decompression WinAmp

grog · 1st July 2001, 13:51

I just had this fantastic idea. Why not have WinAmp restore a downloaded music file back to CD Quality as it plays it?

This would require WinAmp knowing exactly what was taken out (loss) during compression. It could be some form of new compression that makes this possible and/or a generalized format that carries shorthand information about the nature of the way the file was compressed from .wav format.

I hope I described this in an understandable way. If WinAmp could do this, it would get a big jump on all its competition and we would get better quality playback.

By the way, there are a couple of DSP/Effect plug-ins you can download that attempt to put lost harmonics back in.

Steven Groginsky
groginsky@yahoo.com

Wish · 1st July 2001, 18:11

Sorry to burst your bubble, but as you should know, lossy compression codecs throw away information, like JPEG compression. You cannot regain back the info that has been thrown away.

NeoRenegade · 1st July 2001, 18:28

And those plugins don't try to replace the lost harmonics. What they do is alter the song's sound so it's not so noticeable that they're missing.

grog · 3rd July 2001, 18:53

Well, thanks guys

Actually I can see how it would be very simple to put in harmonics above 16KH. Anyway, at least 1 (the one I'm using) of the 2 plugins that I know of says explicitly in the more info here on WinAmp.com that it restores lost harmonics.

In the worst possible scenario, an encoder to .MP3 could be made to include for WinAmp the methods used. I have heard that the 'lossiness' of .MP3 encoding involves taking out data that they don't think people will notice. I wish I knew what kind of data they take out. If there is no way to relate it back to the existing .MP3, then we're stuck, as you say. I really think it merits at least getting an informed opinion on it. It's a hell of an idea.

Brennan · 4th July 2001, 02:39

Nope, think about it, if the information isn't there, we can't play it. If it was there, we'd play it. We could make a guess and add the frequencies back in, but that's technically adding noise. Now, it might sound good to you, but it's still noise.

If you want a lossless codec I hear Monkey's Audio (no relation) works: http://www.monkeysaudio.com. Never tried it out myself though.

--Brennan

Scarface2k1 · 4th July 2001, 04:21

i want to see music played from a zip file

well im not trying to cross post but, this is kinda on the same lines as this thread

JWolf · 7th July 2001, 16:46

I have been downloading music compressed with Monkey's Audio and it is lossless. The compression is roughly 50-50% of the original size of the WAV with no loss in audio quality. It's great. MP3 and LQT (liquid audio) are awful because they trake out part of the music and it is noticable. Monkey's Audio comes with a Winamp plug-in so you can play .ape file fromw ithin wWinamp. Good stuff.

NeoRenegade · 7th July 2001, 19:13

I don't see the point in monkey's audio. If you make a monkey's audio file, it'll be maybe 800kbps. But you can encode an MP3 which will sound identical at 320kbps.

grog · 10th July 2001, 22:13

I just wanted to reply to your message, Brennan.

I guess I'll have to regretfully close the door on this idea. I assume that you know enough about the mp3 encoding process to be able to say definitively that data that can't be related back to the mp3 file is discarded. I would still be interested in hearing exactly what data is discarded, just out of curiosity. I know everything above 16k is thrown out, but I'd imagine that up that high is all harmonics. I think this is what gives CDs that treble clarity. From using "enhancer", I would guess that they cut out some of the low frequencies too, which would I guess be harmonics in the other direction.

You're right that without knowing specifically where the lost data goes, it's just noise.

Ah, you know, if it's all just harmonics, the plug-in will do just fine.

Thanks for your reply.
Steve

grog · 15th July 2001, 21:03

Well, now I can sleep easy. It looks like someone already thought of my idea, or I somehow latched on to theirs subconciously. Check out the following URL:

http://www.codingtechnologies.com/technology/sbr.htm

This is the company that has developed SBR technology (Spectral Band Replacement), used in the MP3Pro codec.

I *knew* I shouldn't have wasted any time before I called Microsoft

Twilightseer · 16th July 2001, 10:06

Quote:

Originally posted by Scarface2k1
i want to see music played from a zip file

well im not trying to cross post but, this is kinda on the same lines as this thread

What's the point of that ? Zip compression is literally pointless on MP3.

