Old 25th June 2012, 02:30   #1
CJ_Man
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Feature Acticle in Ars Technica

I guess this is the appropriate forum for this. Probably my favourite tech news site leads today with a major article on Winamp.

http://arstechnica.com/business/2012...-undid-itself/

I'm a long time Winamp user and still love the software, but it's difficult not to be a little saddened by the thrust of the Ars story. It would be great to hear from those who have been around longer and seen more of the history, perhaps even from the inside.
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Old 25th June 2012, 09:14   #2
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Hi CJ_Man,

Thanx for the link to that article. I'm been using WA from the beginning. It is amazing that it is still around given what AOL did and does. WA (and AOL at its start) started out fulfilling a need, then corporate MBAs and greed managers took over. Such a waste of potential! Some WA devs have kept WA as relevant as it is by working on their own to donate new features and updates. That is now starting to die out, along with meaningful contributions from the 3rd party development community which all but stopped years ago.

The powers that be seem to be content with 'milking' the brand for whatever cash can still be made while letting the product die (especially the desktop version). Only a resurgence of the 3rd party development community with the acceptance and support of WA management can save it, imo. Plus, Apple has locked up so many patents that innovating around them will not be easy.

Sad for WA, but there are new needs and the spirit that started WA still exits and some young person(s) somewhere will fill them.

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Old 25th June 2012, 11:41   #3
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Wow, I didn´t see that coming! I will read it and come back later..
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Old 25th June 2012, 20:27   #4
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Cool article. But sad. Anyway, it´s good to finally read something "official" and not just rumors.
Personally, I like to incline to that "second coming", but it´s been so long.. I don´t know if I believe in that anymore..
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Old 25th June 2012, 21:45   #5
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What exactly do people want from Winamp? I personally don't want Winamp to become some bloated software that's also an interface with a store for buying music like iTunes, or loaded down with a whole bunch of social media nonsense. So when it says that Winamp could be in the position iTunes is in that makes me cringe. I do not want that at all.

All I want is relatively simple software for organizing my music collection so that it's easy to navigate through and play whatever album I'm in the mood for. I've tried A LOT of different software for this and I've yet to find anything that comes close to the Winamp media library for accomplishing this.

Innovation is good, but I really don't want to see them go in the music store/social media direction that other players seem to be moving in. The day Winamp becomes like iTunes is probably the day that I stop using it. Which would be a sad day.
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Old 26th June 2012, 00:10   #6
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I want it to be innovative again, I´m also not interested in seeing it becoming "social", rather I thinks there is a lot to improve or to add. Like "cover flow" album art, new views on ML album art, waveform graphics, more sophisticated playlist (having some other info attached, like album name or art, year, genre, etc), tabbed playlist, easier skinning engine, video improvements, new forms of interacting with my collection (3D? Book art display? integrated artist info?), etc.
Don´t get me wrong, Winamp is still a great music player, but it´s just that, "a music player". Winamp used to mean a lot more..
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Old 26th June 2012, 04:24   #7
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Hi Victhor,

A few of the things you listed are provided, although maybe not in a way you want to see them. A few visualization plug-ins provide waveform graphics. The playlist editor and taskbar titles can include more info (by using an ATF string), but it's all on 1 line. A multi-line ATF string would be better, imo. A few lines of artist info can be displayed in the media library with more available in the browser view.

I suppose the current skinning engine makes it hard or impossible to provide the other 'eye candy' like cover flow and multiple art views. The big Bento skin encourages users to want more 'eye candy', so WA does need to do more, imo. I have an old plug-in that uses the video view to cycle through multiple art views associated with an album (front, back, liner notes) and display more info from file tags. The 'Now Playing' view provided in the cPro skin is a step in the right direction.

I don't use WA for video, but since it markets itself as an all media player, video improvements must be made (even if only for the Pro version).

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Last edited by Aminifu; 26th June 2012 at 05:34.
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Old 26th June 2012, 05:01   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinsound View Post
Innovation is good, but I really don't want to see them go in the music store/social media direction that other players seem to be moving in. The day Winamp becomes like iTunes is probably the day that I stop using it. Which would be a sad day.
I agreed with you. I only use WA to manage and play my music collection. But WA markets itself as, "It's how you listen, watch and manage music, video, podcasts and internet radio on your desktop and devices.". So the door is open to all this other stuff.

Social media is here to stay and unfortunately there must be some connection to it to stay 'relevant'. Record companies see online stores as a viable way to maintain their control and they have the money (and lawyers) to greatly influence this.

The good thing about WA is its architecture allows users to opt-out of the things they don't want to use. So everything needs to be provided but, unlike iTunes, you won't be locked in. WA just needs to hire more devs (and incentivize 3rd party devs) and bring its features and capabilities up to the state-of-the-art, imo. If WA's management does not do this, then WA will become a footnote in history.

