Americans kill and injure 120 Afghan innocents!

[. - .... .- -. ....]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/wor...00/2079565.stm


Makes a change from the usual posts here - "More than 120 people are reported to have been killed or injured by a US bombing raid in southern Afghanistan."... read on....

[Bilbo Baggins]

Not only do they slay a wedding a party, they threaten to destabilise the UN.

USA! USA! USA!...

[Nofx Guy]

good job US. Another unforsaken bombing brought on by your useless President. Its just like he wants to attention..and doesnt care about the so called "terrorists"...
first an american drops a bomb on some canadians because he "felt a threat" and then now this...i think the US airforce should be trained a little better on what a "threat" is...

[apollos]

I think someone needs to tell the fool that its not an arcade game where everyone goes home and all ends well.. its real life..

what a loser your president is. You can sure pick em

[Aeroe]

shame though, i guess when heavy weaponry it shot in the air near US airplanes it becomes hostile.
a mortar misfired at another wedding in pakinstan killing scores there as well. it's not a very intelligent tradition anyways.
a bigger shame: "Sorry Bilbo Baggins is a moderator/admin and you are not allowed to ignore him or her."

the U.N. deserves to rot, i'm sick of it's land grabbing, NWO determined nazis in charge there.

and i'm sure president bush is entirely in fault for those planes colliding in germany as well huh?

[Aero Zeppelin]

Originally posted by ethan_h
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/wor...00/2079565.stm


Makes a change from the usual posts here - "More than 120 people are reported to have been killed or injured by a US bombing raid in southern Afghanistan."... read on....

It's not 120! That's 20. Big difference. ANyway, I read this on a shirt:

Bush
+Dick
FUCKED

[fwgx]

I found the fact that it lasted several hours with many palnes dropping bombs quite frightening.

Also it's usualy te US which holds up the UN in that the UN is next to useless without the US - a sad state of affairs in my opinion.
also this troubles me.

edit: wrong link

[patroclus22]

Afghans often fire guns in the air during weddings and other celebrations.

Ok, you're in a plane, and people are shooting at/near you. How can you not assume this is a threat?

And as for the International Criminal Court: They're trying to make self-defense illegal. If someone is about to attack the US, we have every right to smack them down hard before they can do it, without worrying about whether or not the UN approves.

[deathazre]

Okay, I'm sick and tired of hearing all this stuff. First off, people leave out parts of the facts. If you were in court, you could get nailed for perjury for that. Second off, you can't effectively fight a war without killing innocent people.

i guess when heavy weaponry it shot in the air near US airplanes it becomes hostile.

Bullets, mortars, etc. do not have brains. they travel in a set path at a set speed, no matter what is in front of them, be it nothing but air or a vital part of a US aircraft.

[deadrabbit]

the US Army killing innocent people? What a surprise, it's a great tradition, Civil War, WW I, WW II, Korean War, Vietnam War, Gulf War . . . I need to expatriate soon . . ..

[ctn|chrisw]

Hey what do u expect? Do u expect us to send afgan flowers and chocolates?

[compupc1]

I agree with what others here have said. In war, when you're being shot at, there's simply not time to investigate and make sure the people shooting are trying to kill you or not. About all you'd have time to do is radio HQ and request permission to fire back, but in a situation like this, would they have any better idea? If bullets fly from a known hostile area, you shoot back. I don't think anyone is happy that the innocent died, but I believe most will acknowledge that civilian casulaties are a simple fact of war. It ain't pretty, but it does happen and when you're being shot at, you don't have much of a choice. If you were in that officer's place, would you have not shot back because you were afraid of killing a non-combatant? If you took that attitude, you'd loose every war. We'd be a part of Britain, or maybe we'd be under Nazi rule.

We appologized, which was the right thing to do. But, the over there they'll simply have to learn from the incident and perhaps not fire guns at weddings anymore.

[. - .... .- -. ....]

Originally posted by AeroLed286

It's not 120! That's 20. Big difference. ANyway, I read this on a shirt:

Bush
+Dick
FUCKED

Might I suggest that you read before you post?

"More than 120 people are reported to have been killed or injured by a US bombing raid in southern Afghanistan."

