Winamp 5.6 Rating Implementation Discussion (split from the 5.6 release thread)

[MrSinatra]

if you rate in windows 7 / wmp12 FIRST, and THEN apply RG, i believe that would be ok. however, if you rate AFTER rg was applied, it will corrupt the RG frame, without you knowing it, unless you actually check the values, which now will have letters instead of db values in it. recalculating RG will fix the corruption, but u need to do it for the WHOLE ALBUM, if its part of an album, and you have to know it happened. i periodically sort RG values column, and look for it in the middle of the list. nasty, ugly bug.

[MrSinatra]

i just wanted to bump this again to remind the devs:

please add the %rate% "atom" (tag/frame) support to mp4 / m4a files like mp3tag / twonky do.

see previous post for details.

(also, would that apply to aac as well? and how are ratings stored in wma?)

[DrO]

Originally Posted by MrSinatra

also, would that apply to aac as well?

raw aac files don't support tagging, though people have probably tried putting ID3 tags on them or something like that. the only viable way would be having it as a m4a file (which then comes back to the other part that you're bumping).

Originally Posted by MrSinatra

and how are ratings stored in wma?

wma should be following whatever it is that MS has decided for it - am sure that was all implemented when the main feature support as added in.

-daz

[MrSinatra]

Originally Posted by DrO

raw aac files don't support tagging, though people have probably tried putting ID3 tags on them or something like that. the only viable way would be having it as a m4a file (which then comes back to the other part that you're bumping).

ah, right. ok, so for tagging, aac = mp4/m4a. gtk.

just fyi, afaict, 0-100 is the range twonky uses for the %rate% atom/frame

i would really like to be able to add ratings to the tags of those kinds of files.

Originally Posted by DrO

wma should be following whatever it is that MS has decided for it - am sure that was all implemented when the main feature support as added in.

-daz

well, i only have a handful, but i rated some and they do seem to write to the tag. i do view file info and on the advanced tab (which u can't edit) i see:

WM/SharedUserRating 99

which seems to equal 5 stars, if indeed that is the correct frame. i just wanted to verify this is correct, and know what range its using... my guess is it mimics WMP, but 99 seemed unusual to me.

[MrSinatra]

Originally Posted by MrSinatra

i just wanted to bump this again to remind the devs:

please add the %rate% "atom" (tag/frame) support to mp4 / m4a files like mp3tag / twonky do.

see previous post for details.

post 41. i am pretty sure the %rate% atom values in twonky/mp3tag are 0-100, just like how winamp does vorbis/flac.

[deed02392]

I made a fun video about the ratings implementation in Winamp 5.6+

http://www.youtube.com/embed/Tgpr6rSVPMI

[MrSinatra]

Originally Posted by deed02392

I made a fun video about the ratings implementation in Winamp 5.6+

http://www.youtube.com/embed/Tgpr6rSVPMI

i think its great that you made a video, i don't want this to sound like i'm crapping on it, but honestly i think you should take it down and redo it, b/c its just wrong and demonstrates things poorly.

for instance, i think its a bad idea to send users into the ini file, when the pref exists as a simple checkbox.

also, winamp uses different scales based on format, or more precisely, tag type. id3 uses POPM, which uses a 0-255 scale by spec, and that is what windows does. as far as i know, zero does NOT = 1 star, which you say at ~2:45 in.

if POPM exists with no value or zero, or POPM doesn't exist at all, (it makes no difference, b/c in all 3 cases then), in winamp it looks unrated. if POPM=1 or higher, then in winamp it will have one or more stars.

i'm not sure what exact range winamp is using, but WMP works this way, and i think WMP even does "fractions" of stars.

FLAC/Vorbis meanwhile, uses a 0-100 system, where 20=1 star.

i'm not sure applying ratings to flacs actually stops them as percetably as id3s does.

and after you turn the pref on, the easy way to apply ratings is to just leave the rating as is, add the ratings column to any smartview u use, sort by the column, click the first file, scroll to the last file of the same rating, hold shift, click the last file, and then simply click the same rating star in the ratings column. much quicker and easier.

[DrO]

preferences -> media library -> library options -> Check "Save ratings to file for compatible formats (default: off)" is the preferences option to do it (a lot of users seem to freak out at having to edit config files as a fyi even though your video seems to be aimed at the more tech savy person it seems).

also making a selection and using the right-click menu would have been far quicker to select those items rather than clicking each item (that's one annoying mouse-click you've got).

-daz

[gull_fish]

I hope I'm not adding to a dead thread or issue, but I'd like to change how Winamp works in this same way as MrSinatra seems to, at least in a basic sense. After losing all my ratings from a fresh format and OS install, I was quite upset, as it takes time to tag to individual tastes a large library. After reading these forums, I see I was using an old version that didn't update the file's POPM tag, but used a Winamp specific tag. And, it appears that the latest version of Winamp is supposed to write ratings to POPM instead, or at least have the setting in preferences to change that. But I am having no success with it either. It's ratings do not update the POPM tag, and I can find no where in preferences where I might set it to do so. Can anyone help me here please?