Scarface2k1 · 16th July 2001, 14:24

nah, i just want to do see if could be possible, sense if you can compress a wav file into a wip files then just play it as normal, meaning less HD space wasted.

peter · 16th July 2001, 15:08

1. this stuff will work under winamp3 (eg. compress mp3 file with rar/zip/whatever, change extension back to mp3, play); i need final winamp3 plugin specs first.
2. you can already compress midis, mods (new in_mod will be released soon) and wavs
3. go install win2k, convert your hdd to NTFS and use its file compression instead (all programs will read compressed files like normal ones)

grog · 18th July 2001, 23:45

The reduction in file size from .WAV to .MP3 is 11:1, and the codec uses huffman commpression just like a zip file. I organize my MP3 files under one folder into subfolders. Playlists should help organize too. I guess I don't really understand the usefulness of playing MP3s out of a zip file.

Meanwhile, back on the ranch, even though MP3Pro is a great idea, it's proprietary just like MP3, so maybe we should evaluate .OGG (vorbis.org) which is open source, as the next digital music format. Or something else that's better than MP3.

Scarface2k1 · 19th July 2001, 14:55

no i ment was to play a wav not a mp3 from a zip archive thats what i asked, and another thing tha would possible (but unlikey) if there was mabe 2 or 3 files in it i twould be some sort of a playlist in itself. but like i said unlikey

peter · 19th July 2001, 16:00

scarface: get this and this, read documentation carefully.

Cabe Bedlam · 20th July 2001, 08:24

I want MP3 Pro support in Winamp.

So far MP3 Pro sounds better than WMA 8 and all the other "next generation" codecs.

Scarface2k1 · 20th July 2001, 13:36

To PP: did really get the documentation, but found no difference after placing in the plug-ins

but anywho.... to cabe

/me yells "CROSSPOST WARNING!!!!!"

peter · 20th July 2001, 16:24

scarface: stop trolling around. if you have all the stuff, you can compress wav (with RAR for an example), change .rar extension to .wav and play. Just don't compress the same file twice.

Scarface2k1 · 20th July 2001, 19:51

ahh information needed

7th July 2001, 16:46	#7
JWolf Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Chestnut Hill, MA Posts: 6	decompression WinAmp I have been downloading music compressed with Monkey's Audio and it is lossless. The compression is roughly 50-50% of the original size of the WAV with no loss in audio quality. It's great. MP3 and LQT (liquid audio) are awful because they trake out part of the music and it is noticable. Monkey's Audio comes with a Winamp plug-in so you can play .ape file fromw ithin wWinamp. Good stuff.

18th July 2001, 23:45	#14
grog Junior Member Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 34	Play from zip The reduction in file size from .WAV to .MP3 is 11:1, and the codec uses huffman commpression just like a zip file. I organize my MP3 files under one folder into subfolders. Playlists should help organize too. I guess I don't really understand the usefulness of playing MP3s out of a zip file. Meanwhile, back on the ranch, even though MP3Pro is a great idea, it's proprietary just like MP3, so maybe we should evaluate .OGG (vorbis.org) which is open source, as the next digital music format. Or something else that's better than MP3.

20th July 2001, 08:24	#17
Cabe Bedlam Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 1	Wish list I want MP3 Pro support in Winamp. So far MP3 Pro sounds better than WMA 8 and all the other "next generation" codecs.

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1st July 2001, 13:51	#1
grog Junior Member Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 34	I just had this fantastic idea. Why not have WinAmp restore a downloaded music file back to CD Quality as it plays it? This would require WinAmp knowing exactly what was taken out (loss) during compression. It could be some form of new compression that makes this possible and/or a generalized format that carries shorthand information about the nature of the way the file was compressed from .wav format. I hope I described this in an understandable way. If WinAmp could do this, it would get a big jump on all its competition and we would get better quality playback. By the way, there are a couple of DSP/Effect plug-ins you can download that attempt to put lost harmonics back in. Steven Groginsky groginsky@yahoo.com

1st July 2001, 18:11	#2
Wish Major Dude Join Date: Oct 2000 Posts: 702	Sorry to burst your bubble, but as you should know, lossy compression codecs throw away information, like JPEG compression. You cannot regain back the info that has been thrown away.

1st July 2001, 18:28	#3
NeoRenegade Banned Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Montréal, Québec, Canada, eh? Posts: 4,083	And those plugins don't try to replace the lost harmonics. What they do is alter the song's sound so it's not so noticeable that they're missing.

