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Old 29th January 2013, 04:25   #121
MrSinatra
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it would be helpful if Aminifu, DrO, Egg, etc would take a moment to test my zip file. it shouldn't take more than 2 minutes tops.

i am curious as to what media software you have installed? maybe something like picard or MM or whatnot made changes to how win exp interprets POPM via the registry?

EDIT: maybe you could upload a similar zip file of your own test files, and i could see what results i get with your files?

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Old 29th January 2013, 07:54   #122
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Hi MrSinatra & ryerman,

MrSinatra, I downloaded your test files and I get the same results as you do when checking their ratings in Windows Explorer on my system.

However, when trying to check their ratings in my WMP version 12, I can not get correct results. Your test files show no ratings at all and files from my music collection (which have no ratings) all show a 3 star rating. My music files correctly show no ratings in Explorer.

My theory is this is because of the codecs I use with WMP. I only use WMP to play videos and movies and I use "Shark007's 32-bit and 64-bit codec packages" to provide the support needed for WMP to play all the video formats I need. These codec packages rewrite the Windows registry entries in order to substitute for the default Windows codecs associated with WMP.

I will test this theory later in the week by returning everything to the Windows defaults. I need to update my Shark007 codecs and that is part of the process.

I remember from another discussion we had that these Shark007 codecs also interacted with the Winamp codecs causing some genre tags to be read differently on our systems.

Anyway, since ryerman has disabled WMP on his system that may explain why his Explorer is showing different ratings for your test files. Or, as you suggested, some other app's codecs on his system may have affected the way his Explorer is reading ratings.

This is rather interesting, but I don't know what it really means. I would have expected all codecs to read most tags the same way, especially those that are just text entries in the media files. But tags that need further interpretation, such as genre and rating, could give different results I suppose. Since there are no hard standards, this is probably something we just have to live with.

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Old 29th January 2013, 13:53   #123
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afaik, i have the vanilla mp3 codecs that come with the OS, winamp, etc. so yeah, it will be interesting to hear what ryerman has installed media wise. it doesn't have to be a codec though, an app could make this change as well.

while there is no standard, what does make sense for apps to do is to simply copy what windows explorer does, at least for the five full stars. this is b/c apple is not in the POPM game, and all this software runs on the windows OS, and should therefore take its lead from it, even though the windows implementation is, for lack of a better word, stupid. the need for a universal de facto standard is greater than the need for a perfect implementation. thats why TPE2 is album artist now.

are you able to contact shark and report these genre, popm bugs?

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Old 30th January 2013, 06:37   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSinatra View Post
afaik, i have the vanilla mp3 codecs that come with the OS, winamp, etc. so yeah, it will be interesting to hear what ryerman has installed media wise. it doesn't have to be a codec though, an app could make this change as well.
What other app based change are you referring to? I don't have enough knowledge in this area to use the proper terminology, but what other than codecs, or codec support library files, are used to read the tags in media files?

Quote:
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are you able to contact shark and report these genre, popm bugs?
Yes, I can post questions on Shark007's website. But I don't yet know for sure if there is codec interference from Shark007's packages. He did not write the codecs in his packages. They are the standard ones used by most packages (ffdshow, ac3, haali, lav, mpc, nero, webm, etc.). His packages just installs and configures these codecs for use with WMP.

It will be at least 2 more days before I can test my theory as to WMP. I also need to find that post where we were comparing genre results, so that I can retest that when I have my system reset to the Windows defaults.

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Old 30th January 2013, 07:47   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aminifu View Post
What other app based change are you referring to? I don't have enough knowledge in this area to use the proper terminology, but what other than codecs, or codec support library files, are used to read the tags in media files?
i am guessing, but apps like dbpoweramp, winamp, etc can via the registry, involve themselves in the context menu of windows explorer. so i am thinking that an app could change how the POPM data is interpreted by the shell. this would not need to involve codecs at all. the raw data would be the same, and seen as the same, (meaning, the numerical POPM value). what would be different is what that raw data would mean to the shell, (of win exp). i believe it is the shell, via registry code, that determines what POPM values will = what star.