Is it not quite possible that 20 were killed, while another 100 remain injured???

And according to this mornings papers, the death toll now stands at over 30.

[Curi0us_George]

"Afghans often fire guns in the air during weddings and other celebrations."

What the hell is wrong with people like that? It's dangerous as hell to fire a weapon into the air even when there aren't airplanes flying overhead. When you've got military raids going on nearby, I'd think common sense would tell you not to fire into the air.

I'm sorry innocent people were killed, but honestly, it happens. There's no way around it.

[Xerxes]

The big problem now is that anytime a mistake is made they are going to take soldiers to court... this will screw up everything bigtime, and the afghans know this.

What now when any enemy, no matter how nefarious, surrounds himself in civilians?

[. - .... .- -. ....]

Originally posted by Curi0us_George
"Afghans often fire guns in the air during weddings and other celebrations."

What the hell is wrong with people like that? It's dangerous as hell to fire a weapon into the air even when there aren't airplanes flying overhead. When you've got military raids going on nearby, I'd think common sense would tell you not to fire into the air.

I'm sorry innocent people were killed, but honestly, it happens. There's no way around it.

I've seen the same done in Georgia on New Years eve.... I guess your geographical location has a bearing on the rights or wrongs of your actions now, huh.

[Indyrod]

Originally posted by ethan_h


I've seen the same done in Georgia on New Years eve.... I guess your geographical location has a bearing on the rights or wrongs of your actions now, huh.

Bullshit, you seem to forget the US is at War in Afgan. STILL, and much longer if necessary. Regardless of the Afgans not being mental giants, it's still INSANE to being firing fireworks and weapons into the skies, where our military aircraft are flying. That was a tragic incident, nobody says any different, but the Afgans have to accept a degree of responsibility for lack of common sense, if nothing else.

[deathazre]

Originally posted by ethan_h



Might I suggest that you read before you post?

"More than 120 people are reported to have been killed or injured by a US bombing raid in southern Afghanistan."

Is it not quite possible that 20 were killed, while another 100 remain injured???

And according to this mornings papers, the death toll now stands at over 30.

yes, but read the topic...
/me slaps ethan_h around a bit with a small guppy

[. - .... .- -. ....]

deathazre, I don't see anything wring with the title...

Originally posted by Indyrod


Bullshit, you seem to forget the US is at War in Afgan. STILL, and much longer if necessary. Regardless of the Afgans not being mental giants, it's still INSANE to being firing fireworks and weapons into the skies, where our military aircraft are flying. That was a tragic incident, nobody says any different, but the Afgans have to accept a degree of responsibility for lack of common sense, if nothing else.

That has to be one of the most backward and ignorant comments I have seen in a long time. By "mental giants" I assume you are referring to their intelligence - the fact being that they are Afghan, therefore they are stupid. Attitudes like that is the reason that black people were sitting at the back of the bus until 50 years ago.

It might be a good idea to remember that your military aircraft were flying in their airspace, over their homes. They were carrying out a tradition that dates back before any conflict with the US, and it was ultimately a screw-up of the American Airforce, and nobody else, that caused their deaths.

It seems strange that an indident on your home ground is an "act of terrorism", yet if it happens somewhere else it is a "tragic incident". By your logic, if the WTC attack took place on July 4th, Americans would "have to accept a degree of responsibility for lack of common sense" firing all those rockets into the air...

[BMWboy]

might I point out that the US is doing its best to keep the civilian casulties down, when. If we didn't care about the civilians, we would have nuked the country a long time ago. Fireworks looks alot like flak, and bullets, regardless of the intention of the person firing the gun, are still bullets. when you are at war, you can't stop to ask who is firing at you and why are they firing, or you would be the worlds most ineffective fighting force. deaths like these are part of war. In WWII, a flight of german planes accidently dropped some bombs on London, killing about 100 people. The British response was to go on a campagin of "terror bombing," or attacking cities (with little strategic value) with the intention of killing civilians. It lead to an attack on Dresden(may have mispelled that). British planes fire bombed the german city with over 1,000 planes in a one week period, causing over 100,000 deaths in the ensuing fire. Until we do something like this, I don't want to hear about it.

and need I remind you, on Sept. 11, the US lost over 2,000 people just because they were standing in the wrong place at the wrong time. They were not firing automatic weapons into the air with enemy planes patroling the skys above. they were not launching fireworks with enemy planes in the sky above them. they were just sitting down at their desks, about to start another day on the job.