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Old 26th June 2012, 11:42   #9
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Originally Posted by Aminifu View Post
I agreed with you. I only use WA to manage and play my music collection. But WA markets itself as, "It's how you listen, watch and manage music, video, podcasts and internet radio on your desktop and devices.". So the door is open to all this other stuff.

Social media is here to stay and unfortunately there must be some connection to it to stay 'relevant'. Record companies see online stores as a viable way to maintain their control and they have the money (and lawyers) to greatly influence this.

The good thing about WA is its architecture allows users to opt-out of the things they don't want to use. So everything needs to be provided but, unlike iTunes, you won't be locked in. WA just needs to hire more devs (and incentivize 3rd party devs) and bring its features and capabilities up to the state-of-the-art, imo. If WA's management does not do this, then WA will become a footnote in history.
It will be tough for WA to hire more devs. AOL is selling its patents for cash and has been cutting costs this year. Personally I would love more devs working at it and would not mind paying for more and better features. I cannot use any other players for my music. Itunes or Mediamonkey are not at par with Winamp.
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Old 26th June 2012, 11:47   #10
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Originally Posted by lostinsound View Post
What exactly do people want from Winamp? I personally don't want Winamp to become some bloated software that's also an interface with a store for buying music like iTunes, or loaded down with a whole bunch of social media nonsense. So when it says that Winamp could be in the position iTunes is in that makes me cringe. I do not want that at all.

All I want is relatively simple software for organizing my music collection so that it's easy to navigate through and play whatever album I'm in the mood for. I've tried A LOT of different software for this and I've yet to find anything that comes close to the Winamp media library for accomplishing this.

Innovation is good, but I really don't want to see them go in the music store/social media direction that other players seem to be moving in. The day Winamp becomes like iTunes is probably the day that I stop using it. Which would be a sad day.

I agree with you on that. Winamp chugs along nicely with my playlist of 25k+ songs while Itunes, Media monkey and WMP failed miserably. No need for feature bloat for WA
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Old 26th June 2012, 15:08   #11
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with all of the crap that seems to be floating about. how about just keeping it simple and to the point:

use whatever player you want to use as long as it fits your needs as best as it can.


that's all that matters and if Winamp is the best suited then use it or use Sonique if that's a better fit or iTunes or any other media player that you can think off. the point is each player targets different audiences and that obviously stems from people having different wants and needs.


as for the article, i find it disappointing how some aspects are wrong (2004-7 having no development??) and the complete level of vitriol which is in the comments is just saddening. though in general it probably is a fair summary of most things.

i did chuckle at the comments about the code being truly rubbish (not someone i'm aware of having ever seen the source code) or that someone else was going to write (yet another) Winamp clone in a month or so - i guess imitation is flattery or something like that.

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Old 26th June 2012, 18:56   #12
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i've been using winamp since the mid to late 90s, during the napster golden era. i was a casual user though, not truly getting involved with understanding winamp until ~2001 or 2 and at that time, i was more interested in shoutcast for my radio station, which they still use to this day. i didn't really become a forum presence until around 2008 or so. i waited a long time to digitize my collection, basically waiting patiently for rippers and codecs to get up to standards i considered acceptable for me. maybe around 2005/6 or so i started ripping in earnest, with EAC.

i remember when frankel did gnutella and how pissed off AOL was. i think the article, from my perspective as an outsider but avid reader of tech news back then, is basically accurate.

now, before i say anything and to keep DrO from admonishing me, let me say i love winamp, and its the player that suits me. i have used others, but winamp is the only one i find fun to use, and that i want to use. thats important. for playing music on the computer, its tops.

but winamp has fallen down. i'm fine with blaming AOL too, and that certainly would seem to be in line with what frankel thinks. if i owned winamp, here's what i would do:

1. consider making as much of it as possible open source
2. create a plugin to make it a server as well as a player. think DLNA.
3. adopt a proprietary yet open source protocol as well, like slimproto, so i (or others) could sell hardware adapters that tightly integrate with winamp (beyond what dlna can do) to use it with a stereo/TV. think airplay/squeezebox, etc
4. create a plugin for a music store that tightly integrates
5. integrate winamp functions with links to a user maintained wiki
6. some kind of facebook integration (and i hate facebook)
7. some kind of winamp community plugin. i can easily imagine a system where you have a website that your winamps, be they windows, mac, or droid, are integrated with. (i've been pushing that at squeezebox, and getting nowhere, for years, and they actually have the elements in place!)

so anyway, imagine the "cloud" or website has a profile for you, and knows what you play, where you are, etc, and would even let you operate your installs remotely (even WOL via the net!) or connect directly to winamp hardware adapters. (squeezebox does that basically already) in addition it could let you connect to other profiles and so on, and users might do p2p, stream music to one another, etc... (but they maddeningly don't do this part)

