Winamp 2.9/3/5 Discussion

[nothin2g]

Read this:
http://www.winamp.com/team/finger.jhtml?who=Justin
Wa3 Skin Support in Wa2? Will they cancel Wa3?

Sorry for bad english
~nothin2g

[Plague]

From what I've heard (might just be rumors to piss us off), the plan is to kill most of wasabi and winamp3 and instead merge winamp3 features into winamp2.
IF this is true, then FUCK YOU NULLSOFT!
This is by far the biggest mistake EVER in the history of Nullsoft (topping even AOL buying Nullsoft).

If, however, they only mean to make the transition from Winamp2 to Winamp3 smoother and less painful for Winamp2 fans, then I think it's a GREAT idea!

Until we get some REAL answers, we can only speculate..

-Plague

[Gonzotek]

The goal is to have a product that both users and developers can really like and use. Keep that in mind when reviewing what is to come. They aren't going to scrap the things that were great about either Winamp version.

-=Gonzotek=-

[Plague]

that's what I thought..
But I think the best way to go is to merge Winamp2 features into Winamp3, not the other way around!

After all, Winamp2 codebase is old, really old, and some things might not be that optimal anymore..
Also, Winamp3/Wasabi is cross-platform, while Winamp2 isn't.
And third, With Winamp3 beeing out for quite some time now, people are learning both maki/xml and wasabi. What reason could they EVER have to kill that?

-Plague

[Gonzotek]

The skinning system is staying according to what I know. That means xml/maki...I couldn't think of a way to untie maki from the system, w/o replacing it with another scripting system. WASABI is just C++ code, the best parts of it will be modified to work within the new design; and the best parts of the Winamp2 code, while old, are not unoptimizied, so why shouldn't they use this really good, working code?

[Plague]

it may be really good, but if they are going to use it, they REALLY REALLY need to make HUGE updates to it, with ALL of the great stuff from Wasabi, they also NEED to make Winamp[2&3 merge] crossplatform.

-Plague

[nothin2g]

merging wasabi into wa2 seems to me a very strange and complicated and wasabi-concept braking solution. ok, i'm no longer interested in wa2 and the only thing i really want to know is if wa3 will be canceled or not.

[Plague]

I don't care about the reaction to this, so here we go:

A little discussion on the subject, I had with Bizzy before posting in this thread:

[16:39] Plague: but I dont think they are killing wa3
[16:39] Plague: winamp and winamp3 are separate projects and justin is the creator of winamp, not winamp3.
I think this will make the step to winamp3 smoother
[16:39] Bizzy D: there making a "official" staement soon
[16:40] Plague: ye
[16:41] Plague: winamp3 is next gen, nothing they do to winamp2 can change that and in the long run, they are much better off switching to winamp3 completely... this step however, makes that transition alot less painful for people.... its like windows vs linux and the windows/linux projects floating around (lindows for example) to make the transition less painful
[16:42] Bizzy D: i already said this... justin wouldnt take it on
[16:42] Bizzy D: they already decided i think
[16:42] Bizzy D: hopefully.. brennan and francis will keep on makin wa3
[16:42] Plague: justin doesnt work on winamp3, ofcourse he want to continue with winamp2
[16:42] Bizzy D: even if its on there own
[16:43] Plague: if this step isnt meant to kill wa3, I think its a great step
[16:43] Bizzy D: there stoping wasabi
[16:43] Plague: if it is however, I think they are making a BIG mistake
[16:43] Plague: stopping wasabi?? how do you know that?
[16:43] Bizzy D: <Russ> [11:17:37] <will> so wasabi is going bye-bye?
<Russ> [11:17:55] <@rOn> apart from the skin engine, pretty much yeah
[16:44] Plague: hmmm....
[16:44] Plague: I'm not so sure about that... I mean, think of all the fucking work they have spent on wasabi
[16:44] Bizzy D: i already been through this
[16:44] Plague: wasabi is a great piece of software, it would be an incredible mistake to kill it now
[16:44] Bizzy D: <@fatmoe> Bizzy_D, its going to happend. So bitching and complain about it more, won't change it
[16:45] Bizzy D: this mistake = biggest possible
[16:46] Plague: yep... if this is whats planned, I really really really hope Brennan, francis, mig, aus, etc... break up with nullsoft, make their own company, and continue with wa3...
[16:46] Bizzy D: me too
[16:46] Plague: I couldnt be more pissed off about this mistake to happen, then I am right now
[16:47] Bizzy D: then nullsoft = bye bye cos without brennan and francis, they lost there 2 BEST programmers
[16:47] Plague: yep...
[16:47] Plague: justin and AOL (think they are the biggest villain here) need to step down
[16:48] Bizzy D: AOL need to let the programmers do what they think is best.. not what aol think is best
[16:48] Plague: exactly...
[16:48] Bizzy D: actualy... if nullsoft went shareware again.. i would be good with that.. id pay for it.. if it was the wa3 we have now but better
[16:49] Plague: yea

I posted this because I wanted to express my support for Winamp3 AND my anger towards the possibility of killing Wa3/Wasabi, or parts of it/them off.