[gull_fish]

Pardon me, I do see that DrO's last post in this thread indicates where in the options to have Winamp update the file's tag. I've tried this, and Winamp does update the file's tag. But it appears Winamp does not read from that same tag. Is there a way to make Winamp read from that tag too? More gradations would be nice, but I will gladly live with the 1-5 as viewed from Windows, and from Winamp. However, reading from and writing to that same tag in both Windows and Winamp is highly desirable. Is there a way to make Winamp read from the file's tag too?

[MrSinatra]

Originally Posted by gull_fish

I hope I'm not adding to a dead thread or issue, but I'd like to change how Winamp works in this same way as MrSinatra seems to, at least in a basic sense. After losing all my ratings from a fresh format and OS install, I was quite upset, as it takes time to tag to individual tastes a large library.

i love beating dead horses.

what u need to know, is that ratings can be stored in a files tag and the winamp DB, but also can be stored in ONLY the winamp DB. for reasons i do not comprehend or agree with, thats unfortunately the default behavior.

however, u could have either gotten the ratings into the tags, or used the winamp backup tool to backup the DB and other things. either would have saved you.

Originally Posted by gull_fish

After reading these forums, I see I was using an old version that didn't update the file's POPM tag, but used a Winamp specific tag.

incorrect. there is no winamp specific tag. what there is, is a winamp DB made from scans of your files and their tags. that is where the rating was.

Originally Posted by gull_fish

And, it appears that the latest version of Winamp is supposed to write ratings to POPM instead, or at least have the setting in preferences to change that. But I am having no success with it either. It's ratings do not update the POPM tag, and I can find no where in preferences where I might set it to do so. Can anyone help me here please?

the pref exists and u seem to have found it:

Originally Posted by gull_fish

Pardon me, I do see that DrO's last post in this thread indicates where in the options to have Winamp update the file's tag. I've tried this, and Winamp does update the file's tag. But it appears Winamp does not read from that same tag.

incorrect, at least in my usage. winamp both writes and reads the ratings i make with winamp to my files, as long as they are id3/mp3/wma/flac/vorbis type files, and the pref is turned on. (to be precise, it always reads them, but only writes them to file with the pref on)

Originally Posted by gull_fish

Is there a way to make Winamp read from that tag too? More gradations would be nice, but I will gladly live with the 1-5 as viewed from Windows, and from Winamp. However, reading from and writing to that same tag in both Windows and Winamp is highly desirable. Is there a way to make Winamp read from the file's tag too?

1-5 is unfortunately the industry standard. i would have liked 1-7, but such is life.

do not use windows to write the tags, as windows has documented bugs that foul up your tags.

and again, winamp does read and write properly ratings to tags in my usage.

[gull_fish]

Ahh. Thank you. I am very ignorant of these matters, so I'm glad you're fond of flogging the dead My mistake regarding where Winamp stores the ratings by default, which is as you say a db, not a Winamp tag. Unfortunately, the format and re-install of the OS was preceeded by an unexpected problem on the OS partition, which did not contain my audio files, and I wasn't even aware that Winamp didn't save the ratings with the file's tags. I was rather pissed and dismayed to see it all gone when I got everything running again. I did find the setting, as I said, to save ratings to the file's tag, after reading this thread. Now when I change the rating from Winamp, I see that change in Windows. But when I change the rating from Windows, and then run Winamp, Winamp does not display what I'd changed it to, but the rating I'd set previously from Winamp. So it's a bit of a pickle. Winamp appears to save to the tag, but not read from it.

Forgive me, but you wrote two things that seem somewhat at odds with one another:
1.
"what u need to know, is that ratings can be stored in a files tag and the winamp DB, but also can be stored in ONLY the winamp DB. for reasons i do not comprehend or agree with, thats unfortunately the default behavior."
2.
"to be precise, it always reads them, but only writes them to file with the pref on"

The first paragraph says rating can be stored in db and the file tag, and also only in the db, which is the default setting. The second paragraph says it always read from the file tag, but will write to it only with the preference set to do so. If it always reads them from the file, and if one didn't change the default preference, and did change the rating from Winamp, then Winamp would read the file's tag, which would not contain the changed rating because it's in the db, not the file. I hope that made sense, and if that's correct and it's true, that seems like odd behaviour for the program. That wasn't what I experienced with the previous Winamp I was using, as it was reading it's own db, not from the files, which apparently had no updated POPM tags. I suppose it's possible it was reading from the file, but displaying only from it's own db. But that would be odd too.

Anyway, I do appreciate your help on this MrSinatra. Any idea why a rating change in Windows is not reflected in Winamp?

Thank you.