8. either improve, or kill, the video handling. that is basically fubar imo, i use VLC for video.
9. adopt some standards like "accuraterip" and secure ripping.
10. vastly improve and update its art handling and the way it displays it.
11. create my own "remote control" for winamp on droid, not rely on 3rd party stuff (or buy it, since aWAR, etc, are pretty good.

imo, the biggest failing of winamp in the marketplace, was not going beyond the computer. this is what apple did, on the one side with its store, on the other with itunes, airport expresses, and apple tv. when winamp didn't do that, it lost all the momentum it had. thats why i was so glad to finally see it on another platform when it went to droid, and even better mac although that needs a lot of work.

but even there, its just a player on those platforms, its not a hardware adapter. now, with droid its basically emulating ipod, but how do i winamp on my stereo? connect my computer to it? connect my droid? no. this is why people are using apple instead.

12. another idea that basically follows those above, would be small, self contained devices of various sizes and shapes that run droid and winamp. imagine a small box that hooks up to your stereo and TV that runs a droid ver of winamp that was networked, had a cd tray, and didn't require a computer at all!? where is that product?
13. kill the pro version. go back to shareware or better yet freeware. adoptions are the main thing, make your money other ways.

winamp has so much potential, and i feel like AOL is just trying to break even with it, even if it takes eons to do so and strangles it to death by the time they do.

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Old 27th June 2012, 16:43   #13
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Well, more or less that´s what I wanted to say. I didn´t wanted to go so long writing cause english is not my native languague and I tend to be unclear.
I vote Mr Sinatra for president of Winamp! Haha.

It´s true what people say about leaving winamp´s feel as it is. For playing music is perfect.
But it´s time to evolve (in fact, it is since a long time ago). Evolution is the spirit of internet, and winamp forgot it. It´s frozen on a decade ago. Still lives, still serves it purpouse, but people evolved.

Right now I would split installation, like classic - modern, I would leave Winamp as it is, take it as base and launch a totally new interface, with new installer, new skins and new plug ins (I would put someone to convert to the new format those really usefull) and obviously adding new features (lots of them!)
People always get scared about change, so splitting installs would be the best.

In fact, I´ve had some info about something "new" going on, but is too early I think.. hope it gets somewhere (sooner than later).


PS: Finally some fire on the winamp forums!!

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Old 27th June 2012, 18:32   #14
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A very interesting article about my favorite media player.
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Old 29th June 2012, 13:26   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSinatra View Post
[...]
winamp has so much potential, and i feel like AOL is just trying to break even with it, even if it takes eons to do so and strangles it to death by the time they do.
Hi Mr Sinatra,

Your post was spot on and I also agree on some of your points:

1. Opensource parts of the code and get more of the community contributing to the development. There are lots of examples where that worked wonders such as Firefox, or GIMP or even Blender.
2. Integrate winamp with a music store -Emusic is already there and/or team up with another big player with lots of cash... (maybe google music?)
3. Set standards on the ripping such as accurate rip and secure ripping
4. Update and improve the art handling (there are lots of good software out there - I may recommend teaming up with the brilliant and free desktop program CD Art display)
5. Social networks are here to stay and even if I find it silly sometimes, there are lots of opportunities in leveraging these. Winamp already has Orgler as plugin - why not link that with your Facebook profile? You share your playlist on your profile and let others know you use Winamp. That's how you can get more users for Winamp and get some advertising revenue
6. Improve the offering on Shoutcast.com and get some more compelling content there

I am not convinced however on Winamp hardware. Microsoft has lots of cash behind Zune and the result was just dire (which is a mild term to describe the failure). Maybe later on.

The freemium model works. A recent survey by Opswat in March 2012 indicated that two antivirus lead in terms of users over big players such as Symantec,etc. They are Avast and Avira, both free software and working a premium business model. The point here is to create more compelling premium features for Winamp.

What I take from the Ars Technica article is there are people who believe in Winamp (like Geno Yoham) Most of all, you need more people like him with vision to lead Winamp. That may be possible if AOL is out of the picture and since it has been selling its patents couple of months back, this outcome may be likely.

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Old 29th June 2012, 16:20   #16
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well, let me explain my thinking on the hardware a bit...

what made itunes so dominant, imo, was not the itunes store. yes, thats where their income came from eventually, but the mindshare was won when itunes was linked to ipods. thats what the gamechanger was. the mindshare increased with iphones, and eventually basically all apple devices via airtunes then airplay.

winamp, as of right now, only has an app on droids that the user has to DL. they need winamp hardware, and not to compete for money, but to compete for mindshare. sure, microsoft has money and clout, but they have no cachet. everyone has the same perception of them, a big lumbering ox that in general sucks. even the name "zune" is so friggin LAME. no wonder they fail. and they don't even attempt airplay or streaming in a meaningful way.