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Originally Posted by Aminifu View Post
Yes, I can post questions on Shark007's website. But I don't yet know for sure if there is codec interference from Shark007's packages. He did not write the codecs in his packages. They are the standard ones used by most packages (ffdshow, ac3, haali, lav, mpc, nero, webm, etc.). His packages just installs and configures these codecs for use with WMP.

It will be at least 2 more days before I can test my theory as to WMP. I also need to find that post where we were comparing genre results, so that I can retest that when I have my system reset to the Windows defaults.
i understand. i'll be very interested to see what you find out. i am also anxious to hear what stuff ryerman has installed.

EDIT: btw, i have gotten the dev at MM to agree to switch his 5 star rating from 252 to 255. it remains to be seen though if he'll adopt any of my other suggestions, but every little bit of interoperability helps imo.

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Old 30th January 2013, 09:30   #126
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external codecs would only ever be used if the files are set to be handled via in_dshow, anything else would _only_ be done via the native in_* plug-in for the file format. i know some people have done that for mp3 but it then cripples the experience even if the codec is able to provide what is needed for in_dshow to query the metadata from it.

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Old 30th January 2013, 15:05   #127
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thats gtk DrO, but that only applies to winamp, yes?

the mystery of the moment is why ryerman and aminifu are getting different results from me, and from each other, with the Microsoft based stuff.

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Old 30th January 2013, 15:12   #128
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yes it only applies to Winamp on what i said i.e. it requires someone to have intervened and changed settings for it to even attempt to use external codecs.

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Old 30th January 2013, 17:33   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSinatra View Post
i am guessing, but apps like dbpoweramp, winamp, etc can via the registry, involve themselves in the context menu of windows explorer. so i am thinking that an app could change how the POPM data is interpreted by the shell. this would not need to involve codecs at all. the raw data would be the same, and seen as the same, (meaning, the numerical POPM value). what would be different is what that raw data would mean to the shell, (of win exp). i believe it is the shell, via registry code, that determines what POPM values will = what star........
Nice call MrSinatra!

dBpoweramp was the culprit. I have the free version.
After I removed all integration of its Music Converter from Windows Explorer, ratings are read and written as you have shown.

Sorry about that chief.
Bad luck that the one person who did some testing had a system that messed up the ratings.

At best, that is a bug in dBpoweramp, but at worst it means dBpoweramp is applying some rating system without using a unique address in the POPM frame and instead uses the Microsoft one (Windows Media Player 9 Series).

fyi I won't pursue this in the dBpoweramp forums.
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Old 30th January 2013, 17:49   #130
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awesome, thanks for your testing and identification of the culprit!

dbpoweramp was the first thing that came into my mind actually, b/c i remember all the cool shell things it would do when installed. i haven't used it in years, but i actually miss those shell features. lucky guess really.

anyway...

proper behavior for an app is to leave the id string in POPM in place, at least by default. an app should not overwrite an existing id string value unless explicitly directed to do so.

further, imo, an app should R/W the values MS uses for full stars, namely 1,64,128,196,255

what it does for half stars, if it supports half stars, is more murky, but i suggested a sensical system at MM. its under consideration.

http://www.mediamonkey.com/forum/vie...358691#p358691

maybe i'll test dbpoweramp next, and see what all it does. does it support half stars? if i figure things out with it, i'll prob post to their forums as well. the more interoperability and stronger a de facto standard is, the better imo.

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Old 1st February 2013, 00:48   #131
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@ryerman,

I'm glad you were able to clear up the discrepancy with your Explorer results.

Thank you for taking time to run tests. I remember some months back when you ran tests when I was ranting about wasted hard drive space. I appreciated it then (although I don't remember saying so) and I appreciate it now.