[. - .... .- -. ....]

Originally posted by BMWboy
might I point out that the US is doing its best to keep the civilian casulties down, when. If we didn't care about the civilians, we would have nuked the country a long time ago.

No - if the US didn't care about politics, they would have nuked the country a long time ago. What is it with people that think it's possible to nuke other countries indiscriminately, without having ramifications that will echo around the world??? Regardless of the obvious threat of nuclear fallout, I'm sure that other powers around the world wouldn't be too impressed that a nation which is currently trying to convince all others to scale down their nuclear arsenal, takes out an entire country due to a minority terrorist group there.

Fireworks looks alot like flak, and bullets, regardless of the intention of the person firing the gun, are still bullets. when you are at war, you can't stop to ask who is firing at you and why are they firing, or you would be the worlds most ineffective fighting force.

You, of course, speaking in the sense that you have been on the receiving end of either. I know I haven't, but I do know this much: Fireworks are little more than gunpowder, powdered aluminium and magnesuim wrapped in paper, designed to leave as litle residue as possible. Flak on the other hand, is the equivalent of an airborne grenade, designed specifically to sent high-velocity shrapnel as far as possible. Flak also has a ceiling of 50,000 feet, slightly higher than any firework I've seen. Both give off completely different heat signatures, which I'm sure are easy to distinguish between by a plane who can tell missile types apart.

As for stopping "to ask who is firing at you" - you do have a certain amount of time to pass judgement when you are hurtling through the air in a 20 tonne aircraft travelling at Mach 2. The odds of a shell fired from the ground hitting such a target must be in the region of millions to one, therefore a more sensible approach would be to radio back to base and check if any activity had been reported in the area, rather than bomb the said location "just in case".

It is also interesting to note that the American pilot is claiming that he thought that the fire coming from the ground was tracking him. With what? The aforementioned fireworks?? I can see it now...

"Left a bit Abdul....a bit more.... up a bit....quick!!! Light it!!! Light it!!!! Awwww shit.... we missed it again..."

Somewhat implausible, don't you think?

deaths like these are part of war. In WWII, a flight of german planes accidently dropped some bombs on London, killing about 100 people. The British response was to go on a campagin of "terror bombing," or attacking cities (with little strategic value) with the intention of killing civilians. It lead to an attack on Dresden(may have mispelled that). British planes fire bombed the german city with over 1,000 planes in a one week period, causing over 100,000 deaths in the ensuing fire. Until we do something like this, I don't want to hear about it.

While civilian casualties are certinaly a part of war, that doesn't make it any more acceptable. I've already read about Dresden, I'm quite aware of what occured there. Albeit, the argument that "what happened yesterday is not so bad - Dresden is *bad*, and until we do something like this, I don't want to hear about it" is bordering on the rediculous. You can't justify the loss of human life by comparing it to a greater loss. I'm sure that it's not going to comfort those lying in hospital, knowing that their entire families have been wiped out in an instant.

(Point to note, I'm Irish, not British...)

And if the US is at war with Afghanistan, it might be a good idea to let Hamid Karzai know about it, since he is currently the head of Afghanistan's interim government.

and need I remind you, on Sept. 11, the US lost over 2,000 people just because they were standing in the wrong place at the wrong time. They were not firing automatic weapons into the air with enemy planes patroling the skys above. they were not launching fireworks with enemy planes in the sky above them. they were just sitting down at their desks, about to start another day on the job.

And I'll remind you that on July 1st, over thirty people were killed and many more injured by an overzealous pilot. They were sitting down, at a wedding, on what should have been one of the happiest days of their lives.

[buddy139913]

We lost over 2,000 in a couple of hours. They only lost 30 at that moment. Them fireing fireworks wasn't too great of an idea. They should've realized that we are at war, and that there are planes flying around, that could've (and did) interperate it as an attack. The pilots (probably) thought it was an attack, so they attacked back. How were they to know it was just a wedding?