if you believe in pairing winamp with a google store, why not google hardware? i'd love to see google buy winamp, b/c unlike AOL, i think they'd know how to do winamp. it could be the default audio player on all droids. call it GooAmp.

but even if winamp went it alone, i'd be willing to pay ~ $200 for a displayless box with HDMI that i could hook up to my stereo and TV, that would run droid, be networkable, and use winamp as a player, and also stream my media stored elsewhere on my network. DroidTV, winamp style. then i use my computer or droid phone to control it. basically, just think appletv with more power. then the same thing without TV to mirror airport express. (to be clear, the device would be both standalone capable, and streaming capable)

if winamp had such an ecosystem, it could compete in a legitimate way for mindshare with apple. it doesn't have to win, it merely needs to be a legitimate alternative. many people are allergic to apple, but there is no legit alternative to it. winamp right now, can't even stream from computer to winamp on droid. it is not seen as a fully developed, legitimate, ecosystem competitor to apple, and thats what it needs, imo, to really be meaningful.

otherwise its just a slow, steady decline to nowhere.

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Old 30th June 2012, 16:58   #17
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Comments from another long time user. I remember using Winamp back in the 1990s. I love it for being a small product concentrating on doing the core things well. Without bloat.

Please - no more "social media" stuff in here. If you want Facebook, then write a plugin. There is enough Social Media stuff already with experiments like Orgler and those "More Info" buttons. Items I always deselect in any installation I do.

Aren't there already "now playing" plugins for ICQ, MSN, etc? So an Facebook\Twitter update logically can be done using the same model. No one at Nullsoft need to waste their valuable time on that gimmick. You can write the pluggin yourself now.

The choice of Winamp having OPTIONAL components is a rare gem. It allows us, the user, to really choose exactly how our Media Player looks and acts. Excellent. Us users can choose our own "bloat" if we want it.


Maybe I am odd, but I like privacy. I don't want links to "social" networks in what is a Brilliant music player. I don't have a link from my Hifi to Facebook, so why would I want one in Winamp?

Ditto with the store. itunes should be a good example here - that media player is locked into ONE store. So no buying stuff from Amazon, etc. It's all about that single Apple shop. And selling. The Media player is almost an after thought. To me, Winamp is a Media PLAYER first. Not a Media SHOP. I use it to PLAY and organise my music collection. And it is brilliant at that.

There is nothing stopping you using iTunes on a PC to buy music, which you then organise with Winamp. Ditto Amazon and other stores. (I don't buy MP3s so don't know how the other stores operate)


With the Arsetechnica article it is noticeable from even the title that the guy doesn't use Winamp much. MP3 player? It is sooooo much more than that.

The more I read through, the more it looks like this is just a "stir up a reaction" type article. An excuse for some historic bitching. More an article having a dig at AOL and business tactics instead of being anything constructive. (And I totally ignored the comments when I saw the "editor's pick" was such a clueless rant)


And PLEASE can we stop with the "XXX company should open source the product" The trouble is, when someone says that it is clear that they have never been involved with writing a real program for a real company. Examples of "firefox, GIMP, Blender" are not comparable in any way. These STARTED life as Open Source software. You can't just take licensed code like Winamp and "open source it". This is where your Pro fee goes - to pay for the licensing of MP3 ripping, H.264 playback, and so forth.

You don't need to "open source it". If you want to make an improvement, then write a pluggin. Calls for "open source it" often come from people who don't fully understand the term, and usually aren't a programmer who can put in development time anyway.

(I am not having a personal dig at posters above who suggested the Open Source idea... I am having a dig at the concept that a product can just be given away like that. Name me a successful product that has gone from closed to open source successfully...)

Let's stick to sensible ideas that can be achieved.

As to items like "album art flow" - isn't that kind of thing available through the ClassicPro skin system? I know I have downloaded it before on one of my Media PCs (and then went back to the normal Winamp skins as I preferred them)
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Old 30th June 2012, 22:01   #18
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"Cover flow" is not available in any way for winamp (there was a plugin once, but never worked ok). Anyway, that was just one idea, I named others, like tabbed and more sophisticate playlist, new views on ML, etc.

"My" ideas are more "visual" and MrSinatra´s more "practical". There is a lot that can be done, developers passiveness is not the worst part, lack of space is! I mean, there WAS a big space, a big room 10 years ago, but now it´s getting small for what is needing.
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Old 1st July 2012, 16:15   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Batter Pudding View Post
Comments from another long time user. I remember using Winamp back in the 1990s. I love it for being a small product concentrating on doing the core things well. Without bloat.

Please - no more "social media" stuff in here. If you want Facebook, then write a plugin. There is enough Social Media stuff already with experiments like Orgler and those "More Info" buttons. Items I always deselect in any installation I do.

Aren't there already "now playing" plugins for ICQ, MSN, etc? So an Facebook\Twitter update logically can be done using the same model. No one at Nullsoft need to waste their valuable time on that gimmick. You can write the pluggin yourself now.