3rd July 2001, 18:53	#4
grog Junior Member Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 34	Well, thanks guys Actually I can see how it would be very simple to put in harmonics above 16KH. Anyway, at least 1 (the one I'm using) of the 2 plugins that I know of says explicitly in the more info here on WinAmp.com that it restores lost harmonics. In the worst possible scenario, an encoder to .MP3 could be made to include for WinAmp the methods used. I have heard that the 'lossiness' of .MP3 encoding involves taking out data that they don't think people will notice. I wish I knew what kind of data they take out. If there is no way to relate it back to the existing .MP3, then we're stuck, as you say. I really think it merits at least getting an informed opinion on it. It's a hell of an idea.

4th July 2001, 02:39	#5
Brennan Monkey Hump Master Join Date: Apr 2000 Posts: 782	Nope, think about it, if the information isn't there, we can't play it. If it was there, we'd play it. We could make a guess and add the frequencies back in, but that's technically adding noise. Now, it might sound good to you, but it's still noise. If you want a lossless codec I hear Monkey's Audio (no relation) works: http://www.monkeysaudio.com. Never tried it out myself though. --Brennan

4th July 2001, 04:21	#6
Scarface2k1 Banned Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: i dont get out much so i dont remember Posts: 1,032	i want to see music played from a zip file well im not trying to cross post but, this is kinda on the same lines as this thread

7th July 2001, 19:13	#8
NeoRenegade Banned Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Montréal, Québec, Canada, eh? Posts: 4,083	I don't see the point in monkey's audio. If you make a monkey's audio file, it'll be maybe 800kbps. But you can encode an MP3 which will sound identical at 320kbps.

10th July 2001, 22:13	#9
grog Junior Member Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 34	I just wanted to reply to your message, Brennan. I guess I'll have to regretfully close the door on this idea. I assume that you know enough about the mp3 encoding process to be able to say definitively that data that can't be related back to the mp3 file is discarded. I would still be interested in hearing exactly what data is discarded, just out of curiosity. I know everything above 16k is thrown out, but I'd imagine that up that high is all harmonics. I think this is what gives CDs that treble clarity. From using "enhancer", I would guess that they cut out some of the low frequencies too, which would I guess be harmonics in the other direction. You're right that without knowing specifically where the lost data goes, it's just noise. Ah, you know, if it's all just harmonics, the plug-in will do just fine. Thanks for your reply. Steve

15th July 2001, 21:03	#10
grog Junior Member Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 34	Well, now I can sleep easy. It looks like someone already thought of my idea, or I somehow latched on to theirs subconciously. Check out the following URL: http://www.codingtechnologies.com/technology/sbr.htm This is the company that has developed SBR technology (Spectral Band Replacement), used in the MP3Pro codec. I knew I shouldn't have wasted any time before I called Microsoft

16th July 2001, 14:24	#12
Scarface2k1 Banned Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: i dont get out much so i dont remember Posts: 1,032	nah, i just want to do see if could be possible, sense if you can compress a wav file into a wip files then just play it as normal, meaning less HD space wasted.

16th July 2001, 15:08	#13
peter ist death Join Date: May 2000 Posts: 3,704	1. this stuff will work under winamp3 (eg. compress mp3 file with rar/zip/whatever, change extension back to mp3, play); i need final winamp3 plugin specs first. 2. you can already compress midis, mods (new in_mod will be released soon) and wavs 3. go install win2k, convert your hdd to NTFS and use its file compression instead (all programs will read compressed files like normal ones)

19th July 2001, 14:55	#15
Scarface2k1 Banned Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: i dont get out much so i dont remember Posts: 1,032	no i ment was to play a wav not a mp3 from a zip archive thats what i asked, and another thing tha would possible (but unlikey) if there was mabe 2 or 3 files in it i twould be some sort of a playlist in itself. but like i said unlikey

19th July 2001, 16:00	#16
peter ist death Join Date: May 2000 Posts: 3,704	scarface: get this and this, read documentation carefully.

20th July 2001, 13:36	#18
Scarface2k1 Banned Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: i dont get out much so i dont remember Posts: 1,032	To PP: did really get the documentation, but found no difference after placing in the plug-ins but anywho.... to cabe /me yells "CROSSPOST WARNING!!!!!"

20th July 2001, 16:24	#19
peter ist death Join Date: May 2000 Posts: 3,704	scarface: stop trolling around. if you have all the stuff, you can compress wav (with RAR for an example), change .rar extension to .wav and play. Just don't compress the same file twice.

20th July 2001, 19:51	#20
Scarface2k1 Banned Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: i dont get out much so i dont remember Posts: 1,032	ahh information needed