[BMWboy]

When you are in an airplane, and you think someone is firing at you, you do not have a very long time to find out what is going on. it probably would have taken more than an hour to find out that there was a wedding going on. there was anti-aircraft artillery present in the vicinity, and because the planes were not flying at 50,000ft(they would have never seen or heard a damn thing at that altitude) they were most likly close to the deck, flying subsonic, not supersonic(has a tendency to break windows and generally piss off the people below) that makes them excellent targets for whoever might want to shoot at them. below 1,000ft, certian types of fireworks would look like a missle before they exploded and like flak after they exploded. and both fireworks and flak work on the same princeple, launch someting into the air, it expoldes and fills the air aroud it with metal. while their purpose is quite different, and while fireworks pose little or no threat to aircraft, when you see a streak of light being fired into the sky in your general vicinity, you turn as hard as you can, and go to full throttle, you don't stick aroud to see if it turns after you or explodes.

And, I know you are Irish, not British, but what I was pointing out is that what occured here was an accident, a single stray bomb, and here you are making a huge fucking fuss about it. and that what happened there was deliberate, with over 3000 times the casutlies, but few people know about it, because nobody makes a big deal about it. And war is hell, and mistakes do happen. and if Ireland was in the position the US is in, and that was an Irish pliot, not a US pliot, the result would have been similar.

By your logic, if the WTC attack took place on July 4th, Americans would "have to accept a degree of responsibility for lack of common sense" firing all those rockets into the air...

This is just absurd. I tried to say someting about it, but I realized that this sentance is so stupid that there is no good response to it.[EDIT]Please do not interpret this as flaming, I do not think that you are stupid, in fact, I think you are quite smart, but we are all entitled to one stupid thing every now and then, no matter how smart we are[EDIT]

[. - .... .- -. ....]

Okay then, for the sake of argument, lets do the maths on this for a second....


First, did our pilot in question detect the fireworks/missiles before he saw them detonate? Radar will barely register a solid, person sized mass, and only if the object is in its direct path. Therefore, in order for him to have detected this firework while in flight, it would have to be about my height, and weigh approximately 300 lbs. And there's a lot of those floating around the place.

He didn't hear this thing being launched, and I doubt if he heard it detonate, given that there are two jet engines behind his head. Therefore he must have seen it detonate.

Assuming that out plane is travelling well into the subsonic speeds (don't want to piss anyone off... shoot them yes, piss them off no), we'll take that speed to be 500 MPH.

(500 * 5280) / 3600 gives us a speed of an average speed of 733 feet/sec


Now lets just hope that said pilot radioed base to see what they thought..

<Pilot> Pilot to base, we have a bit of a problem here. I'm seeing funny bright flashes in the sky, which *might* be mortar fire. Has there been activity in the area over the past few days???

<Base> Thats a negative on any activity. No reported activity in the area...

<Pilot> Any idea what I should do, Base???

<Base> Fucked if we know....

<Pilot> Thanks for that, base. I'll turn around and take a look-see. Have the kettle on when I get back.

How long would that conversation have taken? A minute perhaps?? In that minute the plane would have travelled

(60 * 733) / 5280 , or 8.3 miles. And this is assuming that the pilot didn't take the recommended course of action of pulling back the throttle and gaining as much altitude as possible to allow room to manoevure (A pilot doesn't roll until he has enough room between him and the ground to do so). If we had fireworks capable of travelling 8.3 miles, we'd either have a DIY balistic missile, or the first civilian in space. It also means that our pilot must have circled back in order to pass over the wedding again, and if he did, it wasn't to take a photo of the happy couple.

The point I'm trying to make it that it is a "big fucking deal", as you so eloquently put it. Accident it may be, but the bomb did not fall out of it's cradle on its own, a button was pressed by the pilot, in either an act of aggression, or more likely, as a result of orders that he was given by someone higher up in the chain of command.

It was bad decision making, pure and simple, and in a war where civilian lives are at risk, there is no room for error. If you're not sure, you check again, and again, until you are sure. I can't see the logic in bringing up an incident that happened over 50 years ago, and comparing it to current events in terms of public reaction. Also, there have been countless books written about Dresden, as you will see if you do a quick web search.