The choice of Winamp having OPTIONAL components is a rare gem. It allows us, the user, to really choose exactly how our Media Player looks and acts. Excellent. Us users can choose our own "bloat" if we want it.


Maybe I am odd, but I like privacy. I don't want links to "social" networks in what is a Brilliant music player. I don't have a link from my Hifi to Facebook, so why would I want one in Winamp?
indeed, you are odd, and for that matter so am i. just b/c we don't like that stuff personally, doesn't mean it would not be a good business decision to engage it.

without me responding to every line, let me just say the following:

of course everything should be optional, and i have np with enabling things via plugins, as long as the API gives you enough access to the core app to integrate it tightly. it has to look seamless.

what i was suggesting was deeper than that though. imagine you and i were "friends" via winamp.com and i then played music to you, or you called on my library. imagine we could share ratings, etc... yes, YOU may not want to do that, but lots of people would. anything that engages people to interact with each other on a shared interest via apps and websites (and hardware?) is good for that provider. winamp could rise from the ashes.

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Ditto with the store. itunes should be a good example here - that media player is locked into ONE store. So no buying stuff from Amazon, etc. It's all about that single Apple shop. And selling. The Media player is almost an after thought. To me, Winamp is a Media PLAYER first. Not a Media SHOP. I use it to PLAY and organise my music collection. And it is brilliant at that.

There is nothing stopping you using iTunes on a PC to buy music, which you then organise with Winamp. Ditto Amazon and other stores. (I don't buy MP3s so don't know how the other stores operate)
itunes is a great example, OF SUCCESS.

again, make an API, and let plugins to any store be written. but that shouldn't prevent winamp from partnering with someone and making it part of the normal package. (and yes, still optional)

i would never use it either, b/c i don't buy mp3s, (i might buy FLACs tho, if they were available), but others would. more money means more resources for the player.

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Originally Posted by Batter Pudding View Post
With the Arsetechnica article it is noticeable from even the title that the guy doesn't use Winamp much. MP3 player? It is sooooo much more than that.

The more I read through, the more it looks like this is just a "stir up a reaction" type article. An excuse for some historic bitching. More an article having a dig at AOL and business tactics instead of being anything constructive. (And I totally ignored the comments when I saw the "editor's pick" was such a clueless rant)
i'm not sure where you get that from? the article seemed to be fairly accurate and even handed. i don't think there was much in there that Frankel would disagree with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Batter Pudding View Post
And PLEASE can we stop with the "XXX company should open source the product" The trouble is, when someone says that it is clear that they have never been involved with writing a real program for a real company. Examples of "firefox, GIMP, Blender" are not comparable in any way. These STARTED life as Open Source software. You can't just take licensed code like Winamp and "open source it". This is where your Pro fee goes - to pay for the licensing of MP3 ripping, H.264 playback, and so forth.
you could open source what is not licensed. those items are dlls not part of the core app. from what i understand, the replaygain calculator they use is open source, as an example. what i suggested was they open source what COULD be open sourced. i doubt at this point, outside of what they have licensed, there are any trade secrets they need to protect.

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Originally Posted by Batter Pudding View Post
You don't need to "open source it". If you want to make an improvement, then write a pluggin. Calls for "open source it" often come from people who don't fully understand the term, and usually aren't a programmer who can put in development time anyway.

(I am not having a personal dig at posters above who suggested the Open Source idea... I am having a dig at the concept that a product can just be given away like that. Name me a successful product that has gone from closed to open source successfully...)
http://pooteeweet.org/blog/1548

https://www.virtualbox.org/wiki/Editions

firefox was based on mozilla which was based on netscape, which began life as closed.

OSX is built on top of unix, and open sourced Darwin, and ALAC just went from closed to open. Unix itself gradually went closed to open.

staroffice became openoffice, and even the internet itself started in the DoD.

a product can be given away, and support a business model. that is not controversial, as many such example of that exist. thats a different argument though, then going closed to open.

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Let's stick to sensible ideas that can be achieved.
ah, i see. good to know you are the arbiter of what is and is not "sensible."

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Old 2nd July 2012, 00:17   #20
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new views on ML
such as?