@MrSinatra,

After resetting my WMP codecs to the Windows defaults, I'm still not able to see your test files ratings in my WMP. WMP shows ratings in 2 ways. Blue colored stars for ratings it automatically applies for music files without ratings and yellow colored stars for those with ratings. I did not know this and it explains why files from my collection all show 3 blue stars. When allowed, WMP will use various online sources to get ratings. I assume when it is not allowed (as in my case) it will apply the 3 stars to everything without ratings.

WMP version 12 will apply ratings to the files themselves, previous versions of WMP stored the ratings in the WMP database. I'm glad that I set my files to 'read only' after I vet them. I would not have wanted WMP to apply it's automatic rating to my files (which, I believe, is what it would do by default).

I don't use WMP to play music files, so I'm not going to worry about not seeing the ratings for your files. It is probably due to the various WMP options I have enabled and disabled. I see your test files ratings in Explorer and Winamp and they are consistent with the results you posted.


I found the thread (link below) about the genre differences I was referring to. It does not apply to this case. Those files were mp4 and different codecs were being used which explained the different results. I don't use Winamp to play videos, so the *.dlls that DrO is talking about are not in my Winamp configuration. At the time, mp4 files were associated with WMP and were thus using the Shark007 applied codecs.

http://forums.winamp.com/showthread.php?t=346981


So, bottom line, all is well. Hopefully your efforts with MM (and possibly others) will bear fruit.

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Old 5th February 2013, 05:45   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aminifu View Post
@ryerman,

I'm glad you were able to clear up the discrepancy with your Explorer results.

Thank you for taking time to run tests. I remember some months back when you ran tests when I was ranting about wasted hard drive space. I appreciated it then (although I don't remember saying so) and I appreciate it now.
agreed.

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Originally Posted by Aminifu View Post
@MrSinatra,

After resetting my WMP codecs to the Windows defaults, I'm still not able to see your test files ratings in my WMP.
thx for your testing. i can only guess that changes to your registry were not reversed by the uninstall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aminifu View Post
WMP shows ratings in 2 ways. Blue colored stars for ratings it automatically applies for music files without ratings and yellow colored stars for those with ratings. I did not know this and it explains why files from my collection all show 3 blue stars. When allowed, WMP will use various online sources to get ratings. I assume when it is not allowed (as in my case) it will apply the 3 stars to everything without ratings.
i did know this, i posted it in the MM thread. the blue ratings are, afaik, only stored in the WMP DB, not the files.

gold ratings are reflective of some rating value in the file.

again, afaik, there is no way to get the blue ratings stored in the files. only user rated tracks get a value in the file. blue ratings are interesting though, b/c they can be fractions of a star, beyond even half stars. blocking the net would prob result in just 3 for all of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aminifu View Post
WMP version 12 will apply ratings to the files themselves, previous versions of WMP stored the ratings in the WMP database.
i believe previous versions would also apply ratings to files, not just 12.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aminifu View Post
I'm glad that I set my files to 'read only' after I vet them. I would not have wanted WMP to apply it's automatic rating to my files (which, I believe, is what it would do by default).
i do not believe it does that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aminifu View Post
I don't use WMP to play music files, so I'm not going to worry about not seeing the ratings for your files. It is probably due to the various WMP options I have enabled and disabled. I see your test files ratings in Explorer and Winamp and they are consistent with the results you posted.
yeah, prob just a registry value that didn't get fixed post uninstall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aminifu View Post
I found the thread (link below) about the genre differences I was referring to. It does not apply to this case. Those files were mp4 and different codecs were being used which explained the different results. I don't use Winamp to play videos, so the *.dlls that DrO is talking about are not in my Winamp configuration. At the time, mp4 files were associated with WMP and were thus using the Shark007 applied codecs.

http://forums.winamp.com/showthread.php?t=346981

So, bottom line, all is well. Hopefully your efforts with MM (and possibly others) will bear fruit.
Jiri has now said that he will comply with using 1,64,128,196,255 for R/W of full stars. that complies with win exp, wmp, and winamp. thats a big win imo, as MM was using 23 for 1 star, and 252 for 5.

the more apps that do the same exact thing, the stronger the de facto standard becomes.