-Plague

[Russ]

Let me start with one thing. Justin co-founded Nullsoft, he can do what he likes with any version of Winamp. He is God.

The plan is to take the skinning and scripting engine from Winamp3 (which is 80% of wasabi) and add it into Winamp 2, so the system should be faster and more efficient. The whole skinning system will still be there. MAKI will still be there.

Please please please think of this in an unbiased way:

Imagine if there was a player with the speed of Winamp 2, the skinning of
Winamp3, and a more features than either of them. This is what we are trying to achieve.

Look, people, I've got as much of an attachment to Wasabi as a coding platform than probably anyone here, but I'm willing to let it all go if it makes the experience better for the user.

Winamp3 component support in the next version of Winamp has not been ruled out, I'd like developers' opinions on that in the development forum, not here, please. Wasabi will still be developed, it's just Winamp will not be based on it.

If this means you'll get a faster player with more features, why are you against it?

[nothin2g]

Wasabi will still be developed, it's just Winamp will not be based on it.

Winamp were never based on Wasabi. Winamp3 were based on wasabi, like all official nullsofties had said over and over again ( the thing with Winamp, WinAmp, winamp3 etc etc).
So that means, mh, what does this mean for wa3 now?

[Bizzeh]

i think that the removing wa3 from wasabi and puting all wa3 stuff in wa2 is totaly fucking stupahd.. why not just ran with them as they are... all the time spent in the fromums saying "winamp2 is not winamp3" and now.. look at this...

if you are going to make everything in to 1 thing.. why not just do it in the 1st place and make life easy for every1... and if you are going to merge, why keep the name winamp cos u nearly used up the 2.xx and u cant use 3.xx cos its been killed.. so.. winamp4? nullsoft media player? what is going to happen...

Bizzy

[CraigF]

yes, please continue the buggy application versus the tried and tested one.

[Plague]

Originally posted by Russ
Let me start with one thing. Justin co-founded Nullsoft, he can do what he likes with any version of Winamp. He is God.

/me knows..
but that doesn't change the fact that not ALL of his decissions are good ones.
my first reaction to this whole thing was that Justin seemed jealous of Winamp3 and didn't want it to bring Winamp2 (his baby) to the grave.

I have a slight different opinion now, but I still need FACTS on the subject before I can change opinion completely.

The plan is to take the skinning and scripting engine from Winamp3 (which is 80% of wasabi) and add it into Winamp 2, so the system should be faster and more efficient. The whole skinning system will still be there. MAKI will still be there.

THAT's about the only thing which is clear at this point, so that's not what I'm worried about.

Please please please think of this in an unbiased way:

Imagine if there was a player with the speed of Winamp 2, the skinning of
Winamp3, and a more features than either of them. This is what we are trying to achieve.

If so, great..
However, cross-platform support is as important for me as Winamp3 is.
With that said, if your decision means that Winamp next-gen will still be completely Win32, I still think this is a really bad idea.

Look, people, I've got as much of an attachment to Wasabi as a coding platform than probably anyone here, but I'm willing to let it all go if it makes the experience better for the user.

Winamp3 component support in the next version of Winamp has not been ruled out, I'd like developers' opinions on that in the development forum, not here, please. Wasabi will still be developed, it's just Winamp will not be based on it.

Why?
Why wouldn't Winamp be based on it, if it's so good?
I just can't see any reason.
Wa2 code is old, it might be optimal, but it's still old. Which means that sometime in the future, Wasabi will be alot better to use than the Wa2 codebase.

If this means you'll get a faster player with more features, why are you against it?

I'm not against it if it means NOTHING I like in Wa3/Wasabi will disapear.

IF a hybrid between Wa2 and Wa3/Wasabi can be made, crossplatform, FULLY Wasabi-component compatible, great looks (get rid of the god damn Win32 styled windows, that are in Wa2) and with more features than any of the Winamp's available now, then I'm all for this..