-daz
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Old 2nd July 2012, 00:32   #21
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you could open source what is not licensed. those items are dlls not part of the core app. from what i understand, the replaygain calculator they use is open source, as an example. what i suggested was they open source what COULD be open sourced. i doubt at this point, outside of what they have licensed, there are any trade secrets they need to protect.
this has been gone over so many times. open sourcing is not a magic bullet to get things all lovely and wonderful. yes in some cases it works well but it takes a lot of time and the most importing aspect is that people have to want to do it (for free in most cases).

so you need people to be interested in doing and wanting to work on it - that is already lacking for people to make plug-ins and skins so open sourcing is unlikely to help on that respect. i've had requests to open source my plug-ins but it generally has been from someone who knows someone who can code and they want to get the coder to do something because i don't have the time but they've not asked the coder yet type scenarios. that sort of thing is of no use to anyone and i think it would be the same again.


another example is all the people saying the code is crap - how can they know what the code is like if they haven't seen it? yes some code goes back to Justin's time, some is fresh as of an hour ago, but a lot of what is in there is fine and does the job it is meant to do, is just some aspects where things like error handling are not as complete as they should be - that does not make it instantly 'crap' code (though am sure someone will counter-argue that) but just code which needs a bit more time to make it complete or make it work in new scenarios it was not originally designed to cope with.

additionally, how can you code something 10years prior to a new feature being added which you don't know about? and most of the time older code will be updated as needed to work in a better manner if it won't break things or is needed for security fixes, etc. it's almost like you cannot win whether you don't touch it and leave it broken or fix it and have to break things (like some of the forced security updates last year caused with older plug-ins which assumed certain characteristics which were always implementation details and could be subject to change.


then you have the issue of who / what / how things are managed or do we get into what seems to commonly happening of forking and then that being forked since some people don't like the direction of the new fork and it just becomes a litter of half-arsed attempts and dead-forks.

i am not saying that it cannot be helpful but someone needs to manage what comes back or however it would be setup since in all honesty i could see some plug-ins being open sourced, they get messed with for a bit and end up in a worse state than where things started and then everyone bitches about it - that would defeat the purpose of doing it.


and really as it's always been, if people don't like how things work, write a plug-in to replace things. library - plug-in. podcasts - plug-in. history -> plug-in. mp3 support -> plug-in (point made?? ).

yes some people did show interest in doing such things but there just isn't that sort of interest if you can either work for hours making something for Winamp and basically have to give it away for free since that is what is expected (how many shareware plug-ins never took off or even worse just got pirated) or you do the same but on an iOS or Android app and you can charge for things and actually get a decent return. hell if i had the time and appropriate device(s) then the later is what i'd do if i was coming at things fresh.


either way, it's all just procrastinating and i just wish that all of the effort people in this thread and on all of the comments and related posts about this article would instead of picked up their dev tools and started to make a plug-in or open an image editor to start making a new skin rather than moaning about things that are what they are and probably won't change (like all of the people calling it WinAmp, WinAMP, WINAMP or any other combination - it's been just bloody "Winamp" for 9+ years *shrugs* ).

-daz
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Old 2nd July 2012, 01:12   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrO View Post
such as?

-daz
Like these:

http://forums.skinconsortium.com/ind...5824#post25824
(main post and last links)

I would add, to be more specific:
- Tighten covers so you can have more in less space (0 space between covers).
- Similar to that but with one ocupping the space of 2 or 3 columns (could be use to group albums from the same artist, for example). Like this (quick mix).
- In "stacks". Like this (quick mix).

Maybe cPro is an ideal "platform" to add this sort of things, but I´m not sure how much of it is possible with winamp current state..
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Old 2nd July 2012, 01:39   #23
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there was a post from one of the original devs that explained why it's not possible to have transparency on the library (was probably be francis but i'm out of time to look into such things). as for the links in the last post, you probably could get most of that done (as some view modes were already done by the "image in winamp" plug-in - am wondering if that was the one you referred to), or could just be started over as a new plug-in. but like with anything, you need to find someone with an interest to do such things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Victhor View Post
I would add, to be more specific:
- Tighten covers so you can have more in less space (0 space between covers).
- Similar to that but with one ocupping the space of 2 or 3 columns (could be use to group albums from the same artist, for example). Like this (quick mix).
- In "stacks". Like this (quick mix).
#1 - that is more likely to happen compared to the rest
#2 - sounds a bit metro-ui like though i can see that being a nightmare to code (the library artwork is just a custom drawn listview and i don't think that its possible without possibly implementing a custom control (aka takes time and is going to be buggy to start with)
#3 - pretty much the same as #2

with #2 and #3, you could just have someone make a proper plug-in (none of the cPro 'fake' plug-in stuff), just that you'd need to find someone (and personally i cannot stand either of those view arrangements - at best you might stand a chance of me looking into #1).

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Maybe cPro is an ideal "platform" to add this sort of things, but I´m not sure how much of it is possible with winamp current state..
cPro is just something which interacts with the existing modern skinning engine and (am sure it'll be disagreed with), core functionality needs to work the same be it in a modern or a classic skin. as all of the views in the library are effectively skin independent, then things would need to be done in the actual plug-in rather than in the skin.

-daz
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Old 2nd July 2012, 03:20   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrO View Post
such as?