[MrSinatra]

Originally Posted by gull_fish

Ahh. Thank you. I am very ignorant of these matters, so I'm glad you're fond of flogging the dead My mistake regarding where Winamp stores the ratings by default, which is as you say a db, not a Winamp tag. Unfortunately, the format and re-install of the OS was preceeded by an unexpected problem on the OS partition, which did not contain my audio files, and I wasn't even aware that Winamp didn't save the ratings with the file's tags. I was rather pissed and dismayed to see it all gone when I got everything running again. I did find the setting, as I said, to save ratings to the file's tag, after reading this thread. Now when I change the rating from Winamp, I see that change in Windows. But when I change the rating from Windows, and then run Winamp, Winamp does not display what I'd changed it to, but the rating I'd set previously from Winamp. So it's a bit of a pickle. Winamp appears to save to the tag, but not read from it.

first, i think winamp should save ratings to tags by default, but unless i buy the company i doubt that will happen. but its such an obvious thing to me, so we agree on that.

for things you rate via windows, winamp needs to then rescan your files, and then refresh its ML view, and then the change[s] you made with windows would be seen, guaranteed, but it is extremely silly to use windows to rate files, given that its so buggy doing so. just use winamp, problem solved.

Originally Posted by gull_fish

Forgive me, but you wrote two things that seem somewhat at odds with one another:
1.
"what u need to know, is that ratings can be stored in a files tag and the winamp DB, but also can be stored in ONLY the winamp DB. for reasons i do not comprehend or agree with, thats unfortunately the default behavior."
2.
"to be precise, it always reads them, but only writes them to file with the pref on"

The first paragraph says rating can be stored in db and the file tag, and also only in the db, which is the default setting. The second paragraph says it always read from the file tag, but will write to it only with the preference set to do so. If it always reads them from the file, and if one didn't change the default preference, and did change the rating from Winamp, then Winamp would read the file's tag, which would not contain the changed rating because it's in the db, not the file. I hope that made sense, and if that's correct and it's true, that seems like odd behaviour for the program. That wasn't what I experienced with the previous Winamp I was using, as it was reading it's own db, not from the files, which apparently had no updated POPM tags. I suppose it's possible it was reading from the file, but displaying only from it's own db. But that would be odd too.

they are not at all at odds with each other. if there is no tag / no value for ratings in the file, then there is nothing affirmative to overwrite a value present in the ML DB. the DB then remains unchanged b/c nothing read in the file precipitates a change.

Originally Posted by gull_fish

Anyway, I do appreciate your help on this MrSinatra. Any idea why a rating change in Windows is not reflected in Winamp?

Thank you.

b/c winamp needs to rescan then refresh its view first. why would it instantly know what you did in another app anyway?

[Fla_Panther]

Hi all,

My turn to beat the dead horse. I've also had a hellish time with ratings while moving around. I've used WinAmp 2.9 forever, only upgraded to 5.6 within the last month when I discovered it now does smart playlists (or smart views, as you call them). I'd moved from iTunes to Media Monkey a year or so ago, in the process I lost about 3 years of work because I didn't know that iTunes didn't store its ratings in the MP3 file. I tried MM for a year and got fed up with it because it kept corrupting my ratings, meaning my last year of work has been a waste. Hoping WinAmp will finally let me (a) keep track of my ratings, and (b) let me use smart lists. .. but first I have to get my ratings into WinAmp.

I seem to be having the same problem gull_fish was. When I import all my media into WinAmp the ML claims I only have 1 song that's rated 5 stars. I know it's closer to 100-200. In searching WinAmp's forums I first found this thread:

http://forums.winamp.com/showthread.php?t=157422

Specifically, I tried out the MP3 Rating Friend program, and it does highlight the files where WinAmp's ratings do not match the rating in the file. Screenshot here:

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b1...ff/Ratings.png

I've tried your suggestion of clicking the check box to allow WinAmp to write ratings to the file, told WinAmp to rescan the folder, then closed and restarted WinAmp, still no change. Any other suggestions?

Oh, BTW, before finding these two threads I'd found another post somewhere that suggested going into MM, then using one of the unused ID3 fields to write a number 1-5, then look for those in WinAmp and rate accordingly. I tried doing that with both the Producer and Composer ID3 fields and in both cases WinAmp's Producer and Composer fields were blank. For the heck of it, I then used WinAmp to set all those fields to 0, then went back to MM ... the 1-5 ratings in MM were still there. The 1-5 ratings are also able to be seen if I go to the file itself and view properties. So as far as I can tell WinAmp is NOT reading from the file as you've described (???)

Thanks!

[MrSinatra]

ok, one thing at a time...

first of all, ratings in the winamp DB, and ratings in the files tag, are not necessarily the same thing.

if you have imported ratings from some other app into winamp, they are only in the DB. they won't be in the files tag until you turn on the pref to save the rating to tags in winamp, AND RERATE THE FILE. obviously, the easy way to do that is to sort by ratings column and rate per star section, using the shift key to select all the same star then rerate.

what app are you importing ratings from? itunes or MM or something else? what file formats are you using?

[Fla_Panther]

I understand that file ratings and DB ratings are not the same. The problem is that I need the ratings from the file to be imported into the DB. The ratings in the DB are not correct at the moment.

As shown in the second link in my previous post, I have a number of songs that I've rated as 5-stars but WinAmp's DB only shows them as 4-stars.

I would say that I'm trying to import the ratings from Media Monkey, but really the correct ratings are visible in both MM and Windows Explorer.

[DrO]

an example file will help to determine what is going on rather than a random screenshot which has no relation to things.

-daz

[Fla_Panther]

You want me to upload the file itself? Or a SS of the file properties?

