you that we at SC have been done a lot of work to etablish a ClassicPro skinning platform. It basically allows you to code SUI skins like classic ones, w/ just replacing bits of gfx and no further coding is needed, despite colordefinitions for ml/pl; see: http://cpro.skinconsortium.com/
We've even launched a Skinning Competition for it with $150 for the first place and $75 for the second one. Pieter posted it in the classic skin forum here as well. and all we got was flaming that this isn't a classic skin! http://forums.winamp.com/showthread....hreadid=287549
Maybe the ignorance of some has lead also to this big decline, i dunno

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Old 10th March 2008, 09:52   #5
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Personally, i don't really know why i've slowed down with skinning. I guess i just have other things to do but there was never a point where i thought "Right, lets cut down on the skinning then"
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Old 10th March 2008, 10:16   #6
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martin, nobody flamed you. It's called debate and it was the most active thread here in some time. If you want flaming, we could actually do that

Some people aren't going to like ClassicPro and if that thread was any indication, a lot of classic skinners aren't interested. It's life. No matter how many times you mention it, not everyone is going to be interested.

As for the original question:

I was in high school before. I'm a college student now. I just don't have the time anymore, not that I was producing anything of any real quality though.

I agree about the elitist thing, though.

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Old 10th March 2008, 10:50   #7
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A significant milestone in the question as to when skinning became less popular was the introduction of Winamp3 and the free-form skin engine.

Not that introducing a new form of skinning itself killed off interest, more so that fact that it was introduced and it was....

Very buggy
Piss poor documentation

The fact also that each time a new build of winamp got released something either broke in the skin engine, or something got fixed that rendered a lot of previously working 'work arounds' useless, I lost count of the amount of times I'd have to rebuild a skin because something code wise got changed, got sick to the back teeth of it in the end, things didn't improve any when Winamp5 came along, sure by all means fix things, but Jesus, please leave us the ability to use our workarounds, don't just break everything and be done with it! (invisible buttons I'm looking at you....)

Also the fact that the default skin that came with winamp 3, and to some extent even the default Winamp modern skins are hideously complicated buggers to understand , using those as , and I quote...

"Please feel free to use this skin as a reference point to build your new Winamp5 skins."

Was a huge mistake, I could almost hear peoples heads exploding as they tried to figure out how things ticked on the default modern skin, mine was one of them.

Ok, so classic skins stayed the same, so what happened there?, again, I see another fundamental mistake from Nullsoft here, anyone remember the splitting of the site between modern and classic?, great idea but suddenly you took away the ability for people to easily find your classic skin, sure they were still there, but isn't it well known most people can't be bothered moving around web pages, they go to the bits they know, so the chances of people clicking into what effectively was a whole new site, was low, I know my download rates fell through the floor for classic once the site was split, while at the same time my modern download rates went through the roof.

And then just for kicks, the classic skin spec went and done changed, not by a massive amount, but enough I think for people to wonder if was worth updating all those old old skins just to show the new fancy window, I know I wondered myself if it was really worth it, I pushed myself to re-configure all mine just 'cos I'm a sad completists.

Sadly for me, I've totally lost interest in skinning, it's just as fun as it used to be for me, and I think some of that is also down to the community becoming more and more fragmented, on one side you have classic skinners who are slowly dwindling away to other things and interests on the other side you have modern skinners, don't even get me started here, they either fall into two sections, super whizz bang artists who think they have created the next mona lisa ( who can forget some of the flame wars and 100 page threads from the modern forums) and then the coders who think that you must write 10 million lines of code to make anything approaching a good interface, both of whom tend to look down their noses at outsiders.

I would have hoped by now we would have had a community of both classic and modern skinners kicking out great work, with a group of crossover people who can do both, but sadly we seem to have got the opposite, and that goes back to point one here, winamp 3 and the freeform engine....

It's now what, 7 years since that was launched, maybe even more, I forget and do we still have a stable platform to work with?, the answer would seem to be still no as still bug fixes and changes are being made.