-daz
here are 3 suggestions that could be done without writing a new single line more of code:

http://forums.winamp.com/showthread.php?t=336223

here are 2 suggestions where at least one of them would be trivial:

http://forums.winamp.com/showthread.php?t=321063

another small change:

http://forums.winamp.com/showthread.php?t=304788

and prob OT but i'll throw these in too:

http://forums.winamp.com/showthread.php?t=331804

http://forums.winamp.com/showthread.php?t=334897

btw DrO, i know you disagree with me re: open sourcing, but i trust its ok for me to have a different opinion?

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Old 2nd July 2012, 05:35   #25
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@DrO:
All I said are just ideas, fancy things, just new ways to interact with my music collection, and never thinking about how "doable" they are within the current winamp´s structure.

BUT, this is something I think winamp ML really needs and I forgot to list, it´s doable?:
- Having waaay more info when hovering a cover, like an "Info card".

Right now if I choose to hide names, on hovering I´m only getting the complete name of the album (and it´s buggy, it doesn´t work on every album, I should post a bug report actually).
Would be really usefull to have, say; artist, full album name, # of tracks, year, etc. all in one "card". And being able to select what info I´d like to show would be perfect.


And -personally- reaching my last thoughts on this subject:

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrO View Post
either way, it's all just procrastinating and i just wish that all of the effort people in this thread and on all of the comments and related posts about this article would instead of picked up their dev tools and started to make a plug-in or open an image editor to start making a new skin rather than moaning about things...
I truly support that, but, I have one question on my mind... is it worth it?
I mean, is there any future in Winamp? Should we worry about this things if we´re in a dead end? Will we get some help if we get stucked? (I´m talking about other people than you, you´re doing a great job here but you shouldn´t be so alone!). If we try to "blend" the path winamp is currently taking... will we be standing in the way of a bussiness model or "just" in front of an idea of how music could be played on a pc/mac/mobile?

Tell me it´s worth it and I´ll infest the Wishlist forum with ideas and its corresponding design and scheme (while doing at least one cool skin per month!)!!

C´mon.. tell me one secret, something, anything that helps me to believe... to create!
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Old 2nd July 2012, 06:22   #26
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I truly support that, but, I have one question on my mind... is it worth it?
I know this question is directed at DrO and I hope he answers it.

For myself, I say keep hope alive. Anyone with the skills and time to create plug-ins or skins (to donate or sell) should just do it. Maybe others will come and 3rd party interest will revive, in spite of what management does. Of course, timely development help is critical, but does it need to be official WA support?

Satin Port has greatly increased my enjoyment of WA. Who can say what will kick start the interest of someone else.

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Old 2nd July 2012, 06:50   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrO View Post
either way, it's all just procrastinating and i just wish that all of the effort people in this thread and on all of the comments and related posts about this article would instead of picked up their dev tools and started to make a plug-in or open an image editor to start making a new skin rather than moaning about things that are what they are and probably won't change (like all of the people calling it WinAmp, WinAMP, WINAMP or any other combination - it's been just bloody "Winamp" for 9+ years *shrugs* ).

-daz
I try to help users with their Winamp issues, when I think I can, in ways I currently can.

But some bitching and moaning from time to time is human. It's also very human to rename stuff. As you know.

You have become 'attached' to Winamp over the years but you should not feel personally 'on the hot seat' for things beyond your control, especially in places where you tried to help and your help alone was not enough, imo.

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Old 2nd July 2012, 09:54   #28
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btw DrO, i know you disagree with me re: open sourcing, but i trust its ok for me to have a different opinion?
of course it and likewise on my view point on things. i only quoted your post since it was the most concise summary of that talk made in the prior few posts.

i have no issue with open source and think it's a brilliant thing as long as it is appropriate for what is wanted and i just don't think opens sourcing parts of Winamp does that.

-daz
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Old 2nd July 2012, 10:07   #29
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- Having waaay more info when hovering a cover, like an "Info card".
custom tooltips could be done to improve what is shown for the items. currently the tooltips are based on the album title and what the OS is doing itself - Winamp has not been coded to override that. so yes it's possible to an extent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Victhor View Post
Right now if I choose to hide names, on hovering I´m only getting the complete name of the album (and it´s buggy, it doesn´t work on every album, I should post a bug report actually).
as said above, if there's no album title then there's not going to be a tooltip shown. additionally if the title is small enough to show under the item then the OS handling of the tooltip won't show. that again would require doing custom tooltip handling so not just a simple change.

and when i added in the no title aspect (to try to appease some complaining users), it was the lesser of two evils to have it appear to be buggy when it is actually working correctly as per how the listview control is working according to the OS implementation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Victhor View Post
Would be really usefull to have, say; artist, full album name, # of tracks, year, etc. all in one "card". And being able to select what info I´d like to show would be perfect.
you mean basically http://nunzioweb.com/daz/tiptop.html for the artwork views i assume?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Victhor View Post
I truly support that, but, I have one question on my mind... is it worth it?
I mean, is there any future in Winamp? Should we worry about this things if we´re in a dead end? Will we get some help if we get stucked? (I´m talking about other people than you, you´re doing a great job here but you shouldn´t be so alone!). If we try to "blend" the path winamp is currently taking... will we be standing in the way of a bussiness model or "just" in front of an idea of how music could be played on a pc/mac/mobile?
whilst people use it then yes there is a future, it just may not be the future you want. personally a lot of the stuff that has come up i actually don't like (so it's probably good i don't have control over such things - the social media stuff i despise so i'd never let that in officially).