[MrSinatra]

Originally Posted by Fla_Panther

I understand that file ratings and DB ratings are not the same. The problem is that I need the ratings from the file to be imported into the DB. The ratings in the DB are not correct at the moment.

maybe, maybe not. in my usage, winamp does things correctly.

this is why i asked what file formats, etc... trust me, i know ratings.

Originally Posted by Fla_Panther

As shown in the second link in my previous post, I have a number of songs that I've rated as 5-stars but WinAmp's DB only shows them as 4-stars.

your second link means nothing. the app you are using to show the rating is not well known.

the important thing to grasp is that "stars" are just an interpretation of the data. so eg. with id3/POPM, the range of data is 0-255 that gets boiled down to 0-5 stars.

Originally Posted by Fla_Panther

I would say that I'm trying to import the ratings from Media Monkey, but really the correct ratings are visible in both MM and Windows Explorer.

it would be easier if you would just answer whats asked. there's no doubt i can help you, but you are seemingly contradicting yourself. are the ratings in your files, or in your apps? are you importing XML or scanning files directly?

first things first. upload your example files, tell us what file format[s] other than those are used as well, and THEN we'll get to your actual process.

Originally Posted by Fla_Panther

You want me to upload the file itself? Or a SS of the file properties?

the actual file. www.mediafire.com or something like that.

[DrO]

ideally a small sample file with a tag which exhibits the issue e.g. if you could apply it to the demo.mp3 shipped with Winamp then that's small enough to upload and has no legal issues. as a screenshot will likely not help and it's got to be something specific with your file tags.

-daz

[Fla_Panther]

Hmm, this time it's DrO's turn to be the nice one and your turn to be a bit snippy, Sinatra. I grasped the concepts in this thread quite well, tyvm. Just because I forgot to answer a question or two doesn't mean I'm trying to be evasive. I work nights and sleep days, and had been up for a little over 20 hrs straight when I wrote my last post here. Forgive me.

It does happen that one of the files involved is a small skit. I've uploaded it here:

http://www.divshare.com/download/21428440-ecb

All my files are MP3. I am scanning the files directly, not importing any XML.

[DrO]

i can play bad cop if you'd prefer

am seeing it importing as 4 stars, just starting to dump the raw tag to see what's the cause of it (though did notice that mp3tag reports it as 'RATING MM' so might be they're just doing something weird which Winamp isn't setup to handling / know about).

[edit]
ok below is the output of the tag:

========================================
Processing file: 11---3rd-Bass---Al_z-A-B-Cee_z.mp3
========================================
-------- ID3v2 tag
position: 0 bytes
version: 3
revision: 0
WCOM: http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.ht...025%26ccmID=16
5953%26location=/o/ASIN/B0000024IW%253FSubscriptionId=0RXJS26C80QSDEB56CR2
APIC:
|-type: 3
|-description: (null)
|-mime: image/jpg
|-data: (34308 bytes)
TSOP: 3rd Bass
TPE1: 3rd Bass
TALB: Derelicts of Dialect
TPE2: 3rd Bass
TIT2: Al'z A-B-Cee'z
TKEY: 10A
TPUB: Fontana Def Jam
TRCK: 11
TYER: 1994
TDRC: 1994
POPM:
|-email: no@email
|-rating: 252
|-rating: 0
COMM:
|-language: XXX
|-description: (null)
|-value: 10A - 140.99 - 141
TCON: Hip Hop/Rap
TBPM: 119
-------- ID3v1 tag
position: 2701984 bytes
Title : Al'z A-B-Cee'z
Artist : 3rd Bass
Album : Derelicts of Dialect
Year : 1994
Comment : 10A - 140.99 - 141
Track : 11
Genre : NErr_Empty

so the reason it's importing as 4 is due to the value being set at 252 instead of the 255 which Winamp expects to be a 5* rating. i'm sure we're all going to have some spiffingly fun posts about this...

-daz

[MrSinatra]

i'm not snippy, i'm methodical. i don't like to see conclusions drawn that aren't based in reality.

in addition, when someone asks for help, they have to want to be helped, and should appreciate the help offered. they can show that by listening to whats said.

on to your file...

yes, i see 5 stars in windows explorer, and 4 in winamp. mp3tag shows 5 as well, and does so by saying MM rated it.

so what does this mean?

as i pointed out earlier, mp3s use id3, which has a 0-255 range by spec. but what isn't standardized by spec enough yet, is the ranges.

logically, it should break down like this >

since 5 * 51 = 255, you'd think you have 5 ranges of 51, but do you use this:

0=0 stars
1-51=1
52-103=2
104-155=3
156-207=4
208-259=5

no, b/c 259 is outside the 255 top end. the issue is that the same number can't be used for two star values, which is why the 5*51 thing doesn't apply.

by the same token, doing: 255 minus 51 = 204 doesn't work either, b/c you get less than 51 for the final star.

so basically, there can be little discrepancies between all apps on what makes a star one thing or the other, b/c the spec does not specify a range, or even logically lend itself to equal ranges.

all of that is basically moot though, b/c winamp has decided to copy windows method, which i agree with. (meaning, winamp should just copy what windows does). WMP and other apps allow for more star granularity, but that shouldn't matter here, the point is whatever number is the lowest that windows explorer "sees" as 5 star is NOT being seen by winamp as 5 star. so now we need to know the actual number in the tag.

unfortunately, Florian over at mp3tag has put some dumb logic into the app that can't be defeated, that interprets POPM for you, depending on how the data is written, (which itself depends on what app wrote it, since the syntax for the data includes the email addy, and winamp eg. uses rating@winamp.com)

so what needs to happen here, is we need to establish the ranges that WINDOWS, (not MM), recognizes/reads (not writes) as the lowest number representing each given star.