I'm also aware that my comment that you quoted is absurd. Saying that civilians somehow invited their own deaths by firing into the air??The reasoning behind it is rediculous, I completely agree. But it wasn't my reasoning, which you'll see if you read back a few posts...


[edit]Not being interpreted as flaming, but I posted that absurd comment in an effort to highlight the implausibility of certain reasoning here...[/edit]

[ElChevelle]

First off!

I am a REAL AMERICAN, unlike our dumbass, travel from city to city, make a speech everyday president.
FUCK BUSH, didn't vote for his ass.

Secondly, I did not order this mission and think our "war" in Afghanistan ended months ago. TIME TO LEAVE is overdue.
PLEASE do not group all Americans into this category of warmongers and egotistical policers of the world.

I'm sick and tired of my country policing other countries and civil wars.
I'm sick and tired of us giving aid to everyone who asks for it.
If you have sick and hungry, get in line! We have our own problems here in our own country.

[zootm]

i'm with ethan on this one- people who are complaining about the afghans firing in the air at weddings, take this to note - there is a good reason that hand-held weapons are not used to shoot down planes - they're simply not capable of it... *if* the pilot saw the gunfire, they still require authorisation to fire, as afhanistan is not, on the whole, hostile. what if it'd been crossfire from their allies fighting a ground battle? they could've wiped out an entire friendly force... but then the US military seem to have always had a "kill 'em all, let god sort 'em out" attitude in these cases.

the US govt. has never cared about civilians - what they care about is how their self-styled war on terrorism will look in the papers the next morning, and how it will reflect on their vote-count the next time there is an election. if there wouldn't be a public outcry, they could quite happily carpet-bomb the whole country - no hair off of their collective backs.

as for the issue of US troops wishing immunity for their actions in the balkans, i don't have words strong enough to describe those who would knowingly do wrong, and then get the full protection from any prosecution because they are from a different country than their victims.

mistakes can happen, i can accept that. what's wrong is that the US military aren't even acknowledging that - they just want to ignore it and move on. and that's what unacceptable. and i know they've admitted their mistake, and that they have "launched an investigation" (and, most importantly, they helped airlift injured)... but will we ever hear any more of this? i want to see those responsible held responsible- that's the "justice" that they're supposed to be fighting for in this whole screwed up war.

as for all the americans who think i'm having a dig at them, i'm not - i have no problem with americans, most of the ones i know are really sound people. it's the policies of the government and military i'm upset about.

[. - .... .- -. ....]

as for all the americans who think i'm having a dig at them, i'm not - i have no problem with americans, most of the ones i know are really sound people. it's the policies of the government and military i'm upset about. [/B]

I second this completely. This isn't an issue of nationality, it is an issue of policy.

[_Blackdog_]

to everyone who flames america, you can suck my cock. sure, its really easy to critisize when your from ireland or some country like that, that doesn't have to deal with this kind shit cuz they're so small. and all you bastards in england (only the ones who are flaming are bastards, mkay? not all british are bastards.) you come from the most oppressive, ruthless, murderer of an empire the world has ever seen, so shut the fuck up. bush isn't so bad... but everytime a mistake happens he gets blaimed. i bet bush radioed those planes and said "see that wedding? go bomb it!!" i'm being sarcastic if you european elitists didn't pick up on it. the article said that they were under heavy anti-aircraft fire. dont forget that this village is home to the taliban leader omar. to tell you the truth, i wouldn't be the least bit surprised if they had an anti-air missle launcher at this wedding. they'd get bombed and make the US look like cold blooded killers. i'm not saying it happened, but it is a real possibility. second someone is going on about not being able to detect fireworks and shit. let me tell you something. if a firework hits your plane, you better fuckin believe you'll feel it. same with a gun shot. just cuz it wouldn't show up on their radar doesn't mean they didn't see/feel it. and if they did see fireworks or get hit by gun shots, they have every reason to start bombing. if you dont agree, your a fucking idiot.
Pilot-"i'm being shot at!"
Commander-"are you sure? lets land and see whats going on before we jump to conclusions"

chevelle- dont give me that crap about not voting for bush. would you really want gore in office right now? would things be better? no probably not. Bush has done a good job so far, even if you disagree about some issues like the environment. you can't win them all.