Do we still have anywhere near decent documentation? NSDN was last updated in 2002, token updates here and there, but nothing concrete, mind you , the same could be levelled at other players documentation as well and if it wasn't for these forums being here, then there would likely be no reference to any aspect of skinning.

Someone mentioned money back there, I'm sure if AOL had been able to charge everyone a dollar per skin download you would have seen love and attention lavished on the development like no other, but as it's effectively a free product, what chance ?, it's noticeable that on-line support for Winamp Pro has been beefed up somewhat, support your paying customers and all that.
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Old 10th March 2008, 11:50   #8
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I’ll be happy to update the NSDN Modern skinning pages.. but no one ask so ye. There’s also a wiki for your needs with most of the updated stuff there:
http://wiki.skinconsortium.com/

I’ll vote for:
- Its difficult to create modernskins … &
- Theres already so many skins out there

The reason the classic forum is so quiet is because people ask questions in forums… but classic skins is so easy to understand… and there are so many out there to look at so you don’t really need the help from other skinners.

Now why is the modern section so quiet these days?
1: I started with Classic skins but they was always just MS Paint ones… I did it because I found out by accident that a wsz is actually a zip file… When Winamp 3 came along I first saw it on the site itself and then I started to create my own… although I never finished most of them… I made a few lame ones like WMP8+9… Didn’t know anything about coding. I didn’t even know what a forum was back then. I first started using the forum in 2006, nearly 3 years later when I finally made my first skin that I could feel proud of (NMP10). So basically the NSDN need to be updated because most people don’t even use the forums. When they know the basics they might start digging in the forums to find goodies.

2: Why is Mr Jones a moderator in the Modern skins sections if the only thing he does is tell everyone that he don’t skin anymore and don’t even use modern skins? This is a problem imho and I think he must be kicked to mod just the Classic section. I’m sure someone else can do a better job. You get nice admins like WildroseWally, DrO, DjEgg, Nunzio390, …ext…. then you get MrJones… always negative and not really of any help here.

3: The main reason however is… tada!... Skinconsortium… just think how active the forums would have been if the top 20 users there had to post everything in the modern section here @ Winamp.com?

Quote:
then the coders who think that you must write 10 million lines of code to make anything approaching a good interface, both of whom tend to look down their noses at outsiders
In a normal skin you can create a cool one with basic coding.... but with a sui skin you'll need a few lines of code. I’ll take that your referring to me here.. ever since the Azenis 2 upload debacle you had it in for modern skinners that use lots of code. So what if we use lots of code. It makes for a nice easy to use interface.

Now I know MrJones know best because he is very high up with the Nullsoft admins but people want to use Classic skins because Winamp is just way more responsive and loads faster. Now whats stopping Nullsoft from creating a ClassicPro-like skinning format that use the same engine as the classic skins but dont allow for freeform. This will mean instant loadable SUI skins. SUI skins is the future. Newby users understand them easier and thats why all the major players have them.

PS: I agree with MrJones and the $ per skin... would be very nice!

ClassicPro© v2.01 : This plugin allows you to use cPro skins in Winamp. ClassicPro skins are all SUI skins and loads very quickly. ClassicPro skins is even easier to skin than Winamp Classic skins. A new layout have been added since version 2.
Download ClassicPro© ==== cPro Skins ==== ClassicPro© Homepage ==== SC Forums
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Old 10th March 2008, 11:58   #9
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I volunteered also a long time back to update NSDN, it came to naught mainly because things were always changing, 'wait, wait wait' I was always told

Quote:
Originally posted by pjn123



In a normal skin you can create a cool one with basic coding.... but with a sui skin you'll need a few lines of code. I’ll take that your referring to me here.. ever since the Azenis 2 upload debacle you had it in for modern skinners that use lots of code. So what if we use lots of code. It makes for a nice easy to use interface.

