Ogg Vorbis Encoding: I suspect...

[imforumman]

I read a thread where people kept discussing why there isn't Ogg-Vorbis-Encoding in WinAmp5.
http://forums.winamp.com/showthread.php?threadid=154054

Well, I'm not from NullSoft/AOL, but reading various sources, the most trusted being c't, there is a general "uneasyness" in the whole software industry concerning Ogg Vorbis. This is because even though the developers claim Vorbis to be patent free, and everyone trusts them not to want money, some people doubt that Vorbis does not infringe patents held by third partys, possibly even some of the same patents found in MP3.

The makers of Vorbis have gone to great lengths to prove that this is not the case, but the only way to get a final decision is to have someone who feels their patents infringed to go to court. Every minute that Vorbis is out there without somone taking that step, that someone looses credibilty. So time is working for Vorbis.

So AOL is probably just chicken, like many other companies out there.

BTW: The file-format may be called Ogg (large O small gg)), but the algorithm/codec is called Vorbis. Ogg is just the container (sort of like avi) and will also contain for example Theora data once Xiph gets it's video codec out there.

Greetings.

[CraigF]

Yes, thats what most of us suspect to be the case. However, there is no official word from Nullsoft or AOL on this issue at this time.

Thanks for the rather more detailed explanation.

[Alltaken]

what i think is stupid is that even if Vorbis was infringing a patent, a big company is not going to take anyone to court untill they find someone who has money to attack, so basicly they are sitting around waiting untill Vorbis either dies by itself, or untill it becomes really big and popular then go after everyone out there.

JPG's had a simialr thing happen, with the person who patented it wait untill his patent was almost up and then trying to sue for it. of course he failed becasue he knew about the infringment and didn't do anything despite knowing about it.

as for Vorbis, i use the other Vorbis technology of FLAC which IMO is fantastic. the pitty with flac is that i need to go and find all the codecs and stuff myself and i know that none of my friends etc... will be able to play them



Alltaken

[amano]

And why do you open a new thread? just to tell us in your first lines, where this post should have gone to?

[DJ Egg]

Because I locked it, lol

[WHEREamI]

hey! why doesn't Xiph just patent Vorbis, and not charge any royalties! that way, it would be up to the patent office to figure out if it has any patent infringments in it. I wonder if that would work.... Would still take a long time i guess, since patents take so long to go through.

~WHEREamI

[imforumman]

Originally posted by WHEREamI
hey! why doesn't Xiph just patent Vorbis, and not charge any royalties! that way, it would be up to the patent office to figure out if it has any patent infringments in it.

No, I'm afraid that wouldn't work: The patent office is only responsible for checking the obvious patent-collisions. And you just can't go and patent Vorbis as a whole, you would have to patent certain ideas contained within.

The only thing you can do, and what Xiph did, is a "patent-query". But the result of such a search is only protection from "triple damages" (having to pay the tripple licence fees for having infringed on other's patents). Single licence fees would still have to be paid in case someone can prove Vorbis infringes one of his patents.

So now it's up to the industry to accept Vorbis or not to. Vorbis is comming, many companies are already working on Hardware-Players (HDD, CD, etc) and some have even started to sell them (Neuros, iRiver, Nex, Rio).

But my guess is AOL/NullSoft is not willing to take the chance in the context of a free product.

But sooner or later Vorbis will be there, I'm sure of that: the slightly superior quality at higher bitrates and the massiv growth in quality at low bitrates compared to mp3 and its (I trust) patent free character will give it a great push and help it to at least pull even with mp3.

[DJ Egg]

Originally posted by imforumman
But my guess is AOL/NullSoft is not willing to take the chance in the context of a free product.

But sooner or later Vorbis will be there, I'm sure of that

[wishful thinking]

I'm fairly confident that once all the legal wrangling is over and taken care of, then all being well, we will see the Vorbis Encoder bundled with Winamp again.
I sure as hell hope so anyway... pleeeeease!

As to how long it will actually take is another issue

*fingers crossed*

[LIDER]

Thanks DJ Egg for your optimistic words. I will be waiting for this to happen.
But I want to comment older replies: I am almost sure that Vorbis will be free forever! Why? Because it is an "Open Source" project. Is Linux, for example, not free? No, it is free and will be free forever. And companies like Mandrake are not a chickens(according to what imforumman said), because the core of linux is free and always will be free. Firstly Vorbis will have to change its licence to become commercial and not free! I doubt this will ever happen. Open Source is Open Source!

[imforumman]

Originally posted by LIDER
I am almost sure that Vorbis will be free forever! Why? Because it is an "Open Source" project.

Is Linux, for example, not free?

Well... no.

You can go and start a open source project to do something, say bake a cake. But, if someone has a patent on the idea of mixing flower and butter by using a computer, then you will be infringing on that patent, no matter if you use the same code as the patent holder.