Quote:
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Tell me it´s worth it and I´ll infest the Wishlist forum with ideas and its corresponding design and scheme (while doing at least one cool skin per month!)!!
that's not the point of what this talk is all about, its about people getting up and doing something. flooding the wishlist (which has always been ignored by a lot of the dev irrespective of which era it was) won't help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Victhor View Post
C´mon.. tell me one secret, something, anything that helps me to believe... to create!
why do i have to do that?? i use Winamp, yes i have code access but that doesn't mean i can magically go in and create tons of features - everything takes time and if i had that then i wouldn't have had to put my own plug-ins on hiatus. i don't like that but if i've got freetime then i'd rather spend it with my gf than working on things on Winamp.

-daz
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Old 2nd July 2012, 10:14   #30
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I try to help users with their Winamp issues, when I think I can, in ways I currently can.
i wasn't singling out anyone specifically, it was more that the amount of effort which has gone into talking and bitching about things could have had a few decent skins / plug-ins started off. but like you say, it's easier to moan than do something.

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But some bitching and moaning from time to time is human. It's also very human to rename stuff. As you know.
i know and people seem to take my views as official when they are not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aminifu View Post
You have become 'attached' to Winamp over the years but you should not feel personally 'on the hot seat' for things beyond your control, especially in places where you tried to help and your help alone was not enough, imo.
i try to answer things as well as i can based on what i know and what is able to be mentioned. it's frustrating that other people working on Winamp generally don't reply, but then again they probably end up getting more code done (whether it's on Winamp proper or whatever else.

maybe i am too attached from spending too much time working on things, but i'm a Winamp user at the end of the day and i don't want to see it going to the dogs or filled with pointless crap as i'm entitled to think just as everyone else is about what i say.


------------------------------------------------------------------

i'm going to shut up now on things as clearly i seem to be causing more harm than good (and is probably good i've not directly commented on the features / changes suggested in the last few posts as all of them require code changes and most would be a few weeks work to get to a properly implemented setup).

-daz
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Old 2nd July 2012, 12:31   #31
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Quote:
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i'm going to shut up now on things as clearly i seem to be causing more harm than good (and is probably good i've not directly commented on the features / changes suggested in the last few posts as all of them require code changes and most would be a few weeks work to get to a properly implemented setup).

-daz
Please don't do that. I was only trying to urge you not to take some things so personally. On second thought, that is probably not possible for someone who is and has been as involved as you are.

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Old 2nd July 2012, 13:39   #32
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What amazes me is how Winamp has remained up to date and as fully featured as it is, given the limited resources AOL put into it. A deveopment team of about 4 people for a mainstream application ???. Is it any wonder no one wants to go too deeply into the legacy code.

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Old 2nd July 2012, 14:18   #33
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Ouch.. I think my english got you wrong:

Those tooltips - tiptop are what I'm talking about! But on ML!

Quote:
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that's not the point of what this talk is all about, its about people getting up and doing something...
I was just saying, like an expression of wishes but always knowing that what's really important is to get things done, or at least try.

Quote:
why do i have to do that?? i use Winamp, yes i have code access but that doesn't mean i can magically go in and create tons of...
Here you've got me totally wrong, I'm not asking you to do anything at all.
Let's say I was just asking if you know something, or if you have some personal thought about what's the best thing to do right now taking into account the player current status (winamp desktop will die soon? Will it be replaced with a "media center"? That sort of things..), anything that would throw some light of hope (or shadow) over the work ahead. Just that.

I'm too going to be more silent now, in the end I actually don't like to talk so much in the forums haha.
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Old 5th July 2012, 22:38   #34
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I figured Winamp was dying off once the forum base started declining. GD is very rare full of discussion anymore.

Winamp was very good at one thing: SHOUTcast. That's the only reason i used it for..since I don't do live streaming anymore, Winamp slowly disappeared from my system.
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Old 6th July 2012, 00:34   #35
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GD is very rare full of discussion anymore.
huh?

also, i have to say that personally, i find winamp better than ever. yes, i think there are things it should do, but as winamp on android has shown, its way too early to call the game.

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Last edited by MrSinatra; 6th July 2012 at 02:28.
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Old 6th July 2012, 03:13   #36
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huh?

also, i have to say that personally, i find winamp better than ever. yes, i think there are things it should do, but as winamp on android has shown, its way too early to call the game.
GD: General Discussions.
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