No, not especially you, in fact I use a TON of code myself when making skins, I make no attempt to hide that, what I don't like is the assumption that you have to have loads of code to make it good, which as you plainly point out , isn't the case. There are lots of examples of this however from long before you even registered on these forum, go have a history lesson



Quote:
Originally posted by pjn123
2: Why is Mr Jones a moderator in the Modern skins sections if the only thing he does is tell everyone that he don’t skin anymore and don’t even use modern skins? This is a problem imho and I think he must be kicked to mod just the Classic section. I’m sure someone else can do a better job. You get nice admins like WildroseWally, DrO, DjEgg, Nunzio390, …ext…. then you get MrJones… always negative and not really of any help here.
Geeze, that was uncalled for I think, thanks for the vote of confidence there. I do have some news for you however, just because your name is at the top of a forum dosn't mean you exclusively just moderate that forum. All moderators on these forums are global and can moderate any forum they like, the names at the top are a legacy throwback when that wasn't the case, it also provides a nice place for the 'report this post' emails to go to should anyone wish to do that, but thanks for noticing the 8 years worth of work and support I've put in, much appreciated dude.


I know you don't especially like me, and to quite honest I don't really care if you do or don't, that's not what moderators are here for, they are here to ensure the community dosn't descend into some kiddies playground type area, full of spit and bile, not you may not like that, but that's how it is.
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Old 10th March 2008, 12:36   #10
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Basically we want money for our skins! $0.01 per skin would even be enough
We're the ones that helps Winamp generate money via ads.

Had no problem with the pre'07 MrJones... he was nice man that was always willing to see potential and didn't diss everything he didn't like... but the new MrJones seems to be always negative... just look at the ClassicPro competition. We just made a notice that.. "hey you classic skinners.. here is something you might like to create a few new pics for and win money... then he started with the negative attitude and even said something like… “I sure as fuck don’t need the money”… Something like that wasn’t needed.
Just seems that you don’t want to do the moderator job these days…I’m grateful for all the mods that keep the forum in order the last 2years I was a user here. I sure don’t wanna do it… (although I would like to edit my post when I update something l8r.)

Don’t know the forum pre 2006… but I picked up some stuff here and there… sounds like there was a few flame wars in the skinning forums before my time (if anyone want to point me to a few juicy ones )

ClassicPro© v2.01 : This plugin allows you to use cPro skins in Winamp. ClassicPro skins are all SUI skins and loads very quickly. ClassicPro skins is even easier to skin than Winamp Classic skins. A new layout have been added since version 2.
Download ClassicPro© ==== cPro Skins ==== ClassicPro© Homepage ==== SC Forums
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Old 10th March 2008, 12:58   #11
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I see potential in everything and will always encourge people to come to the table with a fresh design.

I didn't diss your cpro thingy, in fact I even downloaded and installed it this morning, my point being, not everyone is motivated by the fact they could with a few $$$, I'm sure not, why would I be, I earn hugely in the real world to start with, a competition to win a few bucks more wouldn't make the first difference to me, I spend more than that on evening out! I'm sorry you don't approve of my turn of phrase, but I speak as I find, I'm not one to shut up and just tell people what they want to hear.

What would entice me to enter is if something piqued my curiosty bone, something really needs to leap out to grab my attention these days, sure I'll be looking over cpro at somepoint, I've already picked over the bones of it this morning, but there isn't really anything in it that would interest me , if I want to make a low resource modern skin, then I'd either dig out one of my unfinished designs or start something over.

You sure make a lot of assumptions about me and if I want to continue moderating, the truth is I do, because I enjoy it, yes, even moving 20 odd threads of hardcore porn links,however if you want me to join in on a skinning competition, come up with something that'll tax the old brain cells a bit, a prime example of this was Luigis Monochrome skin competition from a couple of years ago, even if it was just plain old classic skinning, it made a lot of people get up and think about how they could make a skin just out of two colours, including me!

Oh jesus, flame wars in modern skin?, crikey where to start, go look up the user names adil or neko, they are probably the best and worst examples of how some people think skinning was better than sex or god, their legendary multi page development threads for skins that often came to nothing or poo pooing of other peoples ideas because they didn't conform to their own just beggars belief.