But like I said, I need FACTS.
I hate when things like this happens, as the current message is: "Winamp3 will die, Winamp2 will take over! tough luck dudes!"
I understand if you don't want to reveal everything now, but the above message didn't have to be sent to us, you could have made it a little bit clearer what this means in reality.
If not to make us happy, than atleast to avoid discussions like this.

-Plague

[thepyr0x]

what a waste
a mother fucking waste
seriously, spend this much time developing WA3, and then toss only parts of it into some old, rotten wrapper and call it finished

[Plague]

Originally posted by thepyr0x
what a waste
a mother fucking waste
seriously, spend this much time developing WA3, and then toss only parts of it into some old, rotten wrapper and call it finished

EXACTLY my point!
This is the message you are sending!
If this is wrong, then for gods sake, DON'T SEND IT!

If you're surprised about us beeing pissed off, then I'm surprised about that. We've gotten to love Wa3 for everything it is and everything is it compared to Wa2.
With the message that Wa2 will be brought back as Winamp application number 1, and Winamp3 canceled, OFCOURSE we're pissed off!

Like I've said over and over, if this message is wrong, please tell us, and tell us what the REAL message is!

-Plague

[Russ]

Winamp 2 will not be brought back. It will be a completely new version, of undecided name currently.

Wasabi is not dead. Wasabi will continue to be developed. Around 80% of Wasabi is the skinning engine, which will become part of the new version of Winamp. Most of what is left is open source under the zlib/png license, and will continue to be developed.

[Russ]

Let me put these arguments together for you.

Rule 1 of business: The customer is king.
Users think Winamp 2 is better than Winamp3.
Therefore, Winamp 2 is improved on and used, and the better bits of Winamp3 added onto it. The users have decided. I tried to change their minds. But they didn't listen - they just thought it was bloat.

[will]

ok.
winamp3 is not dying.
1/2 of winamp3 is the skinning system. This will be moved into the new winamp.
1/3 of winamp3 is open source, not a lot is lost.
we think that someone will continue to develop wasabi as an applications platform.
Video support and a media library are already in there.

winamp 2 + winamp3 = winamp 5.
thats the idea. It is good.
Justin know what the fuck is best.

[nothin2g]

mh, lets hope you're doing the right thing
it was a nice time with you, wa3

[Plague]

..starting to slowly accept this move..
..also starting to slowly look forward to more official news about this new product, and the product itself..

However, still need more answers before I can say I like the idea..

The current hotlist:
1. Will the new Winamp be Win32 specific?
1a. If "no" on #1, Will the new Winamp be COMPLETELY skinned, or will it be more like Winamp2 (some win32 styled windows).
2. What about the rest of Wasabi (non skin related stuff) that's better than Winamp2's alternative? (directsound plugin, component structure of Winamp, etc..)
3. Winamp2 API, will it still be there? ie: will it have complete support for all winamp2 plugins, ASWELL as all winamp3 components?

-Plague

[Russ]

Originally posted by Plague
1. Will the new Winamp be Win32 specific?

Looking like Yes, but it's better to do one OS well as opposed to many OSes badly. Also plugin developers don't like developing for cross-platform apparently, so Win32-only is good for them too.

2. What about the rest of Wasabi (non skin related stuff) that's better than Winamp2's alternative? (directsound plugin

Directsound plugin is the same in 2.9 as it is in 3.0. Development of them is simultaneous.

component structure of Winamp, etc..)
3. Winamp2 API, will it still be there? ie: will it have complete support for all winamp2 plugins, ASWELL as all winamp3 components?

Winamp 2 plugins will be supported with an enhanced API. The rest to be decided. See here. Decent suggestions most appreciated.

[CraigF]

in regards to #1, there was never any reason for parts to not be skinned, check how albumlist does its skinning.

on another note, there are skin api changes in 2.9, however, as yet, they are only basic.

[thepyr0x]

it still just seems like such a waste
spend all this time developing WA3, get other people to develop for WA3 as well (all the components we have for it...not a huge number but still)
and then scrap half the player

What happens to, say, Sakura; which will use a custom component to control it's fading capabilities and stuff; does this mean it's going to have to be rewritten to be backwards-compatible with WA2 (yes, I do see this as a step backwards rather than forwards)

I do see the arguments you posted, Russ, and I do understand them. I just don't agree with them.

I think if anything, the decision that AOL made to force WA3 out the doors is where Winamp3 went wrong. If it had been kept to dev builds until the functionality of 2 was there, until it was useable without bugs (it is now, but it wasn't when it was announced on the front page), and until it had the easily-accessible documentation (as in within the player) for the component system and how to customize their install to be as fast as possible (possibly even a system to enable/disable components within the player); we'd be looking at a much different situation

I just think it's a huge waste of a good product

[Russ]

Agreed, although little will be wasted in the end. Component compatibility is still undecided, it may be implemented, and it's the thing I'm most interested in. See here.