[MrSinatra]

having now seen DrO's post, look at this part:

POPM:
|-email: no@email
|-rating: 252
|-rating: 0

POPM is the id3 frame. the data is then written in the frame by winamp like this for a 5 star song:

rating@winamp.com | 255 | 0

the final 0 represents playcounts, (the above syntax is by proper id3 spec).

why does MM use 252 then? i have no idea. but obviously windows sees that as 5 stars, and i would guess windows goes down to at least 206 for 5 stars. if i had a proper tag editor for POPM i could test windows to see the lowest number for each given star.

that is the info we need to figure out, to get winamp to read the id3 ranges properly to be compliant with windows.

once we know that number, we should also verify winamp writes the next number UNDER it, for each star. so winamp SHOULD write 255 for 5 stars, and if eg. 206 is the lowest number for five stars for windows, then it should write 205 for FOUR stars.

btw, mp3tag knows MM wrote the rating in your file, b/c MM uses ' no@email ' for writing its ratings.

[DJ Egg]

MediaMonkey is messed up. Looks like it's got its own custom ratings scale:
http://www.mediamonkey.com/forum/vie...hp?f=7&t=40532

We use the more standard version (same as WMP)

I guess we can look at the email in the POPM frame, and if's no@email, then assume it's MM's scale and read it accordingly.

We'll still write to the 0/1/64/128/196/255 scale though, and use/read it in ALL other cases.

[EDIT]
Scrap the above. See posts on page 3 instead :-)

[MrSinatra]

Egg, I'm at a bar watching the eagles so i can't properly respond atm, but please don't do that or close the door on this yet. I think i have better solutions for you

[MrSinatra]

Originally Posted by DJ Egg

MediaMonkey is messed up. Looks like it's got its own custom ratings scale:
http://www.mediamonkey.com/forum/vie...hp?f=7&t=40532

i looked at that thread and found it to be a confusing mess. moreover, its IRRELEVANT.

i'll explain why as we go.

Originally Posted by DJ Egg

We use the more standard version (same as WMP)

it makes sense for winamp to be compliant with windows. i have since tested windows via windows explorer, (win7) and [for the purposes here], i am going to assume that all versions of WMP and windows are congruent with those tests. (which i am fairly sure is true actually)

it is important to note however, that while windows explorer itself does NOT support "star granularity," WMP DOES. that is relevant when considering POPM's data ranges. (so basically, when displayed, WMP can show half stars, fractions of a star, etc, that kind of thing, and its based on the actual number of the POPM, which can be 0-255)

that means that WMP will WRITE numbers that AREN'T the standard 1,64,128,196,255

you have to remember that! and other apps support writing such granularity as well.

Originally Posted by DJ Egg

I guess we can look at the email in the POPM frame, and if's no@email, then assume it's MM's scale and read it accordingly.

NO, YOU CAN'T DO THAT, and i'll explain why.

Originally Posted by DJ Egg

We'll still write to the 0/1/64/128/196/255 scale though, and use/read it in ALL other cases.

it does make sense for winamp to WRITE those numbers to represent the stars, b/c they are the numbers windows explorer writes, (and as said above, likely what WMP writes for "full" stars).

[DrO]

if MM is doing things on the weird scale noted then as we can reliably detect it, we can read it in and that way migrating from MM to Winamp will give the same ratings as needed. i don't get what 'better' solutions there are, as this is a MM specific issue and there is a reliable way to resolve it for the import.

and as i'm already coding that handling, it is being done if liked or not.

-daz

[MrSinatra]

Originally Posted by DrO

if MM is doing things on the weird scale noted then as we can reliably detect it, we can read it in and that way migrating from MM to Winamp will give the same ratings as needed. i don't get what 'better' solutions there are, as this is a MM specific issue and there is a reliable way to resolve it for the import.

and as i'm already coding that handling, it is being done if liked or not.