ethan- whats this shit about radioing base? maybe the conversation would go something like this?
pilot- "i'm being shot at"
base- "well, we dont know of any activity in the area. are you sure its not fireworks and gun shots from a wedding?"
pilot- "yeah, it must be, if there wasn't any activity there last week. i mean people dont move around and stuff."


thats about all i feel like typing. i dont hate europeans. i just hate europeans that hate americans. before you critisize us, put yourselves in our shoes. i remember your past. countries like england, russia and germany (just to name a few) have far worse histories than the us.

[Curi0us_George]

Originally posted by ethan_h
I've seen the same done in Georgia on New Years eve.... I guess your geographical location has a bearing on the rights or wrongs of your actions now, huh.

I didn't say anything about geographical location (okay, I mentioned living in an area with military flying overhead, and that still stands). Shooting guns into the air is always stupid. I don't care who you are.

from the article
It said several legitimate ground targets were hit, including the anti-aircraft artillery sites that had been firing.

I don't know exactly what happened, ethan, but you don't either. The article says that the US was firing on legitimate targets and a single bomb went astray. Personally, I'm willing to accept that as fact. The thought that the military suddenly decided to attack a wedding party based on some small weapons fire is conjecture. You're just accepting that Americans overreacted and tried to wipe a wedding party off the map, but you don't know that. I'm not willing to condemn their actions based on the conjecture.

I know that we didn't spend an entire night bombing that wedding party. It's not possible, because no one would be left injured; everyone would have died. I also doubt that the reaction was rash. In fact, it couldn't have been made by that pilot. Pilots must always get permission to fire, and a single pilot could not have flown around all night and attacked by himself. Fuel and bomb supplies wouldn't allow it.

I don't know whether the US story is completely true. I think it makes a lot more sense than the thought that we spent an entire night bombing a wedding.

Anyone who fires a gun into the air is still a moron.

[_Blackdog_]

Curi0us_George, you've made more sense than anyone in this f-ed up thread.

[. - .... .- -. ....]

Originally posted by _Blackdog_
Yet another well though out post by Blackdog

It's obvious that you put an immense amount of thought and effort into that post. The irony is that one or two valid points were raised there, but the fact that it is interspersed with every profanity that you could think up just makes you look like someone with all of the intellect and debating skills of an eight year old child.


Only one thing to say and it is this: If you ever post something else along those lines here again, it will be the last post you make here. And that is regardless of your nationality. If you think I'm kidding, try me.

[_Blackdog_]

ummm... why would i get banned? for swearing? i didn't think my post was too objectional.. even if you disagree. i didn't really make any personal attacks...

[. - .... .- -. ....]

Originally posted by Curi0us_George

I don't know exactly what happened, ethan, but you don't either. The article says that the US was firing on legitimate targets and a single bomb went astray. Personally, I'm willing to accept that as fact. The thought that the military suddenly decided to attack a wedding party based on some small weapons fire is conjecture. You're just accepting that Americans overreacted and tried to wipe a wedding party off the map, but you don't know that. I'm not willing to condemn their actions based on the conjecture.

I know that we didn't spend an entire night bombing that wedding party. It's not possible, because no one would be left injured; everyone would have died. I also doubt that the reaction was rash. In fact, it couldn't have been made by that pilot. Pilots must always get permission to fire, and a single pilot could not have flown around all night and attacked by himself. Fuel and bomb supple wouldn't allow it.

I don't know whether the US story is completely true. I think it makes a lot more sense than the thought that we spent an entire night bombing a wedding.

Anyone who fires a gun into the air is still a moron.

Good points George - I never claimed to know what happened, anything that I have proposed is just a hypothesis, and I am more than willing to accept that. Nor am I saying that the point of the mission was to obliterate an entire wedding party. I know it was an accident ofsome form or another, my point is that the problem doesn't lie in this specific incident, it lies with the chain of command that would allow such an incident to take place.

[ElChevelle]

Originally posted by _Blackdog_
chevelle- dont give me that crap about not voting for bush. would you really want gore in office right now? would things be better? no probably not. Bush has done a good job so far, even if you disagree about some issues like the environment. you can't win them all.