[El-LoCo]

It means ya'll should stop worrying and just lean back and accept the fact that these people have created the two best players out there.

Trust in the fact that they'll create the next best thing as well.

also, don't be stupid and think it's gonna suck if it's gonna be based on 2.x, 2.x happens to be fast, stable and in the right hands (read: nullsoft) very useable.

Jeez you people are amazing, bitching about stuff you've never tried, don't know anything factfull about and all that.

Cry me a river, ktnx.

[thepyr0x]

I'm still going to use whatever they're pumping out
and I'm still going to love it

but WA3 took this long to develop, and granted that was from scratch, but by doing this they're going to throw us back into a state of limbo for who knows how long while they adapt all their skin engine code into the 2.xx wrapper

I don't know about you, but I personally wouldn't expect any of the new 2.xx parts to be fully functional for a while...even if they now have more coders (based on the idea that 2.xx coders + 3.xx coders)

also, by doing this, you ruin it for the (dumbass) anti-freeform skin people who have complained about 3.xx's skinning engine from the beginning.

[YtseJam]

A little question...
Why do you keep saying that it will have the speed of Winamp2 and the skinning abilities of Winamp3? Isn't this what made Winamp3 slow in the first place? How will using Winamp2's codebase make it faster?

[hammerhead]

I'm happy as long as everything is the same for skinners, and it'll be a plus if there is improved functionality.

[Mr Jones]

Originally posted by hammerhead
I'm happy as long as everything is the same for skinners, and it'll be a plus if there is improved functionality.

Let that read...

"I'm happy as long as everything is the same for skinners, both WA2 and WA3"

Let's not forget there is a MASSIVE community of WA2 skinners out there, with a good 40,000+ skins currently residing within the winamp database alone, I for one do not want to see this get lost in the rush to create some kind of winamp hybrid player.

Both systems have there own merits, and you will never convince some people that freeform is the way to go, some people like working on both, me for example

[Plague]

Originally posted by El-LoCo
Jeez you people are amazing, bitching about stuff you've never tried, don't know anything factfull about and all that.

I told you, this is the result when you send out a message that says "Winamp3 will die".

Q: Don't want the bitching?
A: Send a better message!

-Plague

[Plague]

Just to clear things up a bit:

I'm all for a new Winamp generation, and it CAN be a great idea to make Winamp5 (merge Wa2 and Wa3) IF Nullsoft listens heavily on us, the forumers (both the Wa2 community and the Wa3 community), and make sure that as many wishes as possible from both communitys gets implemented into this hybrid.

I will ofcourse use it nomatter how it turns out, but I'm with pyr0x on this, if not 99% of Wa3 survives in this hybrid, then Wa3 seems like a waste of time (for both Nullsoft and us). If this was planned from the beginning, then Wa3 should never had been released.

If Nullsoft plays it's cards right, this can be a great hybrid, but if they don't, ALOT of users will be pissed off and there's nothing good coming from that..

-Plague

[El-LoCo]

Originally posted by Plague
I told you, this is the result when you send out a message that says "Winamp3 will die".

Q: Don't want the bitching?
A: Send a better message!

-Plague

What, you thought winamp3 would live forever ?

Consider this good project management.

If you see a project just cant be given the manpower needed to make it what it should be, you need to shut it down and focus on something else that will end up being better due to different assets and goals.

In other words, the way I read this message is;

GOOD NEWS EVERYONE!

Simple as that. Why worry?

Besides, it's just a mp3 player

[Plague]

"Besides, it's just a mp3 player"

how can you even think that about Winamp?!
j/k

No I didn't think Winamp3 would live forever, but I thought it would live longer than ONE puny official release..

Yes, as stated in my last post, this can be great news for ALL winamp'ers but it can also be devastating news for the Wa3 community IF too much of Wa3 is lost in this process..

-Plague

[Aus]

We still plan on kicking ass.

[El-LoCo]

Originally posted by Plague
Just to clear things up a bit:

I'm all for a new Winamp generation, and it CAN be a great idea to make Winamp5 (merge Wa2 and Wa3) IF Nullsoft listens heavily on us, the forumers (both the Wa2 community and the Wa3 community), and make sure that as many wishes as possible from both communitys gets implemented into this hybrid.

Keep in mind, they've created this on their own before and I'm sure they're capable of doing so again.

However, user input has ALLWAYS been _VERY_ important, I'm confident they'll follow closely on what ya'll think.