/Actually, I would guess most of them were deleted as they turned into pure out and out hate filled rants, even to the point where little gangs of users, including an ex mod, took it upon themselves to think it was funny to hack at the forums and screw around with peoples settings and stuff.

Not good mojo at all and a huge load of fall out for everyone !
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Old 10th March 2008, 13:17   #12
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pjn, I can't help but think that you're just looking for a fight.

You wrote a program, great! But, there is no need to try and shove it down everyone's throats. You posted the link and people that are interested now know about it. They'll either use it or not. If your intentions are really just to help classic skinners transition into modern skins, you're done!

But you haven't stopped, so I'm curious as to what your intentions really are.

There is no need to go around insulting Jones' moderating duties. From what you've posted in this forum in the last few weeks, his take on modern skinners seems about right.

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Old 10th March 2008, 17:39   #13
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mmmm....back to the actual topic, if i have time i will finish a couple of designs that i have for the classic.

as for cPro, i shall only be making one skin for that, so saying that skinning is dead or dying might not be the case, it just depends on who you ask....
its like a lot of things.

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Old 10th March 2008, 20:30   #14
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k_rock923, you're right we've debated.
but the main thing you gave the cPro team to understand was: "I am a classic skinner - i won't look into anything else and this is the wrong forum for your notice."

I must quote gretjax:
"We have effectively cut out the new talent and we as long time skinners seem to flame and smack around those that try for the first time. We give answers and have been for awhile that are essentially telling others that we are better than them and they shouldn't post such crap."

right, we're talking about why skinning is in decline. Perhaps the answer lies in the rough tone towards someone who might to ask something here in the forums.

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Old 10th March 2008, 21:07   #15
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I completely agree. I argued that point yesterday: http://forums.winamp.com/showthread....hreadid=288204

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Old 10th March 2008, 21:51   #16
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Wow, I am really impressed and very much loving the contributions from all of you. I believe strongly in the idea as of late that having a great community means throwing out your notion of what is the "standard".

As for CPro and other applications I am all up for their usage. If the driving facet behind these applications is to make things easier and allow our not so creative brothers and sisters a chance at changing their winamp skin to a jpg picture of J-Lo then so be it.

I think personally and this is only an opinion which is in no way reflecting anyone other than my self and observations through the countless years of skinning; is that we as a group tend to flow and gravitate towards the elitist attitude, this does not help us to draw that new blood. There are many points that likely do not need repeating...

I even see that in the posting(s) above mind you... From the posts I see userA has a program written to further the concept of skinning and userB doesn't think it is necessary or wonders about the intentions of the program. In the sense of this we've effectively castrated userA for trying to help. (I've done the same previously - to many posting now.)

Of note: I could care less if I make one red cent of any skin I publish. I don't skin to make a buck but make a skin to make my idea's into a reality. Creation for the sake of creation allows me the knowledge and skills to apply to different arena's (web design, development, app design and development). This is me...and I'm only one person but, I feel that perhaps there could be an option to make your skin a paid for download skin or perhaps, apart of some AOL Premium Library.

In this model everyone makes out. .25 for the author and .25 for AOL. .50 per skin @ 1MILLION Downloads = 500.000 USD (who could complain?)

I really believe there needs to be an incentive to bring the skinners and designs back.

I appreciate all the answers...and look to read more.

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Old 13th March 2008, 01:06   #17
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one thing can be done..

what do you think of the idea of giving base image (i.e.)give the skeleton/bg of the main,eq,playlist and give oppotunity for new or old skinners???
let them figure out how the skins turn out to be..but this has a problem though...many versions of the same skin and similar looking skins might be submitted...so until the skinner puts his imagination into it...this will be a bad idea
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Old 13th March 2008, 01:13   #18
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also it might be that marketing..the way skins have reached winamp users is not that fancy or attractive..for example I used to hear music in media player.I dnld winamp,then searched for some good skins,but it took me long to find some works of art...but when I came to the forum and saw what the people here are doing,I wanted to make skins...a good example of great way of advertising,attracting people can be found here:
http://www.videocopilot.net/products.html

see the features of the products..you can see that even if one does not have any idea on what the product is,he/she will be interested more..
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Old 13th March 2008, 04:07   #19
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I my self stopped skinning for a while because I just lost interest, I was not good with graphics or code and never got much of the feedback that I wanted to hear. So I forgot about it for a few years and now I'm at it again after teaching my self a few things.