This is ehy NullSoft/AOL and the rest of the world has a problem with MP3 encoding. The FhG has lots of patents on methods which are essential to MP3 creation, and you ca use which ever source you want to encode MP3s, but the method is still in there, otherwise you will not get an MP3. So the FhG/Thomson has a right to demand money.

And to Linux: I believe also that Linux does not infringe any Patents, but that is something SCO and IBM are fighting right now! (Just search for SCO IBM Linux on the net and you will find more information than anybody can handle.)

So "open-source" is not "patent-free" and by no means "free". The latter depends on the licence under which the sourcecode is made available. "Patent-Free" is something only time will show.

[auhsor]

Originally posted by imforumman

So now it's up to the industry to accept Vorbis or not to. Vorbis is comming, many companies are already working on Hardware-Players (HDD, CD, etc) and some have even started to sell them (Neuros, iRiver, Nex, Rio).

But sooner or later Vorbis will be there, I'm sure of that: the slightly superior quality at higher bitrates and the massiv growth in quality at low bitrates compared to mp3 and its (I trust) patent free character will give it a great push and help it to at least pull even with mp3.

That is good to hear. I am ripping all my music in vorbis now, and I think it is much better than mp3. It nice to hear that by the time I get a Hardware player, then I'll be able to use my files.

[Alltaken]

i hope FLAC gets suport on Ogg players


Alltaken

[imforumman]

Originally posted by Alltaken
i hope FLAC gets suport on Ogg players

I hate to disappoint you, but this is most likely "never" going to be the case. (Never say never, I know!)

But there are quite a few good arguments why it is never going to happen:

- File size: 30 to 40 MB for a single song is not going to be something (most) people will want to store on their portable players.

- Quality: Yes, lossless Audio kompression is always best, but you need the right hardware to hear the quality. Most experts argue that the only way those expers can in some rare cases hear the differance between a 192kbps OGG and a wav (or lessless compressed audio, ie. FLAC, WavPack) is when using high-quality D/A-converters, vacum-tube amplifiers and hand-crafted speakers made by a few indiviuals in the world. So you'd be looking a Sound-sytem worth 10,000 to 20,000 EUR/$ not exactly made for carrying arround. Oh, and not to forget the studio-like ech o-free sound-insulated room. ;-)

So it's not gonna happen! But, you could switch to WavPack Hybrid (encodes a vbr lossy format (say, 256kbps) and a sepperate "correction-file" (often 25-35MB large) to restore the data as if it had been coded lossess. But don't count on that ever being implemented in Hardware either.

(And yes, it is quite hard to make a hardware player for different codecs, in most cases the standard DSPs have to be completely reprogramed and that is hard time consuming work.)

[swhite]

Rio Karma supports FLAC. It'd be useful in some situations.

Shayne

[squall14716]

Originally posted by LIDER
Is Linux, for example, not free? No, it is free and will be free forever.

Lindows isn't free.

[Alltaken]

Originally posted by imforumman
Most experts argue that the only way those expers can in some rare cases hear the differance between a 192kbps OGG and a wav (or lessless compressed audio, ie. FLAC, WavPack) is when using high-quality D/A-converters, vacum-tube amplifiers and hand-crafted speakers made by a few indiviuals in the world. So you'd be looking a Sound-sytem worth 10,000 to 20,000 EUR/$ not exactly made for carrying arround. Oh, and not to forget the studio-like ech o-free sound-insulated room. ;-)

not to start a format argument here but LOL.

i have a 5.1 channel sound system, its pretty cheap quality but hey it sounds good to me.

i encoded about 40 cd's in 256 Kbps Mp3 files, yes a stupid idea because i dind't use VBR. i thought they sounded pretty good and listened to them all the time.

the only reason i didn't encode them in Ogg was becuase i couldn't find the codec to do that LOL. anyway i ended up finding one and started the long process of encoding in 350Kbos average VBR Ogg files.

while in the process of doing this i listened to the original CDA file, and compared it to the new Ogg file.

anyway in the Ogg file there was muted stereo definition. e.g. a part in the song that was 100% on the left speaker now became 80% on the left speaker and 20% on the right speaker.

the difference with a blind test (e.g. i didn't know which was which file and guessed based on which one sounded better) was so one sided it wasn't funny.

the good quality Ogg file sounded so bad in comparison that i stoped encoding in ogg right then and went in search of a loseless codec at which time i found FLAC. FLAC is one of the only lossless codecs that uses so little CPU resources that it can be implimented on portible players.


all the time i see Techtv saying, if you want your Music(Mp3's) to sound better on your computer go and buy these $400 speakers. well i have news for them, the best thing you can do is to buy another HDD and encode them all in FLAC or another lossless codec.

my avergae speakers sounded awsme on flac files, previously they had just sounded good.

Alltaken