-daz

i'm the snippy one?

rude, but moreover, wrong.

this "solution" runs counter to everything you guys normally do, creating special case handling where none is needed. consider the vorbis ratings we just "fixed." you wouldn't create an ini pref to let people pick one scale or the other, (or a third). you just went with one scale fits all, b/c 2-5 were unlikely to be used by 0-100 folks. that made sense imo.

but here, you are going to say 'well, if we happen to see this email string, we'll do this scale'

in theory that might sound plausible, but in practice there are many, many problems with that kind of approach.

the first is, ITS UNNECESSARY! its completely, totally, unnecessary b/c you just need winamp to READ the scale the same way WINDOWS EXPLORER does. see my chart here:

>>
224-255 = 5 stars when READ with windows explorer, writes 255
160-223 = 4 stars when READ with windows explorer, writes 196
096-159 = 3 stars when READ with windows explorer, writes 128
032-095 = 2 stars when READ with windows explorer, writes 64
001-031 = 1 stars when READ with windows explorer, writes 1

windows explorer uses this syntax:

Windows Media Player 9 Series | 255 | 0

(the 0 is playcounts as per POPM id3 spec. note the ID string isn't even an email addy)
>>

so if winamp would simply READ the ranges the way windows explorer does, then 252, which is what MM wrote, would be 5 stars!

that alone makes it stupid for winamp to invoke anything or assume anything based on the POPM ratings "ID string," b/c its completely unnecessary.

but it doesn't end there...

the whole point of the ID string/email addy, is to allow a user to identify their rating from another users rating. [you can have more than one POPM frame in a tag]

but lets keep it simple for the moment. lets say someone rated files with MM, and then LATER rated them again with winamp.

WHAT HAPPENS?

well, the email string STAYS THE SAME, as it absolutely SHOULD, but the value is now DIFFERENT. for 5 stars, instead of 252, its 255. but the special case handling will say what? i mean, i don't know what you guys are planning, but 255 will be an unexpected value for MM, and more to the point invalidate the whole reason for special case handling to begin with.

and lets say you account for it and get it to work. fine, great, but WHAT ABOUT OTHER APPS? another app could use its own strange values and ranges, and NOT overwrite the email string. that could def lead to broken handling. you can't know how each and every app is going to read/write POPM frames, and ergo, you should not try to account for it, but rather just be compliant with windows.

to put it yet another way, if you have a situation where you have special MM handling based on the email, but values based on what winamp writes, and it works, then why do you need the special handling to begin with? talk about circular solutions!

the point is that winamp shouldn't give a crap what other apps do, or what strings it finds, it should simply be compliant with windows POPM value ranges.

windows explorer btw has the bad behavior of overwriting the ID string with its own, and destroying replaygain tags in the process.

[DJ Egg]

@MrSinatra

I think our solution is probably best... but hey, I'm all ears :-)

The Eagles, as in the band? Are they still going?
Who's in them these days? Still Don Henley, Joe Walsh & Glenn Frey?

[Edit]
Just seen DrO's latest reply. Yup, what ^he^ said :-)

[Edit2]
Thinking about it, I bet you meant the Philadelphia Eagles, right? lol

[MrSinatra]

Yes, those eagles.

I will reply asap. Just please wait. DrO, i find your lack of faith disturbing

[DrO]

disturbing?? i don't see how as if there are other cases then i am not saying they will not be considered / evaluated. but i don't see what else can be done specifically for MM created ratings when a) we know the ranges and b) we know _explicitly_ the identifier needed to determine MM created ratings.

and if i don't do this now, it ain't going to get done for another few weeks and explicitly handling the known MM rating type to get it importing correctly is not something that i feel is worth leaving sitting around and missing making it into a newer client.

-daz

[MrSinatra]

Originally Posted by DrO

disturbing?? i don't see how as if there are other cases then i am not saying they will not be considered / evaluated. but i don't see what else can be done specifically for MM created ratings when a) we know the ranges and b) we know _explicitly_ the identifier needed to determine MM created ratings.

and if i don't do this now, it ain't going to get done for another few weeks and explicitly handling the known MM rating type to get it importing correctly is not something that i feel is worth leaving sitting around and missing making it into a newer client.

-daz

well, as i just demonstrated, you can not assume ANY OF THAT.

just b/c the email addy/id string implies MM wrote the rating, that does NOT mean that MM did in fact write the # value.

and even if MM wrote the string and the # value, it doesn't matter anyway, b/c if winamp would just read the ranges the way windows explorer does, you would get a proper result, so there is NO NEED for special case handling to begin with.

so, i hope you haven't wasted your time creating MM special case handling, since it is completely and totally unnecessary. if you have, then for your sake and winamps, i hope next time some more faith is shown to me.

[MrSinatra]

Jesus, its a star wars line, that was a joke. It has to be done tonight, this minute? In the name of god why? I'm drinking on a droid, can u not wait a bit for a proper response?

[DrO]

at almost 2am in the morning as that post was, i'm not going to recognise a random star wars quote...

the code in place for MM specific reading is:

code:


if (rating <= 0)

	rating = 0;

else if (rating <= (25 + 3))

	rating = rating - 3;

else if (rating <= (45 + 24))

	rating = rating - 24;

else if (rating <= (65 + 68))

	rating = rating - 68;

else if (rating <= (85 + 116))

	rating = rating - 116;

else

	rating = rating - 152;



rating /= 20;

this takes the value, converts it from their 0-255 mapping back to 0-100 and then converts to the 0-5 scale we use. otherwise the rest of the handling has been left as is.

as for doing it now, if i don't do it now (as is now done), it just ain't going to get done any time this year as i've a shit load of work still to do and i'd actually like to not work much (or rather not at all) over the holiday period for a change.

and with that at 3am, i'm done for the day.

-daz

[Fla_Panther]

Originally Posted by DrO

and with that at 3am, i'm done for the day.