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Old 13th March 2008, 16:25   #20
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doing other stuff like gaming and UT3 mapping and im not that good with creating stuff out of nothing. i can edit existing stuff, but cant draw/generate new stuff that looks cool.
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Old 15th March 2008, 18:48   #21
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You know I'm not that good either...Graphics and design are and have never been my strong suit. However, I partner with others really well and draw from their strengths. I may have an idea of something that I want to present and I find someone that can deliver that idea.

An example of this can be found here in the forums. Some of the technically challenging pieces for me are accomplished by someone with alot better experience in curves, shadows and similar.

Through my working with individuals I have grown and my design and creative juices flow more. As a result of that collobarative process I have been able to think outside of my own limitations.

As for this notion of skinning and its loss of skinners I'm still in the boat of modern skins are too difficult, and we are a bunch of a elitist knobs.

Honestly, my day job is programming and I have a hard time sitting for another minute coding something else that I won't be paid for. I design classic skins as a matter of relaxation and seeing my idea come to view. If I could create a design in photoshop // paint shop or what have you and that design were picked up automatically by a winamp and included framed animations. I would be tickled and likely would move to more freeform skinning. However, it seems at present the idea is to over emphasize programming.

As jones had stated millions of lines of code where really only a few lines would be needed. I however, think it would even be better that a standard script be setup to connect to the raw source image (psd/psp) read it and use the native functions of that file format to display advanced features and animations....

Call me crazy but, I think it very possible to do so.

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Old 15th March 2008, 21:00   #22
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another thing is i dont have good ideas what to make a skin out of. or i start and it gets boring as stuff keeps not working. i have a pretty nice modern skin that i never finnidhed cuz the playlist frame was almost impossible to do for me and i was not able to find the matching colors for the ML text. now i have a new computer and never looked again in my backup folder where this skin is lying.
and as im really getting into Map Creating for UT3, i dont find the time to finnish the skin.
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Old 15th March 2008, 22:21   #23
pjn123
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Quote:
Originally posted by garetjax
I however, think it would even be better that a standard script be setup to connect to the raw source image (psd/psp) read it and use the native functions of that file format to display advanced features and animations....

Call me crazy but, I think it very possible to do so.
Xion player works like that:
http://xion.r2.com.au/index.php?page=home

Not that I'll like that... because I suck with gfx
But it will sure make for some very cool skins imho.

Isn't there something called Psd2Wal somewhere? Haven't tested it but maybe thats sort of like this?

ClassicPro© v2.01 : This plugin allows you to use cPro skins in Winamp. ClassicPro skins are all SUI skins and loads very quickly. ClassicPro skins is even easier to skin than Winamp Classic skins. A new layout have been added since version 2.
Download ClassicPro© ==== cPro Skins ==== ClassicPro© Homepage ==== SC Forums
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Old 16th March 2008, 19:34   #24
P$ycHo™
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yea, that would be nice imo. but does it have to be psd? i want xcf!
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Old 16th March 2008, 21:43   #25
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GIMP can save to a psd last time I checked.

Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway.
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Old 17th March 2008, 02:26   #26
garetjax
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Yes, there was a psd2wal converter however, it basically cut the files to png (each layer - and used them as they were named within the layer.) It never went much further in development than that.

I know sonique (v2) in its final stages before it was pulled used psd formats for its skin. The best thing about psd/psp layered images is that you can work from a very small size and include everything. I once saw a skin for sonique (extremely advanced) - that was 300k psd. That was all that the skin contained very small layers with a background.

Now, i have seen/used xion and do not recommend it as the overall features available to it are quite limited and its playback of certain file formats peaked my processor usage. It certainly not a mature product yet...though, some potential can be said of it. However, that is true of winamp as well. I think they can leave everything in place and just implement a psd/psp resource filter for that choose to use it.