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Old 5th February 2013, 07:55   #133
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thx for your testing. i can only guess that changes to your registry were not reversed by the uninstall.
No, my registry was reversed correctly. I keep before and after snap shots of my registry (from a virgin OS install and every app I later install and remove) so that I can check. I've learned to do this over the years, after being burned too many times from incomplete uninstalls. This also lets me keep tabs on CCleaner, which sometimes leaves things behind for safety reasons when it cleans the registry.

I have disabled most of what WMP would normally do by default and it is probably related to that, why the ratings did not show up. Anyway, for me it is not a problem, so I'm not going to worry about it for now.


Quote:
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Jiri has now said that he will comply with using 1,64,128,196,255 for R/W of full stars. that complies with win exp, wmp, and winamp. thats a big win imo, as MM was using 23 for 1 star, and 252 for 5.
That is good news. I only use MM to embed artwork, but I agree having it and Winamp and Windows' proprietary apps using the same values for full star ratings is a positive step forward.

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Old 5th February 2013, 16:54   #134
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Quote:
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No, my registry was reversed correctly. I keep before and after snap shots of my registry (from a virgin OS install and every app I later install and remove) so that I can check. I've learned to do this over the years, after being burned too many times from incomplete uninstalls. This also lets me keep tabs on CCleaner, which sometimes leaves things behind for safety reasons when it cleans the registry.

I have disabled most of what WMP would normally do by default and it is probably related to that, why the ratings did not show up. Anyway, for me it is not a problem, so I'm not going to worry about it for now.
if its not the registry or the codecs, it must be either the app or another app.

one of the options in WMP is something like "maintain my ratings as global ratings"

its possible that option is a toggle to write ratings to file.

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Old 20th April 2013, 20:47   #135
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Hi all. These rating issues have still been floating through my mind for the last few months but I've had other things on my plate. Now that I've had some time to come back Iv'e caught up on the thread and Mr. Sinatra's posts took the same path as my thoughts. Unfortunately DrO skipped a significant section as the overall post was tl;dnr. If I may, I'd like to bring back this one section:

Quote:
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a family has many computers and devices, and music centrally stored on a server or NAS. each user has their own winamp, maybe even multiple winamps. (or, maybe one computer with multiple windows logins/users, each with a user specific winamp install).

now lets say each user put their email in the pref as you have now implemented it. if in addition, multiple POPM frames WERE supported, then each file could have dozens of user specific ratings in it, AND each winamp install could read and write JUST that users POPM frame, based on your new pref!

that would eliminate a lot of your objections to ratings in tags, b/c they would then be user specific. and it would mean that what i said earlier wouldn't matter, meaning that in such a scenario as this, winamp WOULD and SHOULD read and write ONLY the user ID value in your new pref.

i know supporting multiple id3 frames is beyond anything you want to do here and now, but surely you see where i'm coming from? and this new pref is helpful for taking steps to that direction.

and such additions would not be a burden, b/c most users could just leave the defaults in place and be happy with it. ergo, the app would not need to ask for that information. (i should point out, that winamp DOES ask for an email when installing, it just doesn't require it. but it could optionally use that email for the pref)
.... This is exactly what I've been thinking. All the media players have been misusing the tag (not throwing stones, bear with me). From what I've read, one reason Apple has a database separate from the files is to do exactly this - handle ratings for multiple users. But this could be done in the file without any DB needed.

In my case, as someone who makes mixes now and then I'd love to be able to have a music library program that will let me tag songs with separate ratings - one for me as an individual, and another for me as a DJ - because I would rate songs differently for myself versus for a mix set. Or for a professional DJ, it could be handy to have different ratings for different types of gigs (wedding, bar mitzvah, birthday, etc). This is no different than allowing a family of 4 to have their own ratings. And yes, I store my files on a NAS, so I want to be able access them from any PC in the house and see the ratings I want.