-daz

You must be in the UK ... it's only 10pm for me, and I'd guess for Sinatra as well. You were writing your last post as I was writing my novel. Again, thanks for putting something in. I'll still kick in a donation.

[MrSinatra]

Originally Posted by DrO

at almost 2am in the morning as that post was, i'm not going to recognise a random star wars quote...

come on, its at least a top 5 quote, and really one of the best and funniest in the movie.

may the force be with you regardless.

Originally Posted by DrO

the code in place for MM specific reading is:

code:


if (rating <= 0)

	rating = 0;

else if (rating <= (25 + 3))

	rating = rating - 3;

else if (rating <= (45 + 24))

	rating = rating - 24;

else if (rating <= (65 + 68))

	rating = rating - 68;

else if (rating <= (85 + 116))

	rating = rating - 116;

else

	rating = rating - 152;



rating /= 20;

this takes the value, converts it from their 0-255 mapping back to 0-100 and then converts to the 0-5 scale we use. otherwise the rest of the handling has been left as is.

wow. awful. i hope its removed.

but this brings up another point. why do you guys seemingly insist on injecting math into the ratings? there is no need for it. it should be a straight table lookup, for POPM or vorbis.

i gave you the chart in the previous post. just have winamp reference a table. no need for calculations, processing time, or anything complex. 'this value = this star' ...thats it, period.

why wouldn't you do that?

Originally Posted by DrO

as for doing it now, if i don't do it now (as is now done), it just ain't going to get done any time this year as i've a shit load of work still to do and i'd actually like to not work much (or rather not at all) over the holiday period for a change.

and with that at 3am, i'm done for the day.

-daz

from the beginning i have been trying to save your guys time. i realize how precious it is, and i say that 100% sincerely. so this is frustrating to me as well, b/c you guys are wasting your time, seemingly in a rush to do so, even though i am saying "hold on, consider this"

[Fla_Panther]

lol @ the back and forth between you guys ...

As for "snippy" it was just the first word that came to mind. I do appreciate the help and the work you guys are putting into WinAmp. As I mentioned, I've been using WinAmp 2.9 for what's gotta be a decade now, and though I was using MM to sync with my iTouch (bought that for other reasons years ago, tried MM first because it accepts the iTouch) - I'd continued using WinAmp for playing almost everything else on my PC. And I was very happy with 2.9 because it's small, simple, and just works. I had tried WinAmp 3 when it first came out and didn't like it but now that I've upgraded to 5.6 I like it a lot.

Anyway ... a quick note about the 5*51 thing ... actually you do get 255. You're counting incorrectly, failing to count the first digit in each group (similar to how people forget to count 0 as a number when counting binary from 0 to 255 to get 256). This will show it clearer:

code:
0 ....... 0 stars

1-51 .... 1234567890 1234567890 1234567890 1234567890 1234567890 1

52-102 .. 234567890 1234567890 1234567890 1234567890 1234567890 12

103-153 . 34567890 1234567890 1234567890 1234567890 1234567890 123

154-204 . 4567890 1234567890 1234567890 1234567890 1234567890 1234

205-255 . 567890 1234567890 1234567890 1234567890 1234567890 12345

You'll notice each line contains 51 characters (plus spaces, added to make it easier to count the groups). On that first line you have to count the 1 (as well as the 50 you added to it) to make 51.

Anyway, as you said, it's a moot point. The question is - how to get the MM tags into WinAmp. I've never used mp3tag, but I see that it's a free download. I'll download it and see if I can figure a way to do a batch conversion.

As for my two cents regarding what method you use in WinAmp ... so far I see two options, and I'll add a third:

Same as Windows
Pros: Makes it easier on the end user to port into WinAmp. May also make it easier for them to port out of WinAmp if they do decide to try another program.
Cons: More coding

WinAmp Proprietary
Pros: Compatible with older versions of WinAmp. Less coding.
Cons: Potentially less compatible with users transferring files into/out of WinAmp

Third Suggestion:
Keep your WinAmp proprietary standard to maintain backwards compatibility - but also create a plugin that will let users see each file's ratings via the different systems and migrate back and forth as needed.

Options 1 & 3 are the best to me. Less headache may mean the user is more willing to come back to WinAmp later - just as I was willing to come back (AND purchase a used iPod Nano 4th Gen) to get a working solution - because of my positive experiences with WinAmp 2.9. I know it's a pain, but it'll make it easier on the end user, and that feel-good will pay WinAmp back down the line.

Trust me, as an end user, it's been a pain trying to find a workable solution. I've lost ~4 years worth of songs ratings, this will be my 4th piece of software (and second MP3 player). I know I'm not the only person who's felt this pain, and I know I'm not the only person who will appreciate the plugin if you guys do make one. As a matter of fact, I'll tell you what ... since the time I've started using WinAmp I've graduated college and gotten into a career. Link me to a donation page and I'll drop $100 in.

[MrSinatra]

Originally Posted by Fla_Panther

lol @ the back and forth between you guys ...