A Good Example:
Main Group
- Background
- Glass Fx
- Shadow
- Numbers
- Text
- Button Play
- Button Pause
- Button On Play
- Button On Pause
- Button Off Play
- Button Off Pause

Etc Etc.

Each group being each window that was to be displayed. and for those that wanted to have the other window slide Use an animation Frame (as many as needed.)

For those designer's that just wish to steer away from coding it could be done quite effectively and would present a simplified way for us to get skins out. Now, lets say they upgrade the engine...the psd format can for example be readily and easily added upon allowing a great deal more flexibility that reverse engineering 500k worth of xml/maki.

w00t.

But, fat chance ... maybe I can reach ole justin frankel and ask for him to build a kickass psd/psp plugin.

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Old 20th March 2008, 03:30   #27
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Thank You all for your insights and votes...Lets hope that somewhere the application gods have heard and mayhap will begin the beating of drums.

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Old 22nd March 2008, 20:58   #28
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I've been thinking that for myself I will be communicating more and working with others in collaboration so that maybe we can each explore design avenues that we did not have from the others perspective. I also believe that by doing this and making it public we can as a group become more interested in the idea of skinning as well as show new skinners what it takes to truly create a skin package. Though, classic skins are by no means as easy as modern at least this may bring a few more to the table and hopefully show that we are not all elitist(s) <sp?>

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Old 22nd March 2008, 21:00   #29
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I agree, I'll try to get some of the old schoolers back here for a few collabs later.

SEX APPEAL UP IN HERE!
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Old 24th April 2008, 18:30   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by pjn123
2: Why is Mr Jones a moderator in the Modern skins sections if the only thing he does is tell everyone that he don’t skin anymore and don’t even use modern skins? This is a problem imho and I think he must be kicked to mod just the Classic section. I’m sure someone else can do a better job. You get nice admins like WildroseWally, DrO, DjEgg, Nunzio390, …ext…. then you get MrJones… always negative and not really of any help here.
that made my day, funny as hell
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Old 24th April 2008, 19:21   #31
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Hey ampy, I have a sudden urge to pop a cheese helmet on my head and to eat all day.

Hows it going
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Old 25th April 2008, 00:14   #32
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Good grief, where have you been? You really need to visit more often.

"We are all faced with a series of great opportunities brilliantly disguised as impossible situations." ~ Charles R. Swindoll

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Old 25th April 2008, 03:37   #33
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Ampy can be contacted regularly through MSN/Email if you have been lucky enough to ask for direct communication. I'm not one of those fortunate enough to know him however. Hi there Ampy, I'm Garet. I like beef. LOL

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Old 25th April 2008, 06:19   #34
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[witty ampy comment]

I'm sorry, the cheese helmet stuff has already been taken and I've got nothing else. Um, I was definitely using Liquid Paradise earlier this week, does that count?
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Old 25th April 2008, 06:37   #35
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i've named a skin after someone here ...

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Old 27th April 2008, 08:48   #36
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on the Mr. Jones topic...

People, moderators/admins are here for a purpose regardless of past/present/future ambiguity (sp) - I feel that Mr. Jones through the years that I have known him has done a bang up job. Though, honestly I've had my own run in's as well. More or less when my attitude caused problems for the both of us. You must understand however, from his point of view: potentially thousands of posts per week with ninety percent repeat requests, nonsensical idiocy and not to mention sullied pride of creative type people. (Skinners).

Though, I often disagree with him or his decisions I ultimately have faith in his administration and moderation of the forums for which he controls.

The comments I witness here are a bit shortsighted. I would say some other things but, this is not what this thread is for.

I see lots of failures in the later code of most skins although, I haven't coded my own so perhaps I'm being a bit of a hipocrit...however, that being said I feel compelled to say that I have only stumbled across 2 modern skins that I actually used for longer than one day and enjoyed their simplicity, speed and design.

The rest seem bloated, huge and cludgy...(see previous posts) - though pretty.

Pretty is good but, pretty and functional seem to be what users truly want and like.

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