Granted, giving Winamp a drop-down menu to select which user's ratings are shown is far off in the future. But the ability to tag with a truly user-generated ID is the future, IMO.
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Old 21st April 2013, 01:51   #136
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Granted, giving Winamp a drop-down menu to select which user's ratings are shown is far off in the future. But the ability to tag with a truly user-generated ID is the future, IMO.
the ability to specify your email addy for POPM is now in the beta. but that's it. no multiple POPM frames or anything else.

the dropdown menu is not the hard part for the devs. implementing multiple POPMs and then creating a UI in prefs to control how it would work is the hard part, (although, clearly doable, just a matter of them wanting to do it, and then taking the time to do it). not to mention making the ML display/act differently depending how on the fly changes to the values the user sets to those prefs.

here is what would need to be done:

1. support multiple POPM frames.
2. exposing in the prefs the ability for the user to delineate what email id string is written to POPM. (default: rating@winamp.com ) THIS IS DONE.

note: it would be nice to be able to store multiple emails (or other txt ID strings) however, and pick which one you want via a dropdown box or similar.

3. supplying a toggle to overwrite or respect existing id txt strings, (default: respect)

this would determine if new POPM frames would be written or not. if set to "respect" then when a rating is set with a new/differing email addy from what is already in a POPM, it would create a new POPM frame. otherwise, overwrite.

note: if multiple POPMs already existed, and overwrite were "on" the last POPM should be the one overwritten.

4.supplying a second toggle to only display ratings for the email specified in #2, (default: off)

note: when off, this would show any rating present by default, but would show what's specified in #2 as the preferred one for display. however, when "on" it would show only that one exclusively for display.

5. make the ML "refresh" its view based on how the above prefs are set/changed, when changes are made, on-the-fly.

--

that's pretty much it. the UI for this would be in the prefs, although a button or sub menu to an existing button in a skin to let you change the current email and/or other options discussed above would be cool, say via the top center file info window in bento.

Quote:
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Mr. Sinatra's posts took the same path as my thoughts. Unfortunately DrO skipped a significant section as the overall post was tl;dnr. If I may, I'd like to bring back this one section:
interesting that the post was "too long" ...except of course for the part that interests you.

well, at least you aren't calling me names now.

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Old 21st April 2013, 03:14   #137
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interesting that the post was "too long" ...except of course for the part that interests you.
Actually I was referring to the fact that DrO said your post was tl;dnr. I read the whole thing.

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well, at least you aren't calling me names now.
Don't get me started.
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Old 20th April 2014, 04:38   #138
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Is m4a support still not available?
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Old 20th April 2014, 04:41   #139
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m4a has been supported for a long time now. it uses a 0-100 scale I believe, for the raw data.

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Old 20th April 2014, 04:50   #140
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I am using Winamp 5.666 on Windows 7 with "Big Bento" skin. I see no ratings when I play m4a files, only mp3 files.
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Old 20th April 2014, 05:12   #141
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if you rated them in iTunes, that's why. iTunes ratings are in a DB, not a files tag.

u might find a utility that will put the itunes DB values into the tags.

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Old 20th April 2014, 06:33   #142
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if you rated them in iTunes, that's why. iTunes ratings are in a DB, not a files
tag.
No, I rated them using Windows Explorer.
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Old 20th April 2014, 07:06   #143
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Originally Posted by svnpenn View Post
No, I rated them using Windows Explorer.
and as discussed in the other thread, that explains it, since win exp is using some proprietary method, (prob in the file header to stick it in file properties), and not the %rate% atom.

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Old 20th April 2014, 07:17   #144
svnpenn
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Originally Posted by MrSinatra
and as discussed in the other thread, that explains it,
since win exp is using some proprietary method, (prob in the file header to
stick it in file properties), and not the %rate% atom.
Windows Explorer aside, I am not seeing an option to even rate these files. With
unrated MP3 files, they show up with no stars so that you can rate them. M4A
files are not showing a rating field in Winamp.
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Old 20th April 2014, 07:22   #145
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lets continue in the other thread:

http://forums.winamp.com/showthread.php?t=373680

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