As for "snippy" it was just the first word that came to mind. I do appreciate the help and the work you guys are putting into WinAmp. As I mentioned, I've been using WinAmp 2.9 for what's gotta be a decade now, and though I was using MM to sync with my iTouch (bought that for other reasons years ago, tried MM first because it accepts the iTouch) - I'd continued using WinAmp for playing almost everything else on my PC. And I was very happy with 2.9 because it's small, simple, and just works. I had tried WinAmp 3 when it first came out and didn't like it but now that I've upgraded to 5.6 I like it a lot.

i love 5.63, and i love winamp.

i also love DrO and DJ Egg. but oh, how they hurt me!

Originally Posted by Fla_Panther

Anyway ... a quick note about the 5*51 thing ... actually you do get 255. You're counting incorrectly, failing to count the first digit in each group (similar to how people forget to count 0 as a number when counting binary from 0 to 255 to get 256). This will show it clearer:

code:
0 ....... 0 stars

1-51 .... 1234567890 1234567890 1234567890 1234567890 1234567890 1

52-102 .. 234567890 1234567890 1234567890 1234567890 1234567890 12

103-153 . 34567890 1234567890 1234567890 1234567890 1234567890 123

154-204 . 4567890 1234567890 1234567890 1234567890 1234567890 1234

205-255 . 567890 1234567890 1234567890 1234567890 1234567890 12345

You'll notice each line contains 51 characters (plus spaces, added to make it easier to count the groups). On that first line you have to count the 1 (as well as the 50 you added to it) to make 51.

yes, very true. but meaningless. the point here isn't the theory of how POPM should have been setup or handled to begin with, but rather how winamp should deal with it. and there's no question that the only sensible way for winamp to deal with it, is to be compliant with windows.

i knew, basically from the moment you posted, that the likely cause to your MM issue was going to be the way winamp interpreted the # ranges, and that winamp was likely not doing it the way windows does it. but i wanted to be sure based on the evidence you would provide, b/c i don't like to jump the gun. like i said, i'm methodical.

Originally Posted by Fla_Panther

Anyway, as you said, it's a moot point. The question is - how to get the MM tags into WinAmp.

i'd phrase it this way: the question is, 'how should winamp read rating ranges.'

its not a MM issue, its an interpretation issue. and the answer of course, is winamp should do it the way windows does it.

and if it did, your MM ratings would be just fine as is, (assuming the other star ratings fall into the "right" ranges the way 252 does).

Originally Posted by Fla_Panther

I've never used mp3tag, but I see that it's a free download. I'll download it and see if I can figure a way to do a batch conversion.

mp3tag is awesome, EXCEPT when it comes to ratings. i HATE how it handles ratings. see here:

http://forums.mp3tag.de/index.php?showtopic=13378

Originally Posted by Fla_Panther

As for my two cents regarding what method you use in WinAmp ... so far I see two options, and I'll add a third:

Same as Windows
Pros: Makes it easier on the end user to port into WinAmp. May also make it easier for them to port out of WinAmp if they do decide to try another program.
Cons: More coding

WinAmp Proprietary
Pros: Compatible with older versions of WinAmp. Less coding.
Cons: Potentially less compatible with users transferring files into/out of WinAmp

Third Suggestion:
Keep your WinAmp proprietary standard to maintain backwards compatibility - but also create a plugin that will let users see each file's ratings via the different systems and migrate back and forth as needed.

Options 1 & 3 are the best to me. Less headache may mean the user is more willing to come back to WinAmp later - just as I was willing to come back (AND purchase a used iPod Nano 4th Gen) to get a working solution - because of my positive experiences with WinAmp 2.9. I know it's a pain, but it'll make it easier on the end user, and that feel-good will pay WinAmp back down the line.

none of those really apply and nothing here is proprietary. all winamp needs to do is comply with this chart, and it should work well for EVERYONE:

>>
224-255 = 5 stars when READ with windows explorer, writes 255
160-223 = 4 stars when READ with windows explorer, writes 196
096-159 = 3 stars when READ with windows explorer, writes 128
032-095 = 2 stars when READ with windows explorer, writes 64
001-031 = 1 stars when READ with windows explorer, writes 1
>>

Originally Posted by Fla_Panther

Trust me, as an end user, it's been a pain trying to find a workable solution. I've lost ~4 years worth of songs ratings, this will be my 4th piece of software (and second MP3 player). I know I'm not the only person who's felt this pain, and I know I'm not the only person who will appreciate the plugin if you guys do make one. As a matter of fact, I'll tell you what ... since the time I've started using WinAmp I've graduated college and gotten into a career. Link me to a donation page and I'll drop $100 in.

you're talking to someone who pissed off DrO to get ratings in tags to begin with, using scales compatible with other apps, precisely b/c i would only use ratings if they were written to tags, not just a DB, and if they would work with other apps.

normally, i would not want to anger DrO. he's a great, great coder. but there are times i feel its important to get something right that he otherwise is not interested in, and so i risk his wrath to do so. ratings are, imo, extremely important to get right, and so i take the risk.

(no plugin will be necessary, ratings are native now to the app, just turn on the pref to write them to supported formats, but you can always donate to DrO for his efforts)

[MrSinatra]

i'm drunk and iwill be coherent tomorrow, plz wait