The previous message brought to you by an ignorant redneck

NO, dumbass, Gore's wife headed the PMRC.
On that count alone, he lost my vote.

They both can lick my massive purple helmet

[. - .... .- -. ....]

Originally posted by _Blackdog_
ummm... why would i get banned? for swearing? i didn't think my post was too objectional.. even if you disagree. i didn't really make any personal attacks...

I do disagree, as would every mod here, I'm sure.

Lets see for a sec...

..to everyone who flames america, you can suck my cock..

..and all you bastards in england (only the ones who are flaming..

..if you dont agree, your a fucking idiot..

to name just a few. If you have an opinion, then post it rationally, like everybody has so far. This is nothing to do with your opinion, your thread is one big flame, and I guarantee you that if it is repeated your account will be removed.

[Curi0us_George]

Originally posted by ethan_h
Good points George - I never claimed to know what happened, anything that I have proposed is just a hypothesis, and I am more than willing to accept that. Nor am I saying that the point of the mission was to obliterate an entire wedding party. I know it was an accident ofsome form or another, my point is that the problem doesn't lie in this specific incident, it lies with the chain of command that would allow such an incident to take place.

I can appreciate your comments, then. I thought you were saying that we spent the night bombing the wedding party. Parts of the article made it out to sound like that.

I can't explain what happened. I think it's horribly unfortunate, though, and I wish it hadn't. I also can't say that I can fault anyone, though. Sometimes things just happen. Maybe that's a cheap way out. I don't know. But, I don't think we should turn tail and run out of Afganistan just because "the threat is gone". It's not, and post-war ops are always part of the deal. They serve a lot of purposes, and I think they are quite necessary, even though they aren't always pleasant.

(This has been a rather bloodless "war" when you really look at it, though. If "911" had happened 30 years ago, there would have been far more civilian casualties.)

[ElChevelle]

I've been trying to tell everyone here in "The Genital" that unspoken rules should be held here as they apply in most bars:

NEVER speak religion or politics!
It'll always lead to a fight.
Time to lock this "I fucked your sister" thread and move on.

[_Blackdog_]

okay, so maybe i should have not used so much profanity. i'm sorry, it was wrong. it just angers me to see time and time again europeans put down americans. i know its not all europeans, so excuse my generalizations. many europeans think they are so high above americans. doesnt matter what it is. even the world cup. we did great this year. yes, we got respect from many europeans. but we also got a lot of people say things like "you got lucky. the us sucks and will always suck." whats up with that? why is there such a hatred of the us? and dont tell me that you hate our "war on terrorism" cuz many of your european countries are on in this too. they just play a much smaller role because (a. we got attacked. and (b. we are the most dominant country in international affairs.

chevelle- i'm no redneck. i, like you, am not a fan of bush or gore. but what are you gonna do? i think bush has done a decent job. i just dont like people critisizing without offering a solution. (even though i've been known to do it. ); )

thats all i got to say for now...

wait, one more thing. stop depicting americans as blood hungry red necks. we are at war, and we have every reason to be. and even if you dont think we have a good reason to be at war, what about wwi? all you europeans were fighting for no good reason. (really? what caused wwi? just a bunch of stupid little arguements that weren't worth fighting about)

[ElChevelle]

There are few of us who have anything to be proud of politically.

We've got bush (refuse to capatilize his name any longer)

The Germanians come from a long line of Hitlers and wall-builders

The Brits? Well, "Thatch" wasn't much to look at

[zootm]

Originally posted by _Blackdog_
and all you bastards in england (only the ones who are flaming are bastards, mkay? not all british are bastards.)

ummm... who from england was flaming? i think you were the first one to truly 'flame' this thread... (except possibly for the t-shirt comment)... the only person whose "from:" line (other than ethan) was a real place outside the US (from a quick scan, admittedly), was me. and i'm not from england

...also, there were several planes involved in the attack - if it was one (maybe two) planes, i could understand the "retaliatory fire" story much more easily- but surely the others could've marked the position for future operations and evaded... *shrug* whatever. i suppose a human life isn't worth much in american dollars these days.