I will ofcourse use it nomatter how it turns out, but I'm with pyr0x on this, if not 99% of Wa3 survives in this hybrid, then Wa3 seems like a waste of time (for both Nullsoft and us). If this was planned from the beginning, then Wa3 should never had been released.

This was not planed from the begning. Look at it like this, it's not man hours gone to waste, it's man hours gone into research and development. Seriously. This code here is gold and it wont go to waste. Just be patient .

If Nullsoft plays it's cards right, this can be a great hybrid, but if they don't, ALOT of users will be pissed off and there's nothing good coming from that..

It's just because of the users you mention that this is being done as other people have pointed out before me in this very thread. They know what people like about winamp3 and they know what people like about winamp2.

They also know what people dont like about the two flavors.

As I'm trying to say here, no need to worry. It's in the best of hands.

And saying stuff like 'it seems like justin is jealous of wa3' is just blatant stupid. I know stuff you dont, and this for one I know is just bullpoo. You guys should be ashamed of yourself for thinking something like that.

[Plague]

I AM looking forward to this new development, but Justins .plan brings out every Winamp3 fan's worst fears..
Until we get to see the hybrid's progress and actual facts/screenshots/etc, we still fear what can happen...

Although, if Wa3 dev team (with Brennan in the lead) and Wa2 dev team (with Justin in the lead) cooperate on a new player based on the best from both worlds with the addition of new, unseen stuff, then I do think your plan on kicking ass will be realized..

"Don't take Winamp3 away from me! No, let go! It's mine! Stop it I tell you! ... Uuuhhh, what a pretty player, ok you can have my Winamp3. Now GIMME!"

Don't mind me, I'll be back to normal once I see the progress on this new thing..

-Plague

[Plague]

Originally posted by El-LoCo
However, user input has ALLWAYS been _VERY_ important, I'm confident they'll follow closely on what ya'll think.

This is why I posted here in the first place, I wanted to get a discussion going that Nullsoft couldn't miss noticing, this way they will know for sure what everyone wants/don't want.

And saying stuff like 'it seems like justin is jealous of wa3' is just blatant stupid. I know stuff you dont, and this for one I know is just bullpoo. You guys should be ashamed of yourself for thinking something like that.

I think you misunderstood me..
I never actually THOUGHT that, Justin's work is great and I'm abig fan of both Wa2 and 3.
However, due to how little information about Winamp3's destiny there was in his .plan and the rumors that Winamp3 would die and Winamp2 would return as no#1 but with the addition of selected features from Winamp3, one can easilly draw all kinds of conspiracy conclusions..

If you read my discussion with Bizzy, you'll see that I CLEARLY say that I "don't think they are killing Wa3" and "winamp3 is next gen, nothing they do to winamp2 can change that and in the long run, they are much better off switching to winamp3 completely... this step however, makes that transition alot less painful for people.... its like windows vs linux and the windows/linux projects floating around (lindows for example) to make the transition less painful" and "justin doesnt work on winamp3, ofcourse he want to continue with winamp2".
And you can see there that nothing bad was mentioned about Justin or this move, not until the rumors started flowing and conclusions were drawn, based on those rumors..

Rumors are a dangerous thing.

With the additional facts I have now, although still not incredibly much to go on, I do see this as a potentiall good move and I am interested in seeing how this progress..

I still maintain my original position though, as in saying this could have been avoided if a little more info about Winamp3's destiny would have been added to the .plan, instead of almost only focusing on the destiny of Winamp2.

-Plague

[will]

Fact: A new winamp will be developed. Loosly based on winamp 2's platform (fast and stable platform).
Fact: This new winamp will have full native support for winamp3 skins and scripts
Fact: Wasabi is going to be developed further as an applications platform
Fact: The new winamp will have all the features you love in winamp 2 and all the features you love in winamp3
Fact: It will rock more than anything has ever rocked before

I am going to close with post with a quote from christophe:
[11:14] <rOn> believe in rOn!

[El-LoCo]

Originally posted by Plague

With the additional facts I have now, although still not incredibly much to go on, I do see this as a potentiall good move and I am interested in seeing how this progress..

I still maintain my original position though, as in saying this could have been avoided if a little more info about Winamp3's destiny would have been added to the .plan, instead of almost only focusing on the destiny of Winamp2.

-Plague

heh trust me man, I've been beta testing winamp since the age of gods, this should be good

[CraigF]

Originally posted by Plague
However, due to how little information about Winamp3's destiny there was in his .plan and the rumors that Winamp3 would die and Winamp2 would return as no#1

when was wa2 not #1?